Hi Swistle

We need help! We are expecting our 2nd girl on Sept 22.
Our first daughter is Violet Aviva. Violet was a name that both my husband and I loved and his grandmother was an avid gardener and always grew African Violets, she recently passed away and so this was very meaningful to name after her. Aviva means spring which is my mother’s maiden name. We fell in love with all the meaning to her name.

For our next daughter, we are stuck! We want to name after my grandfather who I was very close to and passed away in November. His name was Nathan.
We are either looking for a name that starts with N or has a similar meaning or sound to Nathan. We are Jewish and I called him Zaidie so we even threw around the idea of naming her Sadie after him.

Anyways, we are stuck! Names we are toying with include Neve,
Nava, Nina, Sadie and then the name that I love the most is Beatrix but unfortunately doesn’t fit really to name after him.

Any N name suggestions would be most appreciated!!!

Thank you!

The first N name that comes to mind is Natalie, for its similarity to Nathan. The look of Nathan and Sadie and Zaidie makes me think of Nadia. Or there’s Noelle and Nora (particularly good with Violet, I think) and Nola, but presumably you’ve already been through the N section of the name book.

The connection between your first daughter’s names and the people those names honor is broad enough to work in your favor when choosing your second daughter’s name. Your husband’s grandmother liked gardening in general, and violets were one of the things she grew; you found a word that means the same thing as your mother’s maiden name. I’d suggest applying these same methods to finding more names. What were your grandfather’s hobbies and interests? What was his job? What was he good at? What was he known for? Did he have any nicknames? Did he have any collections? What was his favorite color? animal? sport? flower? How/where did he grow up? What are some anecdotes he liked to tell about his childhood? Did he have a favorite sister? Did he name any of his children after someone important to him? What were his favorite places to go? Did he travel? Who were his favorite authors, actors, politicians, historical figures, role models, artists, musicians? Did he have any strong views? What virtues did he value? What street did he live on? Where was he born? Was he born in a familiar-girl-name month (April, May, June)? What’s the birthstone of his birth month? Where were his ancestors from? Would his mother’s maiden name work? Is there a feminine version of his middle name? Do you know what his name would have been if he’d been born a girl? Would an anagramming tool find any names within his full name? What is the meaning of his surname? What is the meaning of his middle name? The name Nathan means “he/God has given”; perhaps you could find girl names with the same (or similar) meaning: Dorothea, Theodora, Thea, etc.

Sadie works along these lines, and is a nice style match with Violet. Perhaps you could use Beatrix as the middle name.

Or perhaps you could use Beatrix as the first name, and use Nathan as the middle name. You could feminize it, if you like: Nathania (nah-THAN-ya), for example.

The name Hannah shares many of the letters of Nathan, and has a somewhat similar sound.

Athena, too, though that doesn’t go as well with Violet, I don’t think.

Did he go by Nate? If so, perhaps Kate?

Or it may be that it just won’t work. It happens fairly often that someone really, really, really wants to honor a particular person with a baby’s name, but there just isn’t a good way to do it. If you’re stuck, you might find you get unstuck by looking for different family members to honor, and honoring your grandfather with your memories and stories of him instead. And if you’re planning more children, perhaps the name Nathan could be tucked away for a possible future boy.

Hello! I could really use some naming help!

My husband and I are expecting twin boys on Thanksgiving and are really struggling with names. These are our first babies, and their last name will be C0nlin, which I feel goes with most things. I haven’t found a name yet that I struck out just because of how it sounded with the last name.

So far, we’ve been able to pick one name. We’ve decided on Silas for one of the boys, but are drawing a complete blank on the name for the other boy. We don’t really want matching names, though I want something that at least sounds like it would come from the same family.

We haven’t decided on Silas’ middle name, but we have picked the middle name for the other boy – Prentice, after my grandfather. So, we need a name that doesn’t end in a “s” sound. For example, Silas Prentice does not work in my mind, which is why Prentice is reserved for the other boy. I suggested William for Silas’ middle name (after my husband’s father – I like the idea of both boys having family names for middle names). But my husband is conflicted because he kind of wants to stick with his family’s tradition of assigning animals as middle names (his middle name is (seriously) Raging Buffalo; and his brothers’ middle names are: Spouting Whale, Bear, and Wolf…). I think the animals are a bit random – I have never met anyone less like a Raging Buffalo than my husband. Plus, I think it would be weird to give one boy an animal middle name while the other has a family middle name (my heart is set on naming the other one Prentice, and husband has agreed to that already because it’s so important to me). What do you think? Is that weird to name them so differently?

Anyway, as for the other boy’s first name, the name I like the best is Dugan, followed closely by Jude. However, my husband won’t agree to those. He thinks Dugan is cute, but isn’t sure it’d be a good name for an adult male. And he just doesn’t really like Jude at all. He suggested Max, but I’m not on board with that one (and I don’t think it sounds good with Prentice).

Other names we’ve considered and both liked okay, though not enough to necessarily pick them are: Blake, Luke, Gavin and Dylan.

We also really like Brody, Bryce and Cody, but already have cousins with those names. We really like Jackson (or Jack) too, but it’s too close to my name (which is pronounced Jackie, though spelled differently).

Coming up with Silas was hard enough, so I don’t know how we’re going to find another boy’s name! Any suggestions you can provide would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks for your help!!

Jackie

When I entered this question into my spreadsheet, I put “Raging Buffalo” in the description field just so I could enjoy it again and again.

I do enjoy sibling names to coordinate, and I especially enjoy twin names to coordinate. However, I also think twins are an excellent opportunity to handle a situation where each parent wants something different, AND I don’t think middle names matter very much for coordination: that is, I ENJOY it when it works out for them to coordinate, but I think middle names tend to disappear after the birth announcements are sent out, so coordinating them is a low priority even for me.

In your situation, I think twins are an excellent opportunity to handle two different parental preferences, and I would go with using your grandfather’s name for one twin and your husband’s family’s naming tradition for the other. Those seem like nice balanced honors. I do think I’d lean more toward the Bear/Wolf type of name, rather than the Raging Buffalo / Spouting Whale kind of name. Fox, perhaps. Robin. Falcon. Or maybe Peregrine, to sound a little more like Prentice. I do think I’d be careful not to make the animal name too cool, if possible.

You know, the more I think about this, the less certain I am. I’m picturing one boy having a Cool Awesome Animal middle name, and the other saying, “Yes, Prentice was my great-grandfather’s name.” They feel like equivalent levels of honor in theory, since each represents an honor for one side of the family, but will the BOYS see it that way? I wonder if you would like to do double middle names? Each boy could have a great-grandfather’s name (perhaps your other grandfather, since the animal names are from your husband’s side, or another male honor name from your side) AND an animal name. This might also give you more flexibility pairing Prentice with Silas: Silas Peregrine Prentice, for example.

I was intrigued by the challenge of finding a good animal middle name. Some animals seem too vicious, like the name of the toughie in an over-the-top action movie: Viper, Tarantula, Snake, Spider, Piranha, Cobra, Scorpion. Other animal names seem too comical: Penguin, Squirrel, Meerkat, Gopher, Wombat, Frog, Hippopotamus, Chicken, Chipmunk, Cow. Names that seem name-like are harder to find. Badger, maybe. Buck. The big-cat names: Panther, Lion, Cheetah, Tiger, Jaguar, Leopard. Possibly Antelope. Koala. Cardinal would be nice, though then I’d probably want a songbird for the other name as well: not Cardinal paired with something really tough like Jaguar, for example. Maybe Cardinal and Oriole, or Cardinal and Sparrow. There’s Wolf and Bear, if you don’t mind repeating, and Fox, which is my favorite, and Coyote. Crane and Peregrine and Falcon and Hawk and Eagle. Dolphin, maybe. Otter.

For first names, my first suggestion is Grady. It reminds me of Brody and Cody from your can’t-use list, and I can picture handsome old-time farming brothers named Silas and Grady.

My second suggestion is Jared. Again, I can picture the brothers, working their farm. Also, I knew a couple who could not find ANY name they could agree on for a boy, and then they found the name Jared and both loved it, so I think of it as a problem-solving name.

Ditto for the name Derek: another couple I knew couldn’t settle on anything, and then they found Derek. Silas and Derek.

More possibilities:

Asher
Caleb
Elliot
Emmett
Everett
Ezra
Gabriel
Gage
Garrett
George
Griffin
Henry
Jasper
Joel
Micah
Nathaniel
Oliver
Paul
Sawyer
Wesley
Wyatt

I see a lot of long-U sounds (Luke, Dugan, Jude) and D-sounds (Jude, Dugan, Cody, Brody, Dylan) in your lists. I might look around for other names with those sounds.

D sounds:

Dane
Daniel
Davis (maybe too matchy with Silas)
Dean
Frederick
Reid
Rudy
Theodore
Wade

(I would also have suggested Gideon, Landon, Declan, Hudson, Holden, etc., but I wasn’t sure those worked well with your surname.)

Long-U sounds:

Hugh
Hugo
Joshua
Julian
Louis (maybe too matchy with Silas)
Rudy
Samuel

(I would also have suggested Ruben, Houston, Truman, and Lucien, but again wasn’t sure about those with the surname.)

Dear Swistle,
I am 37.5 weeks pregnant with our second child, a baby girl. My due date is 8/31. Our last name is Brant with a G.
Our son is named William McIntosh, nickname Will. Both names are family names on my husband’s side, with the middle name being my husband’s middle name, his dad’s middle name and his grandmother’s maiden name. We like the idea of giving this baby at least one family name, but are not absolutely wed to the idea. We are having trouble deciding on any name, much less a family name, as the date draws closer. If this baby had been a boy, his name would likely have been Henry Benton (nickname Hank), named after our grandfathers. We may have another child after this one, not sure at this point.

Family names we both like:
Lucy/Lucille
Emerson (nickname Emmy)
Rose (as a middle name)
Victoria (as a middle name)
Aline

Other names I like:
Violet
Grace
Caroline
Catherine/ Kate (feel like this is too “royal couple” when paired with Will)
Jane

Other names my husband likes:
Audrey
Bridget
Gretchen (absolute no for me)

Names we like but cannot use for various reasons:
Elizabeth
Claire

For a good part of this pregnancy, we have discussed naming her either Emerson Lucille or Lucille/Lucy Emerson. My husband is concerned that Emerson isn’t a traditionally female name and that it’s very trendy right now. He has also observed that many of the little girls we know have “E” names – lots of Ellie, Elle, Eleanor, Emma, Evie… My issue with Lucy Emerson is that her initials would spell LEG. Probably not a big deal, I could certainly think of worse three letter words. Other combinations we like: Lucy Rose, Lucy Victoria, Emerson Victoria, Audrey Lucille. We both like names that have nicknames for what it’s worth. We would appreciate your thoughts on Emerson as a girl’s name, middle names that sound good with Lucy/Lucille and any other thoughts you may have based on our lists above.
Thanks for your help!

I agree that Emerson seems to be an outlier on your list: a modern unisex surname name among the non-unisex traditionals and classics (including William and Henry). If you love it and it’s a family name, I think the middle name is an excellent place for it: I like when it works out to use a middle name of a different style than the first name. I also like the way both children would then have a surname middle name. William (Will) McIntosh and Lucille (Lucy) Emerson is a very pleasing combination, and my favorite from the possibilities—unless those two choices are SO parallel, it would make you feel pressured to find something that matched for the possible next child.

It does bother me just a little that this would cause the initials to spell a word, but I agree with you that this one isn’t a big deal: I wouldn’t use Emerson in the first-name position just to avoid the initials LEG. If, however, you like other middle name options just as much or nearly as much, it might tip me toward using one of those. (It would depend too on the source of the family names: if Emerson were your maiden name, for example, versus a great-grandmother’s maiden name on your husband’s side.) I also like Lucy Victoria, Lucy Rose, and Lucy Jane.

If you like Catherine/Kate but don’t plan to use it as a first name, the middle name would be a good place for that: Lucy Catherine Brant, Lucy Kate Brant. I especially like the look and sound of Lucy Catherine.

I also love Lucille as the middle name. The second-syllable emphasis makes it a delight to work with: it sounds good with almost everything! Audrey Lucille is wonderful.

But because your son’s name is so full of family names, and you like the idea of family names, I think that’s what I’d lean toward for your daughter, too. Lucy or Lucille seems to me like the first name that works best from the list, and then I would pair it with another family name if possible. I’d lean toward a name from your side this time, since your son’s names are all from your husband’s side.

Hi Swistle!

Hubby (P) and I are expecting baby #1 in 4 weeks or less and still have not agreed on a boy’s name! Our last name is Kennedy, yep, like JFK. We plan on having 2-4 children.

Up until a week ago I thought we had a name picked, Henry David, but P isn’t crazy about the name Henry anymore. Henry (or Hank) is my #1 choice, hands down. P likes the idea of having family names somewhere in the name, that’s where the middle name of David came from. P was named after his grandfather and likes the idea of naming our boy after his dad to carry on tradition. I’m not convinced. I am fine with family names for middle names but I just can’t wrap my head around calling our son by my father-in-laws name. P does not want to use David as a middle name because our nephew has the middle name David, after my FIL. P would only be happy with David as a first name. I feel like I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. We have decided to discuss options other than David. We tend to like more traditional names and nothing too “soft” sounding. Names that can be shortened or have nick-names are fine. Here is a list of first names that we have discussed:

Henry (Hank) – my choice, P isn’t crazy about it
Mickey- P’s choice, I’m not crazy about it
Charles
Colt
Finn
Jack – we both really like this name, however my brother and sister-in-law told us that when they have kids their little boy will be named Jack- what do you do in this situation? They are not currently pregnant and won’t likely have children for a few years

Middle Name options:
Peter
Paul
John
William

At this point we are both panicking because we just haven’t found “the name” yet. Do you have any suggestions of names like these? Or any other advice?

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

I was relieved to get to this part: “We have decided to discuss options other than David.” Without that sentence, that would have been the aim of my first three paragraphs. It does sound to me as if the name David is out of the running: you are not happy with it as the first name, and your husband is not happy with it as the middle name. Plus, your father-in-law has already been honored, and perhaps it would be nice to honor someone else. The baby has another grandfather: would his first name work, or would that feel just as odd as calling the baby by your father-in-law’s name?

Let’s also take Henry and Mickey off the list. It is the worst and hardest moment in list-cutting, I think: when one parent’s first choice is somewhere near the bottom of the other person’s list. It helps when there is one such name for each parent, so at least it feels fair, if painful.

Colt and Finn don’t feel to me as if they meet your general preferences. They also seem a little awkward to me with your surname: Colt Kennedy is so abruptly alliterative, and Finn Kennedy has the repeating double-N. But if you were in love with either choice and were worried about those surname issues, I’d be talking you out of it because neither issue seems like a big enough deal to cross a name off the list. And, because both are a matter of preference, another person could find both issues to be pros rather than cons. The bigger concern to me is whether or not they fit your style, which is hard to tell from the letter but could be something for the two of you to discuss.

Now that your brother and sister-in-law have announced their intention to use the name Jack, it’s an issue that would need to be addressed. There’s no calling dibs in baby naming, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be a good idea to discuss the matter before proceeding. Even if you had already decided for sure on the name Jack before their announcement, I’d suggest at least giving them a warning so that the birth of your baby wouldn’t be associated with a strong disappointment.

However, in your case, I would take Jack off the list. Telling us your surname, your very first remark was that it was “like JFK.” That’s my very first association with that surname, too. Naming a child Jack Kennedy feels similar to naming a child James Bond: the names Jack/John and James are so common their associations are vast and dilute—but pair them with those very distinctive surnames, and it’s another story. The associations could be considered highly positive, but strong to the point that I would even suggest avoiding names that SOUND like Jack or John or Jacqueline.

This leaves Charles. Or rather, Charles is the stand-out, next to which all the other names fell away without protest. It meets your preference for a more traditional name. It’s a solid choice with a great nickname. It’s very similar in style to Henry, the previous finalist. It’s great with the surname. I like it with any of the middle name options, though personally would prefer to avoid John/Jack even as a middle name. (I might reconsider if the namesake were a particularly wonderful one.)

I also like all the non-John middle name options as first name options. Paul Kennedy is great. William Kennedy. Peter Kennedy. All terrific. But perhaps as first names they have the same issues as David.

To add more names to your list, I’d suggest seeing if you can pinpoint your style. A list with Charles, Mickey, and Colt on it is a list I don’t feel confident trying to build on. Charles and Henry are traditional, timeless classics. Colt and Finn are snappy choices; Colt feels modern and cowboyish, while Finn feels Celtic. Mickey is a nickname name, seldom used as a given name in the United States and strongly associated with the Disney mouse. (I also think of the phrase “slipping someone a Mickey,” especially when I see the related name Finn.) Jack is a combination: snappy like Colt and Finn, traditional/timeless like Charles and Henry; nickname name like Mickey.

Because Jack seems like it covers all the categories of the finalist list, I might look for more names like that. Or I might look for more names like Charles and Henry: traditional choices with good nicknames in the Jack category.

One exercise I’ve found helpful is to think ahead to future sibling names. If you choose Charles, do you feel like you could still choose Colt? If you choose Colt, do you feel like you could still choose Mickey? Which names on your boy-name list do you like best with the names on your girl-name list? Do any names on your list rule out using other names on your list? (For example, using Finn may rule out using Mickey, or perhaps you don’t want to repeat an initial, or perhaps you don’t want to use a name/nickname combination for one child and a nickname name for another.)

Picturing the future sibling group as a whole can also be useful. Imagine your 2-4 children around the table, or watching TV. Imagine them having one set of names, then another; which feels more like Your Family? Do you find you prefer the names to have similar styles, or do you find you prefer an assortment?

I wonder if you’d like Nicholas with the nickname Cole. It gives you a more traditional first name with a nickname that’s more like Colt.

Or Clark has the snappy sound of Jack, without the associations.

More nicknames that come to mind when I think of Jack: Max, Sam, Gus, Dan.

A few more short options: Grant, Reid, Luke, Dean.

Hi Swistle,

I am a big fan and have been reading your personal site since the twins were babies and your baby naming site since it started.

I am hoping you can help me now. It is very last minute. I am having baby number 4 on Tuesday morning!

It is a girl, our last name is Senepapna – A Sri Lankan name.

My older children are Sydney Sumithra, Andrew Michael (goes by Andy), and Natasha Annushika. We had no problems picking their names and went with names we loved, not focusing on any sort of naming group or pattern.

I want the baby’s name to be common enough that everyone knows how to spell it since the last name, she will have to spell for everyone. My husband wants a name that can be shortened to a nickname like all of the other kids.

Her middle name will most likely be Nilmarnie.

Top contenders for me are:
Ivy
Scarlett (Suggested by my oldest since the baby will be red and screaming when it is born)
Vivienne nn Vivi

My husband vetoed Ivy because there is no nickname and does not like the nickname Vivi. I don’t love Scarlett.

If it had been a boy the name would have been Maxwell Patrick or Samuel Patrick.

My husband does not know the sex, so has been focusing more on boy names. The only names he seriously suggested were Elsa or Anna since the older girls like the movie so much. While they are pretty names, I don’t want to use them since it is obvious where the names came from.

I know this is short notice, but if you can help I would really appreciate it!

Sarah

The name Violet would be a sort of combination of those top three names: the long-I, the V, and the botanical theme of Ivy; the -let ending of Scarlett; the strong V-sound of Vivienne. Nicknames could be Vi or Lettie.

Or Eva would have the nickname Evie, which is very close to Ivy.

Or Avery, but I’m not sure if that has enough of a nickname: Avie?

Fiona comes to mind.

Or Miriam.

Or Eliza.

Or Georgia.

Or Sabrina.

Or Noelle.

Or Evelyn: that has some of the sounds of Vivienne; maybe Evvie is different enough from Vivi that your husband will like it. Or she could go by Lynnie.

Or Vienna.

Or Everly, though that’s not as easy to spell as some of the options. On the other hand, I think of most names as needing to be spelled. Vivienne could be spelled Vivian or Vivien; Scarlett could be Scarlet.

Or Lillian: again, similar to Vivienne. The nickname Lily is pretty, and botanical like Ivy.

Or Jillian.

Juliet/Juliette doesn’t have quite the -let ending of Scarlett, but it reminds me of it.

Dear Swistle,

I’m just new to your blog but love the premise of a sounding board for baby names – brilliant!

I am expecting boy #2 November 3rd and we’re are stuck, in agreement, but stuck on what we consider to be an ‘okay’ name. We love every name on our girls list but have never fallen in love with a boy’s name. Our oldest is two years old now and we still feel that we named him an ‘okay’ name with Easton Henry. Not a great feeling two years later.

We like solid, no spell check needed, classic names that aren’t on the top 10 list. Our surname is classic and as a stand in we can safely say Stuart which I find almost everything sounds good with making the decision even more difficult.

We are keep going back to Clark Anderson for baby number two and it’s pretty much the only name on the list. Top of our girls list is Evelyn and I would love to be able to use it for our third and final round. We’ve toyed with other boy’s names such as Harrison, Miller, Arthur but keep going back to Clark. And like I said, we feel okay about it, but it would be nice to have confirmation or have other ideas for similar names and hopefully can fall in love with one with no name regrets.

Originally we did fall in love with the name Anderson however if shortened to Anders, it’s an S on S name…AndersssssStuart and I try to stay away from that. Also, if shortened to Andy, well it rhymes with my name, Mandy, and am not a fan of that either.

So there it is…not sure if I’m looking for other ideas or just need someone to say nailed it and feel confident that it’s the name for us but would appreciate any help you can offer.

Thanks for your help and again, brilliant idea for a blog!
I’d love to be able to use my family as a sounding board but really want to keep the name a surprise until his birth day.

Mandy

I think that if you and your husband have never fallen in love with a boy name, that if you gave your first son a name you considered just okay and even after the name belonged to your son STILL haven’t fallen in love with it, and that if you’ve been trying this whole pregnancy to find a name to fall in love with and haven’t—that it is safe to say it’s unlikely you WILL fall in love with a boy name. You might! It’s true, you might. After 3+ years of looking at boy names, you might suddenly find one you love. But the odds are not stacked in favor of that. At this point I think I’d say, “Well, we just don’t love boy names,” and concentrate on finding “favorite” rather than “love.”

It sounds like Clark Anderson is your favorite: you might not love it, but if all the boy names in the world were put in order of your preference, that would be the top one. That makes it the winner. I think it’s a great choice: a surname name like Easton; fits nicely with Evelyn if you have a girl next time; and a good solid name that should serve him well in childhood and adulthood.

If, however, you DID fall in love with Anderson, I think it’s worth revisiting that. The issues you mention seem minor to me—or at least, not worth ditching the only name you’ve ever fallen in love with and going with one you’re just okay with. I agree it’s nice to avoid an -s name with an S- surname if possible, but I don’t hold nicknames (especially when they’re only potential nicknames) to the same standards as given names. I agree it wouldn’t be ideal to have an Andy and a Mandy in the family, but I also don’t think it means the name has to be eliminated from consideration: at worst, Andy/Mandy seems a little cutesy and has the potential for the occasional unimportant confusion (“Oh, I thought you said Mandy! Hang on, I’ll call Andy”). The fact that it does rhyme with your name makes the nickname less likely to be used, I’d think.

Clark has its own similar issues, such as turning into Clarks with your surname. Clark Anderson Stuart is also a lot of surname for one name. If it’s between Clark Anderson and Anderson _____, I’d say they’re both great names and that the issues with them are about equal; if you love one and find the other just okay, I’d say go with the one you love.

With Anderson, you could use Clark as the middle name. Or it might be fun to find something parallel to Henry. Anderson Arthur, Anderson Charles, Anderson Edward, Anderson Wesley.

I would also think back and see if there are any other names you fell in love with but then eliminated for reasons that might not have been enough to be worth crossing them off the list. Every name has its own set of issues, and finding one you love may be well worth accepting those issues.

If you want to expand your list, I’d start with the Last Names First section of The Baby Name Wizard and would add a few more:

Davison
Meyer
Robertson
Thompson

Dear Swistle,

I love your blog, and have been an avid reader for several years.

I am writing to you because my husband and I are pregnant with our third (and final!) baby, a girl, due in December. As we always planned to have three, we actually thought we’d have more than one opportunity to name a girl! However, our destiny was different, and we have two wonderful boys, Daniel William (Danny) and Thomas Andrew (Tommy) who were born in 2008 and 2011, respectively. Our last name is the English word for Klein, starts with an L.

Funny story about Daniel. The ultrasound technician told us at our 20-week scan that she thought we were having a girl, so we planned around a first-born girl, and chose the name Catherine Esther (after my husband’s mother Kathleen and my mother Esther). As it turned out, Catherine was a Daniel — which we found out long after the baby shower, unfortunately, which loaded us with ruffles, rainbows and pink! But had Daniel been a Catherine, and our second one also a girl, we would have named her Emma Elizabeth (my name is Elizabeth, and it’s also my mother’s middle name).

Now here we are pregnant with our last baby, and having trouble choosing a name. We still like the name Catherine (and aren’t sure what we like better), but this was very much the name associated with our first born (I can’t explain it, but it was a strange thing going through a pregnancy thinking you have a different baby inside you than the one who was born); now there’s a Duchess named Catherine; and now (coincidentally), our boys’ nanny is named Catherine. Also, we think the name Emma has gotten too popular in the interim. And although we like the name Elizabeth, my preference is not to have a baby with the same first name as mine.

I’ve also — since I was a girl — loved the name Penelope, or Poppy, for short. But my husband is not convinced that’s a first name — so we have essentially three names we’d consider as middle names, but no first names.

Finally, we are Americans living in Holland, so with Daniel and Thomas, we were deliberate about trying to pick names that are sort of universal, or at least understandable and recognizable in both languages.

Would you help us? We would so appreciate your advice, and also, in the event that we can’t decide amongst those three, we’d be grateful for your thoughts on giving a baby two middle names. Fun or troublesome??

Many thanks,

The Hollanders

When I was reading your letter and hadn’t yet come to the part about your first name being Elizabeth, my first thought with boys Daniel/Danny and Thomas/Tommy was sister Elizabeth/Betsy.

I feel inclined now to find something similar. I’m not familiar with how names sound/work in Dutch, but I’m thinking along the lines of something with a nickname such as Tessie, Milly, Josie, Sally, Sadie, Ruthie, Lettie, Lottie, Molly, Polly, Nellie.

Because I have both Sally and Sadie on the nickname list, Sarah is my first suggestion for first name. I know a child named Sarah with your same surname, and it continually strikes me as an adorable name. It sounds almost storybook-classic: charming without being overly whimsical. Daniel, Thomas, and Sarah; Danny, Tommy, and Sally/Sadie.

Molly and Polly may be too similar to Tommy anyway, but they also cause a slight problem as nicknames, since both are nicknames for Mary and I don’t think that’s widely known at this point. Still, Mary is my second suggestion: I think “Polly/Molly was originally a nickname for Mary” should be enough explanation for most people, and Polly is close to Poppy. Daniel, Thomas, and Mary; Danny, Tommy, and Molly/Polly. Oh, wait: as I say the names aloud, I find that my instinct is to say “Mary L_____ is/isn’t Very L_____.” Along with the unfamiliar-nicknames issue and similar-to-Tommy issue, that might be enough for me to say never mind. It’s not that it’s SUCH a bad thing or SO obviously an issue, it’s just that anytime something springs to my mind right away, I wonder if it will be something that will spring to EVERYONE’S mind, getting quite tiresome for the owner of the name.

Josephine feels more in line with Catherine/Emma than do Sarah and Mary, so that’s my third suggestion. Daniel, Thomas, and Josephine; Danny, Tommy, and Josie.

But let’s go back to the original choices for a minute. If your husband’s mother were named Catherine instead of Kathleen, I don’t think I could resist the appeal of honoring both grandmothers with one baby. Because your nanny is named Catherine and you strongly associate the name with your first pregnancy, I can see why it might be off the list at this point—but I can also see it being The Name: “I was SO SURE my baby was Catherine—and she WAS, she just decided to go to the back of the line!”

If Emma feels too popular, I wonder if you would like the name Emeline (or perhaps Emmie is too close to Tommy). Daniel, Thomas, and Emeline; Danny, Tommy, and Emmie.

Of the middle name options, I’m not sure which is my favorite. You’ve given compelling reasons for using each of them. I can at least contribute on the subject of having two middle names: I have two middle names and so do all five of my children. I’d confidently declare it to be no hassle at all—except that the reason it’s no hassle at this point is that a few hassles early on taught me how to avoid future hassles. But I can list all the hassles on one hand:

1. When Rob started school, they originally entered his first name as “Robert FirstMiddle”; I sent in a note to have that fixed, which they did.

2. For another child, I’ve forgotten which one, some paperwork was accidentally printed with “SecondMiddle Surname” as the surname. Again, I just mentioned it and it was fixed.

3. Occasionally an account will have room for only one initial. I wanted to choose a “default initial” for each of us, for consistency. This took a little bit of thought, of the kind I find interesting as opposed to burdensome.

4. Very occasionally (like fewer than five times total over nearly two decades), someone taking the information from me has acted eye-rolly about it. I find that intensely annoying. Considering how many people I know with two middle names, it should not be a big/surprising deal. Luckily, the eye-rolly reaction happens very very infrequently, and often from people who also act as if everything else, including my multiple-spellings first name and difficult-to-spell surname, were also chosen specifically to irritate/inconvenience them. So. I’m not sure this even counts as a hassle; I guess it’s more like a minor associated annoyance—along the lines of being annoyed that some forms only have room for one middle name.

Because of the first two hassles, I’ve learned to be quite clear when filling out paperwork, or when speaking to someone who is filling out the paperwork for me. So for example, if someone says “Middle name?,” I say, “He has two. Does the form have room for two, or just one?”; if they say “I can do both,” I give them both; if they say “Just one,” I give them the default middle name. Or if I’m filling out the form, and it’s a paper form, I will if necessary (like if it’s one long line for Full Name) draw little brackets and arrows to make things clear. For example, I might put a bracket around the two middle names with an arrow that says “two middle names”; I might add a note saying, “If only room for one, we use ______.”

When I write it all out like this, it looks like a hassle. In actual practice, it is so little hassle it tempts me to say it’s none—or at least no more hassle than dealing with a name being misspelled or two digits of our phone number being swapped. Once the forms have been filled out for each place that needs forms on the child, it’s done and doesn’t have to keep being done. And in general, we’ve found that people whose jobs involve filling out forms are unsurprised by the concept of having two middle names.

And it seems like an excellent solution in your case, where you have one baby girl and three great middle name ideas. I would choose between Esther and Elizabeth: I love the idea of using your mom’s name, and I love the idea of keeping the Elizabeth tradition going, but using both your mom’s names seems like too much honor for one person. (Using Elizabeth would spare you from any discomfort that might come from using one grandmother’s name and not the other’s, if you do choose not to use Catherine.) And then I’d use Penelope as the other middle name. The full name will end up long (which I love anyway, so it doesn’t feel like a downside to me even though I realize it can be), but will hardly ever be used in all its glory: my daughter’s name has a total of 12 syllables, but everywhere except her paperwork she’s known by just first/last name.

Or would your husband be more keen on the name Penelope if it came with the nickname Nellie or Penny (maybe too similar to Danny) instead of Poppy? Daniel, Thomas, and Penelope; Danny, Tommy, and Nellie. You could still also call her Poppy. With one middle name option removed, I’d be putting another right in its place: Kathleen. It avoids the nanny/duchess/first-pregnancy issues, and more directly honors your husband’s mother, and I think it makes a very pretty middle name. Penelope Elizabeth Kathleen L_____. I like the balance of the name, too: a name you’ve loved since you were little (but not a family name) as the first name; then, the Elizabeth tradition from your side of the family; then, your husband’s mother’s first name; then, your husband’s family surname (assuming it IS his family’s surname).

My husband and I are expecting our first child- a girl, in October. He is pretty insistent that we not name her until she arrives but I want to at least have a solid short list of names going in. Our last name is very similar to Niemen.

Had the baby been a boy he would have been named Charles Gray with the nickname Arlo. Charles after my deceased father, Gray is a family name on my husband’s side. I love the idea of naming the baby after my dad but I really don’t love the options for girls. I do like Charlotte but my husband does not and there are tons of them in my neighborhood.

This brings us to Catherine, my paternal grandmother’s name. Paired with my husband’s grandmother’s name of Jeanne for a middle name it gives our daughter the family names of two amazing women and my father’s initials. The problem is a nickname- the typical options are taken by family (except CJ which I do not like at all) so we are leaning towards Wren/Reine (they would be pronounced the same). Thoughts on this nickname and the spelling options would be helpful since we are sort of at an impasse on the spelling.

The next name we both really like is Mavi (pronounced Mah-vee) it has no family significance but we both like it a lot. My main worry is she won’t have a more traditional name to fall back on if she finds it a bit too unique. I am also worried about needing to defend/explain this choice to people. My husband is adamantly opposed to Maeve or Mavis.

After those two names we are just stuck, which would be fine but I am not sure either one is perfect. Other names we have discussed:
He likes:
Orla
Emily
Astrid
Piper

Some of my favorites that he doesn’t care for:
Juliette- he vetoed because he knows to many people with this or a similar name
Scarlet
Lena
Violet
Isla
Ellis
Vivienne nn Vivi
Louisa nn Lulu

Basically we came up with this list months ago and we keep just re-vetoing the same names and we haven’t been able to add any good contenders. Both of us want something slightly less common, but I prefer getting there via nickname with a more traditional option if she wants it. We both seem to be drawn to names that end in vowel sounds or other soft sounds.

We would love to hear your thoughts on Wren vs. Reine, if Mavi is too out there and to get a few more name options to ponder.

Thank you so much for any help you can offer!

Nicole

The problem of how to spell the nickname from the ending syllable of Catherine reminds me of the problem of how to spell the nickname from the ending syllables of Mattea. It may have to be the sort of nickname that’s verbal but not written; or the kind the starts out as verbal and then you let the spelling develop on its own. The exception, I think, is if you want Wren: I consider that its own name, with its own strong image—so if you want Wren specifically, I think you should start early with it.

I don’t think I’d spell it Reine. I could only figure out how you wanted it pronounced by the alternate spelling Wren. If I encountered that spelling and were trying to figure it out, I might try rine (rhyming it with wine) or pronouncing it like the word rain/reign/rein, but I don’t think I’d ever get to a short-E sound.

Another possibility is to spell the name Cathryn and spell the nickname Ryn or Rynn, evoking Lyn/Lynn—but I much prefer the spelling Catherine (especially if that’s the family spelling), to the point of suggesting spelling the nickname Ryn/Rynn even with the Catherine spelling. I prefer Rynn anyway: Ryn makes me wonder if it’s supposed to rhyme with wine, as well as giving me a slight Ayn Rand feeling. Rynn makes the most pronunciation sense to me, and is no further from the spelling of the full than than Wren/Reine. It does take you from the Ren sound to a Rin sound, though. If you want the short-E sound, I think I’d spell it Renn or Wren.

I have one more nickname option to suggest, though it’s a real reach. I came to it when considering C.N. instead of C.J.—and that made me think of the name Sienna. C.N.-ah.

I think that if you don’t want to defend/explain it, Mavi is probably not the right choice for your family. It’s almost completely unused in the United States (5 new baby girls given the name in 2013), so endless requests for information will be part of the package deal of that name. People will want to know why you used it, where you came up with the idea of it. Spelling and pronunciation will be significant recurring issues.

Looking at your lists, one question I have is whether sibling-name coordination is one of your preferences. There is a wide assortment of styles here, from Emily (very popular and familiar) to Orla (virtually unused in the United States); from Ellis (unisex, used more often for boys in the United States) to Vivienne (very feminine). If you do like sibling names to coordinate, one exercise that can help narrow down your style is to imagine a group of children instead of just one. Picture the kids gathered around the table for dinner, or sitting in the living room reading books: do Catherine and Violet seem more like Your Family? or do you feel more at home imagining Astrid and Piper?

Actually, I’m having trouble even doing this exercise, because the style spread is so wide: I usually prefer to make a group of three siblings, but had trouble even finding two.

It might help us to return to your boy-name choice for guidance. Charles is a very traditional, classic, familiar name, and also a family name for you; but Arlo is a contemporary, unusual, non-intuitive nickname for it. Perhaps THAT is the style that would best suit the two of you: traditional/family names with unusual nicknames. This gives you everything you want: family names, unusual names—AND a more traditional name to fall back on, if the children turn out to prefer that.

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