Update (and photo) on Baby Girl or Boy Shultee

This is a little bit of a JOURNEY of a story, but what happened was that I had the quote “All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well” in my head, and I wanted to find out who wrote it; I was imagining perhaps Robert Burns. It turns out it was written by Julian of Norwich in the 1300s; I might have encountered it in a poem by T.S. Elliot, although that poem eliminates the repetition of the first phrase, which I think is one of the most gripping parts of the quote, so perhaps I encountered it elsewhere. Apparently churches sometimes quote it; it does have an Ecclesiastes sort of sound.

The part of the Wikipedia article that is relevant to this post is the part where it says historians are not sure if Julian was the writer’s given name or a pseudonym—but it goes on to say that Julian was indeed used as a name for girls in the Middle Ages, so it’s realistic to think it could have been her actual name.

Currently, in the United States, the name Julian is only a little bit used as a name for girls: according to the Social Security Administration, in 2021 it was used for 30 new baby girls. For comparison, there were also 30 new baby girls that year given each of these names: Belladonna, Erza, Liam, Mars, Nile, Rin, Sable, and Waylon. It’s not common. That same year, there were 7629 new baby boys named Julian. This is a name I would stop short of saying was used “exclusively for boys”—but I would probably say it’s used ALMOST exclusively for boys.

I am reluctant to suggest we start using it more for girls, though Julian of Norwich makes it a fun honor name. But the idea that Julian is basically Julia but with an -n, so why SHOULDN’T it be for girls, makes me think of the name Lauren, which was somewhere between the exclusively-for-girls Laura and the exclusively-for-boys Laurence. The -n takes a soft and feminine -a name and firms it up a bit. Alyssa is soft and feminine; Allison is firmed up a bit.

I wondered if we could do that to other names. This is not a task in my area of strengths (I immediately tried to make Anna into Annan and Ada into, oh, Aiden), but I know we have those among us who are great at this kind of thing.

Some names feel like they transform into something less name-like when we add -n: Alecia turns to Alecian, which sounds like someone is from the country of Alecia. Victoria turns to Victorian, which again sounds descriptive rather than name-like. Viola is now a violin.

Some transform into familiar existent names: Ella to Ellen. Mira to Mirren. Linda to Linden. Kara to Karen.

Some names just transform into names used more often for boys, the way Julia does. Stella turns to Stellan. Nola turns to Nolan. Cora turns to Corin. Myra turns to Myron.

Some transform into words: Portia turns to portion; Paula to pollen; Marcia to Martian; Patricia to patrician; Becca turns to beckon. Though actually I feel like Beccan/Beckyn is cute and usable despite the word-name aspect.

But what about Tessa to Tessan? It takes some work to adjust to it, but Laura to Lauren probably felt odd at first, too. Ava to Aven? Lila to Lilan/Lylan? Sarah to Saren? Bella to Bellyn/Bellen? Myla to Mylen? Nora/Cora/Flora should be similar to Laura: Noran, Corin, Florin. I wonder if the method would work best for updating names that feel out of style right now. Tamara to Tamaran/Tamaryn. Lisa to Lisan/Liesen. Monica to Monican/Moniken/Monnikyn. Sheila to Sheilan. Erica to Eriken. Melissa to Melissyn.

It doesn’t HAVE to be -a endings. Kathy to Kathyn/Cathen. Joyce to Joycen. Jess to Jessen. Holly to Hollyn. Tracy to Tracen.

Well, as I say, this kind of thing is not one of my strengths, but I wondered if it would be fun for others to take a crack at it.

Update (and photo) on Baby Girl _______ Ellen Hour

Update (and photo) on Baby Girl Tedwards, Sister to Luke and Noah

Dear Swistle,

We are expecting our third and final baby at the beginning of May. A baby boy! My husband granted me final naming rights for this baby early on in our Secondary Infertility journey, which involved multiple cycles over three years using donor embryos to get where we are now. But I would much prefer to find a name we both love.

We each have a favorite name that we can’t get past. Every other name feels like a second best by comparison. So we are currently attempting to utilize the “pretend those names don’t exist” technique to find a new (and mutual) favorite. It’s not going well because the few we agree on seem too popular for our comfort.

For background, we have a son named Gray and a daughter named Juneau (but spelled like the movie/Roman goddess, not the city). Our last name sounds like Lawpin. I would say the 4-letter version of Juneau is most in line with our ideal naming style. Short rather than a longer name with a nickname, quirky and fun, not commonly heard of. We ideally don’t want to repeat any of our first initials. This baby will have the middle name Joseph in honor of our embryo donors.

My favorites:
1. Cary- In my mind, this is his name. Husband likes but thinks of it as a girl’s name since Carrie was so popular among our female peers born in the 1970s.

2. Zeke or Enzo- Both so fun & spunky, similar to the vibe of our daughter’s name. Husband vetoed as “too hipster.”

3. Tadhg- Husband vetoed as too confusing to say & spell. I agree, but still love it.

4. Atlas- He finds it pretentious.

Husband’s favorites:
1. Raif- Husband is dead set on this name. That’s his entire list! I like it okay, but don’t love at all. Also, I misheard it as “r@pe” once & now cannot unhear it. That is pretty much a deal breaker to me.

Names we both like equally, but just don’t feel quite right: Beau, Felix, Hoyt, Hayes, Hugo, Rhett, Rhys, Soren, Zev.

Names we would consider as new, mutual favorites but think are too commonly used:
1.Theo- Perfect in every way except it’s so popular, especially factoring all the Theodores who are almost all called Theo these days.

2. Reid- A solid choice in the top 300 with no real drawbacks, and we could learn to love.

Please help us find a name worthy of this much awaited baby boy!

Erica & Michael

The name that jumps out to me is Reid. It’s a compromise name but it’s a GREAT compromise name: “no real drawbacks, and we could learn to love.” It’s four letters like the other two kids’ names, but has its own distinct sound. You’ve got it under Too Common, but as you’ve noted it’s in the 300s, and that is quite uncommon. It’s about as common as Jensen, Gunner, Prince, Hendrix, and Maximiliano. If we combine it with the spelling Reed, it’s about as common as Alejandro, Dawson, Abel, Tristan, Karter, and King.

I agree that Raif should be out. It’s very, very, very unusual in the U.S.: only 9 new baby boys were given the name in 2021, with another 17 given the spelling Raife. In addition to your deal-breaking issue, I notice it forms the words “flaw” and “flop” with your surname, and I think it will be misheard as Ray Floppin. And it shares sounds with Gray in a way that is displeasing to my ear: three-quarters of the name is the same.

I also think Cary should be out—to my surprise, because I would like to see that name come back into style for boys. But it is three-quarters the same letters as Gray, and the G and C are very similar-looking letters, and I find it just BUGS ME. If I answered this again tomorrow, I might dismiss all those concerns as ridiculous; but today, this morning, I don’t like Gray and Cary together, and I am bothered by how similar they look, and I feel that pretty soon both boys would be called Gary.

I like Reid! I think Reid is great with the surname and in this sibling group! Reid Lawpin! Reid Joseph Lawpin! Gray, Juneau, and Reid! I vote learn to love it!

Hi there
My brother passed from cancer 5 years ago. It devastated my family as he was the youngest of 16 children. He was a wonderful fun loving dad, brother, son and friend. I was so happy and recite to hear that his only son and wife are expecting a boy. Though my happiness was diminished when I heard they are not including any of my brother’s names in their son’s name.
I am shocked and deeply saddened and I know my other 14 siblings will as well. Seems they have chosen a first name which is not related to anyone in our families, and his wife’s brothers name will be the baby’s middle name. AITA to assume that they would honour my brother by including his name, and to feel this is dishonouring my brother’s memory for excluding him.

Aunt anonymous

I am so sorry about your baby brother; what a terrible loss.

I don’t know the dynamics of your particular family. Perhaps your nephew has a long history of using symbolic behavior to hurt and exclude members of his family. Perhaps you know him to be someone who would want to dishonor his father’s memory, and as someone who would want to do that in a way that would shock and hurt his aunts and uncles. In that case, it may very well be that he is using his child’s name as a way to dishonor his late father’s memory, and as a way to hurt you and your siblings, and as a way to symbolically exclude his late father and the entire rest of his family from this baby’s arrival.

Is that a theory that rings painfully true for you in your heart, given what you know of your nephew and his relationship to his family and father? Or did you find yourself bristling at this portrayal of your nephew, because it’s so utterly unlike him? My guess is he doesn’t have a long history of trying to hurt you, or of trying to dishonor his father’s memory, or of trying to symbolically reject his father and his entire family. My guess is that he’s a good boy and you love him, and that he misses and grieves for his father and was devastated by the loss of him, and that he wishes nothing more than that his father could be there to see his first grandchild. My guess is that this is a very simple matter of him not seeing the choice of his baby’s name at all the same way you do.

It is in no way wrong for your brother’s son and daughter-in-law to name their baby without using that baby’s name as one of the ways they honor and remember your brother; it does not have to mean anything negative about how they feel about your brother, or about how they honor your brother overall, or about how they remember your brother. It is in no way wrong for them to choose a first name that doesn’t honor anyone from either side of the family; it is in no way wrong for them to use a middle name that honors someone from the mother’s family; it is in no way wrong for them to use your niece-in-law’s family surname (or whatever surname they used) instead of your brother’s/family’s surname.

Using someone’s name is an honor, but NOT-using a name does not mean ANTI-honoring: a baby’s name is not a slap in the face to every single person the baby is NOT named after, and thank goodness for that. I’m not saying a non-naming CAN’T be used as a slap, because it certainly can be, but it’s not automatic: the intention has to be there. I can imagine many, many reasons they might have for thinking it best not to use your brother’s name, especially when his death was and is such a devastating event in your family’s history. It could be that they think they are sparing you pain; it could be they are sparing themselves pain; it could be they don’t want to saddle a baby with such an important and emotional family name so soon after the loss of your brother; it could be that they wish to honor your brother by saving that name for their memories of him; it could be that they’d prefer to use the name for a non-firstborn; it could be that your nephew’s wife also has a recently-lost beloved family member, and your nephew/niece-in-law felt that using either name first would hurt the other side of the family, so they decided to use neither. Or of course it could be that the name is by coincidence the name of your nephew’s wife’s serious ex-boyfriend who continues to send her inappropriate emails about his enduring feelings, or that they just don’t like the name, or that in general they are of the “everyone should have their own name” philosophy and don’t want to use any honor names as first names. It could be any number of reasons, but I think it’s unlikely that the reason they didn’t use your brother’s name is that they wish to hurt you and your 14 other siblings, and to dishonor the memory of your brother, and to symbolically exclude your brother somehow.

Perhaps you know to calculate that likeliness differently, based on your own experience of your nephew. But if not, then my vote is that you are solidly in the wrong—that you made a strong assumption that turned out to be incompatible with reality and are now reeling a little from the shock of THAT, rather than from any act of hurtfulness/dishonor. Once you have given yourself some time to adjust, I think you should put SIGNIFICANT effort and energy into not allowing that mistaken assumption to continue to diminish the happiness you would otherwise feel at the arrival of this new family member, this baby descendant of your baby brother, this sweet new little life in the family.

Hi Swistle –

You have helped some friends, and I am hopeful to hear from you!

We have a baby girl coming this May (May 18th to be exact via csection), and will be joining big brother Griffin Shay (my maiden name) Hoefer and sister Stella Grace Hoefer.

We have a list of names, but nothing seems to be sticking just yet.

Top Contenders:

Lane/ Laney/ Lanie
Zoe
Mary Jane (my husbands fave but I don’t like the nickname MJ)
Harper
Georgie
Layla __ but I like the pronunciation (Lie-La) so I am not sure how to spell that…

Middle names, Mary and Mae are both family name options and a random one I like is Louise.

Thank you!!

Megan & Stephen

[Note to commenters: I clarified pronunciation of the surname and it’s HOE- like garden hoe, -fer like the end of Jennifer.]

I wouldn’t have thought to use the nickname MJ for Mary Jane, though as soon as you mentioned it I could see how easily it might happen. And of course she could decide to use the nickname herself as she gets older, so you’re wise to take it into account. On the other hand, we have had so many stories here of people who disliked a nickname, and then on their own dear child the nickname just FIT and they wondered why they ever disliked it, so that’s something to keep in mind as well.

Harper Hoefer feels like A Lot of alliteration, with the repeating H- and the repeating -er. Zoe Hoefer is less of an issue, but I do notice the sound of the Zo/Hoe repetition, and visually I notice the Zoe/Hoe repetition; those don’t seem like dealbreakers, just things to think about ahead of time.

If you like the pronunciation Lie-la, I would spell it Lila or Lilah; the usage of the two spellings is close to equal in the United States right now, according to the Social Security Administration: in 2021 (the 2022 information is expected out in May), there were 1,329 new baby girls named Lila and 1,242 named Lilah. My own preference is Lila. The name Lila/Lilah repeats the -la ending of Stella, and Stella/Lila have a lot of Ls between them; this could be a plus or a minus.

Georgie is a nickname name, and the other kids don’t have nickname names, so my own inclination would be to name her Georgia (or Georgianna, Georgina, etc.), and then call her Georgie. Griffin, Stella, and Georgia. Laney/Lainey is nicknamey, but doesn’t catch my attention to the same extent.

I don’t want to cause the kind of trouble I am normally trying to talk parents out of caring about, but I notice your first two kids are G.S. and S.G., and they both have doubled letters in their first names, and they both have one-syllable middle names with a long-A sound. (This blog may have broken me.) How many more children would you like to have, is I guess my question. If this is your final child, it might be fun to go for one more of the same/similar; if you’re thinking of having another after this one, I would break all emerging patterns right now and on purpose. Georgia Mae would be a great sort of in-between: a G-name and a long-A one-syllable family middle—but not going overboard with a doubled letter and an S- middle name (though you could use Sage OKAY I’LL STOP NOW).

Let’s look for some more options! Griffin, Stella, and:

Louise! I pulled this from your middle name list. I think it sounds great in this sibling group: all three names familiar but a little unexpected, and a great assortment of sounds. Louise Hoefer; Louise Mary Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Louise.

Violet! Similar in sound to Lila! Violet Hoefer; Violet Louise Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Violet. Cute nickname Lettie if you want it.

Lydia! I think this came to mind because of Lila, and also because my second suggestion was going to be Claudia, but then I wondered if “Claudia Hoefer” brings Claudia Schiffer to mind. Lydia Hoefer; Lydia Mae Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Lydia.

Nadia! Another because of Claudia. Nadia Hoefer; Nadia Mae Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Nadia.

Fiona! Bianca! These come to mind because of Stella and Lydia: they all live in the same folder of my mental filing cabinet. Fiona Hoefer (is that repeating long-O a bit much?); Fiona Mae Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Fiona. Bianca Hoefer; Bianca Mary Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Bianca.

Simone! Because of Fiona. Possibly another one where the repeating long-O is a bit much. Simone Hoefer; Simone Mary Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Simone.

Ivy! One of my own favorites. Ivy Hoefer; Ivy Louise Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Ivy.

Sabrina! Sabrina Hoefer; Sabrina Mae Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Sabrina.

Emmeline! This is if you might wish to have a little fun with the doubled letters; it also lets the girls call themselves Ella and Emma if that appeals. Emmeline Hoefer; Emmeline Mary Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Emmeline.

Linnea! Another double-letter name, just for fun and because I love it with this sibling group. I went to school with a Linnea and I have never gotten tired of her name (there may be more than one pronunciation; hers was lynn-NAY-ah). Linnea Hoefer; Linnea Mary Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Linnea. Cute nickname Linnie, similar to Lanie from your list.

Carys! This kept coming to my mind, for reasons unknown. I thought of it, thought “Oh, I don’t know, that doesn’t necessarily seem like it would go on this list of suggestions,” and then I was typing along and it came to my mind again, popping up like a fresh idea. This happened four times, so I’m adding it. Carys Hoefer; Carys Mae Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Carys.

Clara! Clara Hoefer; Clara Louise Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Clara.

Florence! A relatively recent addition to my own favorites list. Florence Hoefer; Florence Mae Hoefer; Griffin, Stella, and Florence.

Hi Swistle,

I was wondering if we could have a discussion about names from pop culture that we love or loathe?

Mine “loathe” is Harper, from the show The White Lotus. No opinion on the name itself, but the character Harper is ~ 40 years old. The name doesn’t appear on the Social Security database until 2004. I’m annoyed that the writers took a top 10 name that’s in the zeitgeist and slapped on a character that is old enough to have a *newborn* Harper.

My “love” comes from the Upside Down Magic books that I’m currently listening to with my daughter. Names such as Anemone and Fuchsia are particular pleasing when they hit my ear.

I would love to hear the list from you and others!

Marissa

I wanted to try to think of more examples from my own experience before posting this, but I can’t wait, I NEED to hear other people’s answers. I will add more of my own if I think of more. I KNOW I had something that was similar to the Anemone/Fuchsia example, but I cannot think of it.

I had a strongly negative reaction to a book I tried reading quite a long time ago—20 years? more? it all runs together at this point. But there was a grown woman, like FORTY OR FIFTY YEARS OLD grown woman, named Madison. And it was written in present-day-at-that-time. So it was impossible: you can tell what year the movie Splash came out by searching the Social Security Administration Beyond the Top 1000 data base for the name Madison: the movie and the name for girls both happened in 1984. The author probably thought of it as a pleasingly businesslike name with a pleasingly presidential association. But it didn’t work in the early 2000s (or whatever it was) on a woman in her 40s. (It couldn’t even work NOW on a woman in her 40s, but we’re getting there.)

I work in a library and have seen so many plot synopses on book covers where I thought “Yes, those are clearly names from your baby-name lists.” Can I think of any actual examples at the exact moment such examples would be both relevant and interesting? No I cannot.

For awhile I felt as if EVERY FEMALE PROTAGONIST IN A NOVEL was named Kate. Just, ALL of them.

I encountered the names Penelope and Genevieve in books, and thought “OH!!!” and added them to my own list. It was just as those names were coming into style, but I hadn’t realized it yet.

I am pretty sure I first fell in love with the names Cordelia and Winifred while watching the TV show Angel.

And of course I, like everyone else my age, fell for the “long feminine names with short boyish nicknames” trend after watching shows such as Who’s the Boss? and Sisters.

[Edited to add:] Back to say that I have just started reading a book that features the friendship of two women born in 1973 and named…Rose and Charlotte. Those names are not at all impossible for 1973: there were over a thousand of each born that year. And if they were sisters, I would assume their parents had old-fashioned tastes, and/or that they used family names. But, for comparison, there were 62,447 Jennifers born that year, and over 26,900 each of Amys and Michelles. The odds of a 1973 Rose and a 1973 Charlotte meeting as adults, becoming friends, bonding over all their many shared experiences, and NOT bonding over how weird it is that they were both given terrible old-lady names they hated as children and now are amazed to hear on babies EVERYWHERE are too tiny to allow for the suspension of disblief. I’m only partway through the book, though; perhaps they will do this soon.

Well, okay, we did girl names, it seems fair to also do boy names. Same rules: see if you can access your subconscious mind and let a boy name (or names) APPEAR in your mind, rather than for example mentioning the carefully crafted name you already know is at the top of your list. If a name appears and it’s a name you dislike, you can try again, because brains can be strange. If a name appears and it’s a name you like but it wouldn’t be your first choice, or it wouldn’t work with sibling names or your surname or with what the other parent would like, don’t worry about any of those AT ALL, because this is just a game and we are not actually choosing these names, merely playing around.

Quite awhile ago now, I had a similar dream in which I was suddenly naming a boy, and in that dream I chose Oliver Frederick, and I’ve thought of that dream often enough over the years that I have significantly skewed my own playing of this game! So in my case I thought, okay, NOT Oliver Frederick, NOW which boy name SPRINGS TO MY MIND, and I immediately thought George. Which is a little bit funny, because one reason we didn’t use the name Oliver is that we’d had a cat named Oliver, and we also had a cat named George. (I LEARNED MY LESSON with those two cats: the names that seem too whimsical for a real baby and therefore perfect for a pet are often the names that will NOT seem too whimsical about a decade later, and then there will be Regret.)

I definitely do have George on my boy-name list; I don’t know where I’d rank it in terms of how likely we’d be to use it, but…medium-likely, I’d say. I think for sure it would be one of the half-dozen finalists.

I dreamed last night that I had a baby unexpectedly, didn’t-know-I-was-pregnant style, and it was a girl, and of course I hadn’t had my usual eight months or so of thinking about baby names. And, as is the way dreams go, I couldn’t find a baby name book, and I couldn’t gather my thoughts properly, and I kept getting distracted by other things.

BUT, in the dream, the first name that came to my mind was Josephine. Then, as I scrambled to think of more options, I came up with Rose and then Genevieve. Those are all actual names from my actual baby-girl-name lists, but not necessarily in order of which names I would actually use on an actual baby girl, so I was interested to see which names my dream-brain accessed first.

What I am wondering is: If you had a baby girl to name, right now, unexpectedly, what names spring FIRST to your mind (and/or after a very short delay, as in my dream)? You’ll have to play this game FAST to avoid contaminating the results, but you can ignore names that spring to your mind if they’re names you dislike.

(If you are in any way similar to me temperament-wise, you will need to be reassured: this is only a game; the names don’t actually have to work with your surname or with sibling names or with what the other parent would want; none of this is in any way binding; the point of this game is to see which of the names you like come first to your mind.)