Update (and photo) on Baby Girl Wingate, Sister to Roland Deen!

Hi Swistle,

I don’t know if you will get to this before I actually have the baby, as I am getting induced Tuesday, but for reasons I’m not going to go into, we can no longer use the baby name we have been planning on THE ENTIRE PREGNANCY. The name we have been calling him, the name we told our other son, the name we love. :-( I am obviously feeling hormonal and have been crying over this all weekend and just feel like poop about the whole situation.

So, *brisk clap*, I’d like some opinions on some second choice names that we had eliminated for one reason or another. We also have a two year old son named Archer (who you guys helped name!).

Here are a few names we like and reasons why they were/are problematic:

Anders (This would have been our pick, but is it too close to Archer? I don’t want my kids to have matchy matchy names. He would probably get called Andy often which doesn’t bother me, and I like that it throws back to our Scandinavian heritage.)

Theodore (I like the name, but I don’t like the nickname Theo, which I’m sure he would be called. I do like the nickname Teddy, but I’m not sure it would grow with him.)

August (Just not sure if I would love it forever, if it’s too trendy, etc.)
If you guys have any other suggestions it would be SO appreciated. Thanks guys!

– J.

I wish right now for an office, with comfortable chairs and a box of tissues and a little table for having tea. I would call you in for tea, and we would sip, and I would feed you petits fours and I would PRY. Because that is my first impulse: to get the WHOLE STORY. I want to know the name that had to be given up, because then I could look for names of a similar style. But then I also want to know WHY it had to be given up, in case what is needed here is a firm discussion of circumstances in which a name does NOT need to be given up, even though in the midst of panic and hormones and dismay it might seem that it DOES.

Well. You have told us what you have told us, and I must assume that if you say the name is absolutely unusable, the name is absolutely unusable. But my first suggestion is still to consider whether it really is unusable. For example, did a friend/relative/celebrity just use the same name for their baby? The name is still usable for you, and your line is “OMG!! I can’t believe it!! That is the name we chose for OUR son! What a coincidence!” And it seems like there are a lot of other situations where the initial reaction might be to strike the name, but where that would not be the only option. Well, we will assume you have one of the OTHER sorts of reasons, the kind where the name is now absolutely unusable.

If we knew what the name IS (and why it was rejected, so that we know how close the new name can be to the original choice), that could help us choose something else that might make you happy. For example, if the name were Miller, and if you just found out something that makes Miller unusable but Meyer or Mercer or Baker or Turner would work, well then! We’d be halfway there!

Archer and Anders are indeed similar: both start with A, both have two syllables, both have six letters, both have an -er- sound; and because the -er- is at the end of one and nearly at the end of the other, they come close to rhyming (Archer and Ander). But they also have different A-sounds, some different prominent consonant sounds, and the endings don’t match even though they come close. They are similar, yes, but if you love the name Anders, and if you are down to the wire, I’d say you have a good possibility here.

In general, when parents strongly dislike the nickname of a name, I do recommend against using it. But I also reassure that right now is a very good time to avoid nicknames: a Theodore would not for sure be called Theo, unless you or he chose it. Teddy might not grow with him, but I don’t see any reason Ted wouldn’t—or of course he could switch back to Theodore.

August doesn’t seem at all trendy to me. While I can’t assure you that you will love the name forever, I don’t see any reason you wouldn’t. And if you like nicknames, I love Archie and Gus together.

Any of the three names on your list will serve your son well. If the name you wanted is indeed ruled out (and I do urge you to make VERY SURE it REALLY IS ruled out before you give up on it) (okay, now I will stop with that), you have three very good candidates to take its place. A few more possibilities to consider (some pulled from the Nordic section of The Baby Name Wizard):

Aidric
Broder (maybe too much -er with Archer)
Emmett
Emil (the -l might blend a bit with the L- of the surname)
Everett
Hugo
Jasper (maybe too much -er with Archer)
Mathias
Miles
Niels
Niko

There were quite a few others that I liked but that didn’t quite work with the surname. Soren, for example, seemed rhymey/sing-song with the -son of your surname. Or Finn: if I say the full name carefully, the -inn isn’t rhymey with the -on; but I found I didn’t say it carefully. And I wanted to recommend Anderson instead of Anders, but that doesn’t work with the -son surname.

Let’s also have a poll for your three finalists:

[yop_poll id=”57″]

Hi Swistle,

We are expecting a sweet baby girl in early-November. We are in a naming conundrum! We have two daughters already, Isabelle Claire and Caroline Lurah. It should be worth noting that Lurah is a family name from my husbands side – the other names are just ones that we liked. Naming 3 girls is just as complicated as I expected!

My husband insists that he essentially named the other two girls, so he has been pretty hands off with naming this one. As you can imagine, this makes me very anxious to pick the “right” name with minimal input from him. Ultimately, he can veto a name he absolutely does not like, we haven’t had many of those – but there are a number of names I know that he is not a fan of). I will add that I want the names to somewhat flow together, or be of the same genre. Basically I’ve just picked from names that we’ve had on our girl list along the way; adding just a few.

Names that I like, along with the rationale why they aren’t -the one-:
— Madeline (this is currently our first pick, however I have a first cousin with this name, while we live in different states and she will be 17 yrs older than this baby, I can’t completely convince myself that using this name is ideal. I have discussed the name with her mom and they are over the moon if I were to use it. Our family is not huge, I have about 10 first cousins total – but I get the feeling that my other family members think it is a little weird to use it.)
— Mary Kathryn (husband really dislikes hyphenated names; I don’t like Mary as a stand alone name.)
— Kathryn (husband has a second-cousin named this and he is not interested in repeating this name.)
— Palmer (not sure that it flows with the other 2 daughters names since it is more of a unisex/ or surname. considered pairing it with a feminine middle name like Kate – but husband thought that a nickname wasn’t ideal as a name-name).
— Brooke (ideally we would have gone with Brooke; we would have been done and done. We’ve had this name as a runner up for daughter #2. However, about 2 years ago my husbands mom got remarried and her new last name is Brooke and her husband goes by Brooke).
– -Georgia (hands down, my all time favorite girl name. Would have used it for the first 2 girls IF the husband was on board. This may be his least favorite name, but he has mentioned he wouldn’t veto it this time around. With that said, my only conflict about using it is that I would then have two daughters nearly-named after states as Caroline could easily be thought of as Carolina.)

I love the idea of using family names, but unfortunately we don’t have any that we like or even convince ourselves to use as a first name.

Please! Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Desiree Heintz

First: do you agree that your husband named the first two girls, and do you agree that this means you should have/get to do the work of naming the third on your own? I think I would start with that. My feeling is that unless that was the deal (“I’ll handle it this time but then you do it next time, okay?” or “How about I get my choice this time, but then you get your choice next time?”), both parents are still responsible for the work of naming. (Unless of course you would LIKE it to be up to you this time.) Perhaps this can be given an amiable spin: he did such a good job with the first two girls’ names, you would really like him to work with you on the third; this is a special parental responsibility and you would like to do it as a team; etc.

It depends in part on what the circumstances were surrounding the choice of the first two girls’ names. Did he get his way on names you weren’t initially crazy about, so he’s graciously backing down to give you a fair chance? (In which case, I’d steer you directly to the name Georgia.) Did you both put in equal work on the names, but the final choices happened to be ones he originally added to the list so he considers them “his”? Or did he in fact do much more work on it, researching and list-making and bringing name suggestions to the discussion and so forth, while you did in fact do much less? (If needed, you could bring out the “Okay! And with the first two I did ALL the BUILDING of the baby in my OWN BODY! So THIS time I’ll choose the name and YOU be pregnant!” But perhaps you are a less argumentative/resentful pregnant woman than I was.)

Let’s go through your list so far. Madeline sounds great to me: very compatible with Isabelle and Caroline. I like that all three have three syllables, and all three have an L sound. I wouldn’t be concerned about the cousin with the same name: the actual input you’ve received is of the thrilled variety, and the only negative input is what you feel others might think: this is not only unconfirmed but also possibly irrelevant (i.e., if they DO think it’s a little odd, is that enough of a reason not to use a name, or is that something you think they’ll dwell on for about 30 seconds after hearing the birth announcement and then never think about or care about ever again?). It’s extremely common for names to be used multiple times within a family, and you say you’d like to use a family name. My only hesitation is the matching -line endings of Caroline and Madeline: if they’re pronounced the same, it seems too matched; if they’re pronounced differently, it seems confusing. This would not be enough for me to rule it out, but it would be a mark against it.

Mary Kathryn and Kathryn both sound like they’ve been vetoed.

If I had veto power, I would veto Palmer. It’s such a clashingly different style from the first two girls’ names. Perhaps as a middle name if you love it.

Brooke sounds as if it’s out of the running.

Georgia is interesting to me. It’s your favorite. Your husband’s position is that he chose the first two girls’ names, and it is your job to choose the third girl’s name, and he will not veto this one. I would be torn here, if I were you: Do you keep looking for a name you both love, or do you say, “Great! You want me to choose? This is what I choose!” It is your hands-down, all-time-favorite girl name and your husband is saying go ahead, so I think if I were you I would go ahead. As a middle name, perhaps, if you decide not to use it as the first.

I think it’s possible a few people would notice and point out that Caroline could be turned (with pronunciation, spelling, emphasis, and syllable changes) into Carolina, which would indeed be the name of a state if we also added “North” or “South” to it—but I don’t think of it as a glaringly obvious issue, or as a negative one. Certainly not enough of an issue to rule out using your favorite name. At worst, it’s a little bit cute/interesting.

More possibilities to consider:

Adelaide; Isabelle, Caroline, and Adelaide
Amelia; Isabelle, Caroline, and Amelia
Anneliese/Annalise; Isabelle, Caroline, and Annalise
Audrey; Isabelle, Caroline, and Audrey
Eleanor; Isabelle, Caroline, and Eleanor
Evelyn; Isabelle, Caroline, and Evelyn
Genevieve; Isabelle, Caroline, and Genevieve
Josephine; Isabelle, Caroline, and Josephine
Lillian; Isabelle, Caroline, and Lillian
Mallory; Isabelle, Caroline, and Mallory
Margaret; Isabelle, Caroline, and Margaret
Meredith; Isabelle, Caroline, and Meredith
Miranda; Isabelle, Caroline, and Miranda
Natalie; Isabelle, Caroline, and Natalie
Sabrina; Isabelle, Caroline, and Sabrina
Vivian; Isabelle, Caroline, and Vivian

Hello Swistle! We are having a major name dilemma for our third boy coming this thanksgiving. Our first is named Jude, our second Jonah. We didn’t set out to name them both with the same initial, we just liked the names. My name also starts with a j, however my husbands does not. We would like a biblical name, as our other boys. We also would like to stay away from very common names (Jacob, James, John).
Can we pick a name that doesn’t start with a j? I go back and forth, I don’t want him go feel left out, but I don’t want to settle on a name we don’t love. We probably will have one more child. If we were to have a girl we had Lucia picked out. Our last name is Cabrera.

Some names we have considered:

Gideon
Titus
Jacoby (same meaning as Jacob)
Luca (Italian for Luke)

We just haven’t found “the one”. Please help us! Thank you!

Julie

Certainly you can name him a name that doesn’t start with J. And if you’re already out of J names, and you’re planning a fourth child, this is definitely the moment to stop: after two it’s still easy to say “Oh, we didn’t match the initial on purpose, it was coincidence,” but after three it’s much more difficult. And if you do have four children, two children out of four with matching initials is much less noticeable/excluding than three children out of four; I don’t see any reason he’d feel left out if he and the fourth child both had names that didn’t start with J.

Since your name starts with a J, one option is to use your husband’s initial for the next child. This gives you an easy explanation for the few people who notice, and also give you an explanation in case the child requests one. But I don’t think you NEED anything beyond, “No, we just chose our favorite name each time.” For children, you can also play the same/different game: “Jude and Jonah both start with J; Gideon and Jude both have a -de-; Gideon and Jonah both have an -on-; Jude has 4 letters and Jonah has 5 letters and Gideon has 6 letters; Jude has 1 syllable and Jonah has 2 syllables and Gideon has 3 syllables…” and so on. The idea is to point out that a matching initial is not the only way in which names can be similar/different.

From your list, my strong favorite is Gideon. Luca would rule out Lucia if you had a girl, and neither Luca nor Jacoby reads biblical to me. Gideon is underused and decisively biblical.

Keeping in mind that I am consulting the Biblical section of The Baby Name Wizard and not looking up what type of Bible story each of these names is associated with, here are a few more I like with Jude and Jonah and with Cabrera:

Cyrus
Eli
Levi
Silas
Simon

If you do decide to stick with J names, I like Joel.

I also like Jared, which I see on the list of biblical names but which doesn’t sound biblical to me.

Update on Baby Boy Hefner-with-a-Hay!
Update (and photo!) on Baby Girl Ronsen-with-a-J, Sister to Charlotte Mae!

Hello there!
A friend from work introduced me to your blog when I was pregnant with my first child. Since then, I have always enjoyed reading your thoughts and suggestions! I am now pregnant with our third child, a baby boy who is due the beginning of December. This little one will be the sibling to our 3yo daughter, Elliot Marie Determann, and our 23 month old son, Judd Hobson Determann. I should include that our last name is pronounced like “better man” with a D. We would like to stick with J names for boys and E name for girls. Of course we had a girl name picked out, Evyn Hazel, but God had other plans;) Fingers crossed that we get to use the name one day!! Also, we like to include a family name in the mix. Elliot and Judd’s middle names are both family names. Some names that we have thrown around inlude:

Johnny Webb (I love, husband hates)
Shelby Jones (he would go by Jones or possibly Jonesy?? My grandfather was Shelby Hughes and some people called him Hughsey)
Jentry/Jent
Jesse/Jess
Jeb
Jules (husband not a fan)

Some possible family names that could be used as first or middle names include:
Webb
Hughes
Wallace
Mac
Butler
Robert

We tend to like names that are different, but not to far out there. I’d like to stay away from anything to on trend or popular! Thank you for your help and I look forward to hearing back from you!!

Emily

Judd and Jeb seem too similar to me for brothers. I find I start thinking one of the names is Jed.

Judd and Jent also seem too similar to me, with a similar Judd/Jed confusion. But Judd and Jentry don’t seem too similar at all, and I don’t usually worry so much about nickname compatibility.

And then Jules and Johnny are crossed off by your husband, so that leaves us with Shelby and Jesse and Jentry. Presumably you’ve already been through the whole J section of the baby name book, but let’s see if we can find some more names to add to the list anyway.

Jones. I assume there is already a reason this has been rejected as a first name choice, and yet wanted to specifically say how well I think it meets your preferences and works with the sibling names.

Jasper. This depends in part on whether you like the repeating -er- sound with the surname.

Jagger. Another with a repeating -er- sound.

Jennings. This has a strong Peter Jennings association for me: not too strong to use it, just strong enough to make it familiar and positive.

Jace. Possibly too on-trend, but I thought of it because of Jess.

Jamie. Similar to Jessie and Johnny.

Jax. Possibly too on-trend.

Janson/Jansen/Jenson/Jensen. I wonder if that ending is a little sing-song with the surname.

Jarvis.

Jay. I love the simplicity of this, and I think it works with Judd without being too similar. Elliot, Judd, and Jay. I especially like Jay Wallace, but I also like Jay Hughes, Jay Butler, and Jay Robert.

Jem. A pleasing To Kill a Mockingbird reference, though does give me the Judd/Jed confusion. I think it’s something about the short-E sound combined with a consonant ending. Jem could also be a nickname for Jeremy or Jerome.

Jim/Jimmy. This has gone out of style as a nickname for James, so that people in the parent/grandparent generation are using it but the people in the child generation are mostly not. In this way it reminds me of Johnny, and I think it has a similar appealing sound.

Joe. I like this as much as I like Jay. Elliot, Judd, and Joe. I like Wallace best again for the middle name; I also like Joe Hughes.

Joel. This one joins my favorites list as well. Underused and appealing. Elliot, Judd, and Joel. I especially like Joel Robert, but also like Joel Butler.

Hi Swistle,

We recently found out that our baby is a boy and while I’m so happy for a baby boy, I had lots of baby girl names that I loved, but very few boy names on my list. I’m feeling a little stuck.

This is our first and due in January. Our last name is Vargas (sounds Hispanic, but the roots of our name comes from husband’s great-grandfather being from Portugal, FYI). My very fave girl name is Poppy. I’m looking for a cute and fun name that doesn’t sound totally made up but also isn’t heard very often. My top boy name was Milo, until recently when my husband told his coworkers and they convinced him it sounded like a dog’s name, now he doesn’t like it anymore, so sad. I also had Luca on my list but husband thinks it sounds feminine- whatever! So now my favorite is probably Theo, though I’m not sure if I love the name Theodore. Def not Teddy.

For middle names, I want something with meaning, such as a family member’s name. I’m considering either my husband’s brother: Adam, my dad’s middle name: August, or my grandfather’s name: James.

Also as an FYI, my husband’s name is David, but he goes by Joey (his middle name is Joseph). We do plan on having one or two more kiddos in the coming years. Hopefully one will be a Poppy!

Thanks a million Swistle!!!!

Lindsey

Sigh. What on earth possesses otherwise pleasant people to declare that a name is “a dog name” or “a stripper name”? If the name were Fido, or Spot, or Mittens, I could see why even a kind and polite person might accidentally blurt out an animal-related remark before having time to think. But Milo? A name that has been used for people since the Middle Ages, and was given to over a thousand new baby boys in the U.S. in 2013 alone? No. Milo is not “a dog name.” Certainly there are many people using it as a name for dogs and cats and other animals, because many people like to use person names for animals, especially names that are cute and fun and not very common. I myself had a cat named George—which does not mean Kate and Will’s little prince has “a cat name,” it only means I used a person name for a cat. Or perhaps it means that names can be used for many things such as people, animals, cars, storms, etc., without usage in one category necessarily ruling out usage in other categories.

My hope is that your husband can be talked around to considering your opinion (and his own former opinion) more highly than the opinions of his co-workers. Milo seems like the perfect cheerful yet solid choice for your family, and it’s a shame to throw it out over this.

Sometimes other people can indeed spoil a name, however, and if this has happened, we will look for something else. (And perhaps your husband could agree not to share the finalists with his co-workers anymore.) Some possibilities to consider, looking for cute/fun and not yet worrying about surname compatibility:

Abe
Ace
Archie
Arlo
Barnaby
Beck
Bo
Brady
Casey
Chance
Charlie
Colby
Corbin
Crosby
Felix
Finn
Finnegan
Flynn
Gage
George
Grady
Gus
Harvey
Hugo
Ian
Jacoby
Kai
Keaton
Leo
Max
Murphy
Nico
Oakley
Oliver
Otto
Quinn
Ranger
Riley
Rory
Rudy
Sam
Ty

Another possibility is to use a name with a cute/fun nickname: Christopher/Kit, for example, or Philip/Pip, or Moses/Moe, or Charles/Chip.

Hello! I have been following your blog for a few years, and so I’m sort of excited to now find myself in a baby naming rut.

I just found out (yesterday!) that our first baby will be a boy! He is due to arrive at the end of January. My husband and I had a boy name and a girl name picked out. I absolutely loved our girl name: Lucy Elizabeth, and I still hope to use the name if we have a girl in the future. Our boy name we had picked was Jesse Matthew (Matthew after my husband).

The problem is now that we know we’re having a boy, I’m not thrilled with the name Jesse. Maybe I am just sort of disappointed I have to table Lucy for awhile, but my husband feels equally lackluster. We still like the name, but we don’t love it. I know, I know–you don’t need to love the name. But we still want to explore other options. Plus, I have a hard time picturing a baby Jesse. I picture Uncle Jesse from Full House or some other long-haired musician/ motorcycle rider/ hipster. Maybe this is just because I don’t know any child named Jesse?

I tend to like old fashioned names that are not super common. I teach, so I want to avoid names that I hear all the time (and have many student associations for). I have never taught a Lucy or a Jesse. My husband, however, likes more traditional and common names and finds my names weird/ odd, but he can’t give me any concrete names that he does like.

Boy names that I like that he’s rejected are:
Abraham (Abe)
Anderson
Simon
Theodore (Theo)
Gabriel (Gabe)

Other girl names I like as a pairing with Lucy if we end up with two girls in the future (we plan on having 3 children) are:
Theresa (Reese)
Penelope (Nell)
Violet
Beverly (Bee)
Annabel

I do like names that are 2+ syllables since our last name (Gray) is only one syllable, and the middle name will definitely be Matthew, after my husband.

Any other boy options you could suggest would be greatly appreciated. Are there Lucy/Theresa style boy names that are “normal” enough for my husband and unique enough for me?!

Thanks so much,
Jamie

Lucy and Theresa/Reese seem quite different in style to me. Lucy is a vintage revival with a British feel to it (Penelope, Violet, and Annabel fall into this category as well). Theresa peaked in the 1950s-60s, belonging more to the Linda/Cynthia/Sharon era. Reese is a modern unisex nickname; Lucy is also a nickname name, but the styles of Lucy and Reese are as different as the styles of Lucy and Theresa.

There’s no reason those two names can’t be used for sisters: many parents choose names of different styles for their children. But the reason I mention it is that it makes it difficult to find boy names in the Lucy/Theresa style: I could find you names that are like Lucy, and I could find you names that are like Theresa, but far fewer names are compatible with both styles. This may be why you’re finding yourselves stuck, as well.

The bulk of the names on your girl-name list and on your boy-name list are of the Lucy style, so I think I would start by looking for more boy names of that sort:

Charles/Charlie
Edmund (perhaps too Narnia with Lucy)
Edward/Ted/Ned
Elias/Eli
Elliot
Emmett
Everett
Felix
George
Henry
Hugo
Jasper
Julian
Leo
Louis
Milo
Oliver
Oscar
Owen
Philip (Pip)
Sebastian
Wesley
William

If your husband prefers more “normal” names, I’d lean toward the William/Owen end of the list—but then of course we’re probably getting into your classroom lists. This may be an area where one of you will have to give way: either he will have to understand about encountering the name in the classroom, or you will have to understand that the names you never hear in class are by definition going to be too unusual for him.

It’s possible, too, that your husband needs a refresher course in naming styles. This issue seems especially common with men: they think of the names of their peers as “normal names,” without realizing those are now the Dad Names and there is a new normal. If this is one of his issues, it can help to mention the names of HIS parents’ generation and ask him to imagine if his peers had had those names as children. Or it can help to have him browse some class lists or the Social Security name list, just to see what names are most common now.

It also sounds as if it’s time for him to make a list of his own. If he’s insisting on a “normal” name but can’t come up with any he likes, a trip through a baby name book may help in one direction or another: either he’ll realize the sort of name he’s looking for is not actually his style, or he’ll find some names to suggest and you can work from there. (This will also show you if he is thinking of his own peers’ names as the normal ones.) I think too that a parent who has been doing nothing but vetoing can become more reasonable to work with after he/she sees how much effort it takes to come up with possibilities and how it feels to have them vetoed.

I wonder if you would like the name John. In some areas of the country it’s quite common, but where I live it’s a surprising choice on a child—like Mary for a girl, where the name seems so familiar you’d think there’d be one in every classroom, but actually there are two Noahs, two Aidens, two Williams, two Connors, a Kyle and a Kylie and a Kaylie, and no one named either John or Mary in the whole grade. John Gray is a very handsome name, I think, and wonderful with Lucy. It may hit that sweet spot of familiar enough for your husband, but scarce enough in the classroom for you.

Hi There!
I am pregnant with my second, due in February. My first is a son, Moses Gabriel Aley. We call him Moses, or Moze (was taken from the film Paper Moon with Ryan O’neil). The middle name Gabriel is after my brother Gabriel, Gabe, who is deceased. My husband is James Donley Aley the Fourth. The agreement when we named Moses was if we had another boy he would be called James Donley Aley and he would be the Fifth. UNLESS a dear brother of my husband were to conceive a child before we did again, he was stuck on the name and we said that would be fine. I understand this is all very unconventional but James the Third named James the Fourth after he’d already had three boys before so it seems fitting to family tradition.

Now, seven weeks after the birth of Moses, his grandmother died suddenly. Mother of James the Fourth. She was Judith. If this baby is a girl, and we wont be finding out until birth, we would like Judith in her name. We have mentioned keeping the girls name we had all set for Moses were he a girl, Iona. Iona is an island in Scotland near where I have family and my deceased brother, Gabriel, and I always both independently wanted the name for a girl. We went as kids. So, Iona Judith Aley? Maybe. But now Judith is really growing on me as a first name. My only qualm is the nickname Judy (much like the obvious yet unforeseen irritation in others insistence that Moses should be Moe, HATE.) And also that it was so popular in the fifties she would have the same name as a lot of retirement aged but not old quite yet women. like, has it been long enough that its cute yet?

My other thought is this. If this baby is a boy, and we do use James Donley Aley the Fifth, I have the crackpot idea of calling him Judd. A shout out to Judith but also a name i just kinda like better. James I like, Jamie I don’t, Jimmie might be a criminal, or awesome, J.D. no way in hell. Oh! and the thing is, the brother is also expecting a baby a few weeks after ours. So if they use the Fifth I am actually at a total loss. Except I still like Judd. Except my fella doesn’t. Jude does not work for me for a male, but absolutely for a female.

I think that is all. Thanks!

It sounds as if a second discussion with your husband’s brother may be needed. If I’m following this, your husband is JDA IV, but your husband’s brother has asked if he may use JDA V for his own son, and you and your husband have said yes. But also, you and your husband have decided between yourselves that if you had a second son, you would name him JDA V. Does your brother-in-law know that this was your arrangement, and so it’s a clear-cut situation of “Whoever has the next boy will use JDA V”? If not, it needs to be clarified in case they’ve decided on the name for sure and now both couples are about to have boys.

If that’s all been made clear already, then the situation as I understand it is that if you have a boy, you will use JDA V; and that if you have a girl and your brother-in-law has a boy, THEY will use JDA V. This leaves your brother-in-law and his wife in a bit of a tense situation as they wait to see whether you will have a boy or a girl, but we will not worry about them until they write to us. (“Dear Swistle, We have decided on a boy name for our baby, but we won’t know if we can use it or not until shortly before the baby is born. Let me explain….”)

On the other hand, you say that your brother-in-law is expecting a baby a few weeks after you, and that if he uses JDA V, you’re at a total loss for a name for your boy. This makes me think the discussion is still needed to clarify who is doing what. If you deliver first as expected, and if you have a boy, you will need to know if the name JDA V is available to you or not—and whether your brother-in-law would feel the same way about its availability to you. It would also be a good idea to see if your brother-in-law is planning to use the name for a future boy even if he has a girl this time. All these things have huge potential for misunderstanding, so I think if I were you I would start by making sure everyone knows what the plan is.

When a child is the fifth holder of a family name, I think nearly any everyday-usage name can be justified. I know two families who are only up to IV, and both have abandoned all pretense of actually USING any of the given names: both children go by names completely unconnected to their proud family naming traditions. I think Judd would work very well, and don’t see any reason you shouldn’t use it—well, any reason except that your husband doesn’t like it. Perhaps he could try to come around to the nickname you like, since he is getting a full namesake?

If he continues not to like it, though, I do think you can pick just about anything you want to use, connected to the name or not. If I hear of a James called, say, Ezra, I blink and wonder what on earth is going on; if I hear of a James V called Ezra, I understand immediately (and feel some empathy for the mother, combined with a fresh dislike of the concept of previous generations taking naming fun away from later generations). I used Ezra just as an example, but actually that would be a very nice fit with Moses.

If none of the other Jameses are being called Donley, I think that might be a very cute option. The name Don is a bit out of style at the moment, but Donley has a surname sound that brings it into fashion.

Does your mother-in-law’s maiden name work as a first name? If it did, that would be another option for an everyday name that would honor her.

Or do you like Judah? It sounds very similar to Judith, has similar biblical / Old Testament connections, and makes a very good brother name for Moses. It has the additional benefit of seeming to come from the initials JDA. You could use Judah as the given name (if it turns out the plan is for your brother-in-law to use JDA V), or as the everyday name for your own JDA V.

For a girl, it’s true that Judith has not quite worked its way around to being fashionable again. It hit its peak in the early 1940s, which means we might start looking for it again in the next generation. This is soon enough in the future that we could think of current usage as being ahead of the times rather than behind them.

I think, too, that the biblical story of Judith is so striking, it gives the name a timelessness it doesn’t have on its own—similar to Esther, or Ruth.

I’m not sure how much trouble you would encounter with people calling her Judy. Certainly the Judiths I know (one my age, the rest my parents’ age or older) all go by Judy—but the use of nicknames has changed since then. All the Jameses I know who are my age or older go by Jim, but if I meet a little boy named James I don’t default to Jim/Jimmy at all, and would in fact avoid it unless specifically told to call him that. It may be the same with Judith.

On the other hand, many people are not tuned into naming trends/practices, or are inconsiderate/scornful about other people preferring a certain version of their own names. There are plenty of stories of people acting fake-joking indignant that a child is not to be called Billy, or Beth, or Kathy—or worse, insisting on doing it anyway. I suspect it is part of the package deal of all such names, but that for the most part you will find your peers and your child’s peers cooperative with clearly-stated preferences.

And certainly Jude seems to me like the appropriate contemporary nickname for Judith, just as Will seems more appropriate than Billy for young Williams. In fact, the ability to update the nickname in that way makes the name significantly more usable. I would even go beyond “usable” and say that thinking of Jude as a nickname for Judith puts the name Judith back on my radar.

I also think Iona Judith is a wonderful choice. Both Iona and Judith work with Moses as sister names; each gives a different spin to the feel of the name Moses.

Hi Swistle,
My husband and I are struggling to agree on a name for our first daughter. We both have a few guidelines that we don’t want to compromise on.

First, his: he wants to name her what we will call her (he has a sister named Katie, not Kathryn or Kaitlin), and he doesn’t like middle names for girls (in his family, girls take their maiden name as a middle name, which is a fine tradition but I don’t think our name (J@rg@ns@n) lends itself to that as nicely as something like, say, Emery or Lee).

Mine: I want a name that will look grown up on a resume, diploma or wedding invitation (I personally think Katie looks silly on formal documents), I love the trendy vintage names but I don’t want something too trendy, and I want a name that is easily pronounced and spelled (my name, Janessa, was constantly written and pronounced as everything from Janice to Jessica. I love having a unique name, but wish the spelling/pronunciation was more intuitive). I’d also like to stay away with names starting with J to avoid last name alliteration, but that’s not a deal breaker.

I want to use Rose as a middle name, after my grandmother. It’s also my middle name. I don’t know whether we’ll use a middle name or not, but just in case I want a first name that sounds good with Rose (which means one of my favorites, Emily, is out, unless we want a horror movie reference in our baby’s name).

Here are some first name options we’ve considered:
Olivia (after his grandmother; I love it but wish it wasn’t so popular. I’ve toyed with “Rose Olivia”, but it’s hard for me to see Rose as anyone except my grandmother)
Abby/Abigail (I prefer the long, he prefers the short)
Hannah (after my great-grandmother. This is what I “wanted to name my daughter” since i was about 12)
Hallie (his sister is having a girl in September and this is her favorite name so we probably can’t use it)
Eliza (he doesn’t like it)
Lydia (I’m not sure if I like it)
Nora
Alexis or Alexandra (he doesn’t want to call her Alex and I’m not a fan of Lexi)
Emma

Do you or the readers have any suggestions? Thank you so much!

Janessa

I find myself quite bothered by your husband’s family’s naming tradition for girls. It seems to me it makes somewhat gross assumptions/presumptions about women and their future plans. I suggest that tradition be stopped right now. Either give middle names to all of your children or none of them, leaving out the assumptions about their future marriage plans and future naming choices. I am finding myself almost too irritated to turn my mind to the rest of the question, as I contemplate your husband’s family deciding this extremely personal thing on behalf of all family women. “Oh, they’ll all get married, and they’ll all choose to take their spouse’s surname, and they’ll all choose to keep their maiden names as middle names, because that’s what WOMEN do in OUR family.” No. Assure your husband that your daughters will still be perfectly free to do the First Maiden Married format he prefers, if they choose to, even if they are given a middle name like their brothers—but this decision belongs to your daughters and not to him. We do not name boys as if they are fully complete at birth, but girls as if they won’t be complete until they are married.

All right, I went and had a cup of tea and a few cookies, and am now ready to face the rest of the question. So I’d say the first decision is whether you will give your children middle names or not. Because you have a middle name (which tells me your husband has personal experience already with the concept that women make their own name choices at marriage, and also makes me wonder why your husband would assume your daughters would follow their father’s naming tradition rather than their mother’s) (I guess I am not QUITE over this topic yet), and because you would like to pass this middle name on to your daughter, and because your husband would like to use middle names for sons, I suggest the middle name decision be “yes,” and I’ll proceed that way for now.

Because your husband doesn’t want to use nicknames but you’d like something non-nicknamey for paperwork, I like Nora, Emma, Rose, and Hannah from your list. All of them COULD be nicknamed by someone determined to do so (Norrie/Nora-dora, Emmie/Em, Rosie/Ro, Hannah-banana), but it’s not the same as, say, Abigail/Abby or Kathryn/Katie. If Hannah is your long-term favorite and your husband loves it too, then Hannah Rose seems like a wonderful choice.

I also think Olivia is great. Again, potentially nicknameable (Liv, Livvie), but not like naming someone Margaret only to get the name Meg. It’s fairly common, yes, but it’s such a pretty name, and the family connection feels well worth it to me. I love how either Olivia Rose or Rose Olivia gives her the names of great-grandmothers from both sides of the family. Both are wonderful choices.

I love Nora for its low nickname potential (I had to stretch to even come up with possible nicknames), and for its vintage charm. I’m not as fond of it with Rose, or with your surname if there is an “or” sound in the first syllable: NOR-a-JOR.

Emma is much better with Rose and with your surname, but it’s even more common than Olivia, and with no family connection.

So my favorites here are Hannah Rose, Rose Olivia, and Olivia Rose—in that order, I think, although so close it was hard to even choose an order. I feel the inclination to stop right there: three great choices, any would be wonderful. But let’s look a little more, just for fun.

If the repeating “or” sound doesn’t bother you (many of these things are purely personal preference), Cora would be a pretty choice.

Cora makes me think of Clara. Clara Rose is beautiful, I think.

Or Sarah. Sarah Rose.

Hallie makes me think of Alice, and yet the two names don’t seem too similar for cousins. Alice Rose.

Or Mallory. Mallory Rose.

Or Ella. Ella Rose.

Hannah makes me think of Anna. Anna Rose.

Willa, maybe. Willa Rose.

Oh, Stella! Stella Rose! I like that a lot.

Or Greta. Greta Rose.

Or Eva, though it may be confused with Ava. Eva Rose. I particularly like that one with your surname.

If Eliza is not quite right, Eloise has similar sounds. I don’t like it as much with Rose, though.

Lydia makes me think of Sylvia/Silvia. Sylvia Rose, Silvia Rose.