Dear Swistle,

There is a naming dilemma I am struggling with that I have tried to find a solution for on the internet, but I can’t find anything about it, and I really can’t figure out what to do. Therefore I am hoping you have some ideas.

I am not currently pregnant nor will I be within the next 3-ish years; so I want to stress that this is not an urgent question. I’m sure you get many urgent questions, so don’t worry if you don’t get to answer mine soon (but I hope you will)!

I am not sure which last name to give my future children, because of my partner’s last name. It is a 4-syllable, 10-letter, Slavic last name, ending in the common -ović like 99% of last names in the Balkan area of Europe, where he is from. People that are not from the Balkan, aka most of people we meet (we live in Western Europe), struggle to pronounce and remember it, and those that do try, kind of always mess up at least the ending slightly.

My name is 1-syllable, 5 letters, and though it is not a super *well known* last name where I live, it is a very basic noun in the language we speak, so everyone in this country that hears or sees it can pronounce and spell it easily, and people from other, surrounding countries, though not knowing the word, tend to spell and pronounce it correctly because of its simplicity.

So you might already be able to guess my problem… I am concerned that my partner’s last name would be disadvantageous for our hypothetical children. It is long, difficult to spell and pronounce, and very very obviously *foreign*. In the Balkan, people do not generally give middle names, but my parents actually gave me not one, but two, so I always thought it would be cool to also give my kids that first name-middle name-middle name-last name pattern, to mimic my own (plus the fact that I would like to honour some family members). But with a 4-syllable, difficult last name, adding 3 given names sounds ridiculously bulky, besides not fitting on most papers.

I’ve also heard and read a lot about employers or even teachers negatively judging people with foreign-sounding names… I wouldn’t want my child to face discrimination. My parents picked an English first name for me and I have noticed its advantages throughout all my life, though I have to say my partner and I are both only in our early twenties, therefore neither of us have any real experience with serious job interviews yet.

The problem is that my partner really, really values his homeland and his culture and is very against, “accommodating ignorant westerners” as he calls it. Illustration: when I mentioned someone in his family choosing the English version of a Slavic name for their child so that it will blend in better in a international environment, he thought it was very ridiculous, and that one should always stick to one’s own cultural spelling (even after I stressed the pronunciation issue).

I understand that a link to heritage is important for a child. Our children will most likely grow up where we are currently, so my country. This means that they will grow up in this culture primarily, speak my native language primarily (though we do aim for bilingualism) and spend most of their time here. It would therefore, I thought, be fun if they felt at least linked to their dad’s family’s homeland through name.

It’s gotten a point that I’m not even sure how to bring any of this up with him (and I am happy I won’t have to for another few years), as I am honestly sure he will not be happy with the thought of giving his children anything but his last name. That is to say, generally our communication has always been really good, and we work out our cultural differences and arguments very maturely. This is the first topic I have ever come across that I’m not sure we can reach an agreement on.

So. I am a bit stuck. I do not intend to ever change my last name to his, for identity and feminist reasons. However, considering how much he values it, I would have probably not even minded passing on his last name to our hypothetical future children and thus given them their link to their heritage, if it weren’t for the damn complexity and “exoticness” of that name!

Obviously hyphenating is not an option because it doesn’t get rid of the long-difficult-name-scenario. The option of given different children different last names is not accepted/allowed where we live.

So what would you say? Which last name scenario should we pick, or for which should I at least vouch? Is the link to heritage and tradition worth the foreignness and complexity? Is the easy name worth the painful break from tradition and culture? How would I convince myself into feeling comfortable if we picked the former?

How does one begin to bring up such a touchy topic with their partner?

I’ll be amazingly grateful if you find a chance to answer this question. Thank you so much for your help and your time!

Best regards,

M.

There are two main topics here. One of them is the topic of the name itself: is it okay to add two middle names to a really long surname, what about non-phonetic-in-the-culture-where-you-live spellings, how to deal with having a long unusual surname, etc. The other is the topic of a partner who calls another culture ignorant, calls other people’s naming decisions ridiculous, will only be happy if the children have his surname, and is prickly enough on the whole issue that you are worried about having to discuss it again.

I will take you at your word that your partner is otherwise loving and accommodating, that normally he communicates kindly and fairly and maturely with you and with others, that he is not overall a scornful and dismissive person who makes you uncomfortable even thinking about bringing up topics with him, that valuing his own culture/heritage does not mean he routinely sneers at yours, and that there is no reason for this particular issue with the name to be setting off red lights left and right for me. Let’s assume that for him this is one of those weird hot-button issues of the normal sort that nearly everyone has, and that we are safe to think you would not be considering having children with him otherwise.

If that is the case, then the first thing I will say is that for many people there seems to be a big difference between Hypothetical Baby-Naming and Actual Baby-Naming. Some people can’t even think seriously about it until there is an actual baby on the way or about to be on the way. Furthermore, it is common for people to be critical of others until they are themselves in a particular position: for example, someone might scoff and eye-roll about parents “using television as a babysitter” right up until the point where they are on their knees blessing the dear people at PBS Kids for the half-hour break that keeps them from getting into the car and never coming back.

And so I think my first piece of advice is to wait awhile before bringing the topic up again. If it comes up naturally, such as when a friend or family member has a baby and names it, I suggest using those opportunities to make mild remarks disagreeing with what you disagree with and agreeing with what you agree with. If he says something is ridiculous but it’s something you think is a good idea, say mildly that actually you think it’s a good idea. I don’t think it’s necessary to hash out every detail beforehand or have fights about other people’s baby names, but it’s good to keep him reminded of your views so it’s not a surprise later on. If he is completely closed to disagreement on the issue and/or he dismisses/disparages your opinions, this is valuable information as well.

Now, about foreign names. I have heard of those studies that show that interviewers can unfortunately be influenced. However, as I understand it, this is mostly when (1) the name is fully foreign—that is, both first and last names are very unfamiliar, and (2) when it’s a name from a group that faces discrimination within that culture. So, for example, in the United States, someone named Celeste Laurent is not likely to have issues with her name, even though both parts of the name are French. You will know better than I whether someone with a full name from your partner’s country would face discrimination in the culture in which you live, and how unfamiliar/difficult first names from his country would be.

In the U.S., ancestries are so varied that I think of a surname alone as not communicating much to anyone, and it is absolutely par for the course to have one’s surname mispronounced. I used to work in a pharmacy, and I can’t count how many times I had to take a wild stab at pronunciation, or how many times I had to be corrected. My own surnames (maiden, and now married) were/are constantly misspelled and mispronounced (we have been informed by native Dutch speakers that WE do not even pronounce it correctly), and yet I don’t feel I experience any discrimination for it. I think it would be absolutely fine here to have a long, hard-to-pronounce surname, and paired with a familiar first name I don’t think there would be problems. I am not sure if it is the same where you are, but if you were here I would be dismissing that as a non-issue: if it’s important to your husband to use his surname for the children, and it is not equally important to you to use your surname for the children, then I’d say go ahead and use his surname without fretting.

I suggest, however, making it clear from the beginning that this is not something that is being done by default. That is, my guess is that it will turn out to be important that he understand that the children could have either your surname or his (or some other option), and that the two of you are deciding together whose it will be, and that choosing to use his surname means you are agreeing to give up on your absolutely equal claim to use yours. Then when it is time to discuss the first name, you are both aware of the process as it has happened thus far: i.e., that he has gotten his way on the surname issue, and that his culture/heritage/homeland/preferences have been very strongly represented in the children’s names already, and that now it is time to make sure your culture/heritage/homeland/preferences are also represented.

I wouldn’t rule out a first name just because it’s difficult: one of my kids goes to school with an Aoife, and it does lead to constant spelling/pronunciation issues for her, and yet her whole class now knows to pronounce it Eefa, and I just spelled it correctly for this sentence without having to look it up. But I won’t deny that a full-on “foreign” name is something I would not personally want to deal with. It’s one thing to be Kristen (a very familiar U.S. first name) DutchSurname, but would be quite another to be Marjolijn DutchSurname.

Does this mean I think you shouldn’t go full-on Balkan for your kids’ names? No, no. For one thing, I don’t know how things are where you live, and for another thing there are TONS of people who DO go full-on cultural for names and yet the streets are not filled with wild laments of regret, so it’s really up to each set of parents how much spelling/pronouncing they want to handle.

I would, however, say that if you give your children his surname, you are already giving them a nice big hearty dose of culture/heritage from their dad’s side. The first name, then, seems like it could be a name from your culture/heritage, or perhaps a nice international name that bridges the two cultures. It sounds to me as if taking names from his culture and spelling them more accessibly is not a compromise he is willing to make, so I’d advise either choosing names from his culture that are already easier to deal with internationally, or else choosing names that are not from his culture.

I am also absolutely in favor of using three given names even with a very long surname. Ridiculously bulky is in the eye of the beholder, and the paperwork issue doesn’t bother me a bit. My kids have four names each (the second middle name is my surname), but of course most people only know/use the first-last; and when the two middle names don’t fit on the paperwork, we use one or two initials. I worried ahead of time that it would be Too Much Name (especially for my daughter, who has unusually long names), and I cannot overemphasize what a non-issue it’s been.

And again: you are taking your partner’s strong wishes about names into account, and he should also be taking yours into account. No matter how strong his preferences and feelings are, you are equal partners in choosing names for your children.

Update on Baby Boy or Girl Waspick-without-the-P

Hi!

We just read your blog regarding how to use a suffix and need your help. I am so confused.

This is story…my husband’s (Todd Anthony Surname) father (Frank Edward Surname) was named after his great grandfathers brother (Frank Edward Surname). We had a baby 2 weeks ago and named him Frank Edward Surname III (on his birth certificate) after confirming with several family members. After doing some additional research we are finding different rules, customs, and advice all over the internet.

At this point we think the baby should be Frank Edward Surname II as his grandfather never used a suffix and there was such a large gap between Franks. Any advice?

Much appreciated!

Renee

I think this is one of those happy situations where it really doesn’t matter what you do, and you can go with what seems right to you. Suffixes are designed to prevent confusion and to draw attention to a naming tradition. As you’ve found, opinions are all over the place about how they ought to be used. The government does not consider them part of the legal name even when they are on the birth certificate (though you may find an individual clerk who begs to differ, and may need to call for his/her supervisor); you can use them or not, depending on your own preferences.

In this particular case, my own slight preference would be to have used no suffix. It doesn’t seem necessary for avoiding confusion, and in fact contributes to confusion since your husband is not Frank Edward Surname Jr. and your father-in-law did not use the II. It also may set up pressure for your son to continue the tradition with his own child—though the winding route the name has taken is likely to lessen the pressure considerably or entirely.

My second choice would be to keep it as a III. He is the third Frank Edward Surname in his family tree, and the suffix draws attention to the honor element of the name. Though Jr. is reserved for a child whose parent has the identical name, II and III and IV and so on can be used to designate the descendants of an identically-named ancestor outside the direct line (either because of skipped generations or because of sideways jumps).

My least favorite choice would be to change it to a II. Your husband’s father didn’t use the II, but he was the second Frank Edward Surname so it was available to him to use if he wanted to, or if his parents had wanted to use it. Making your son a II because the suffix went unused last time seems odd at best, and at worst seems to deliberately kick one of the previous Frank Edward Surnames out of the mix.

I’m unclear as to whether your father-in-law was named for his own great-grandfather’s brother or for your husband’s great-grandfather’s brother. But even if there was a biggish gap between the first two Franks, the gap between the second and third skips only one generation, which is when suffixes such as II and III commonly come into play. If you want your baby to be named after his grandfather (your husband’s dad) and you don’t mind either way about the more distant ancestor, then I suppose I would ask your father-in-law if he considers himself the second Frank Edward Surname or not; if he does, then use III; if he doesn’t, then use II.

But it sounds as if your family agrees that the baby should be a III, and that’s the suffix that seems most right to me if you’re going to use one, so if I were you I would just leave it as it is.

Update (and photo) on Baby Girl Archibald, Sister to Rainey, Rutledge, and Ryatt

Update on Baby Girl Jendron, Sister to Stella; Do They Have to Use Another S Name if Both Parents’ Names Start with S?

Update on Baby Naming Issue: How Many Middle Names May a Child Legally Have?

Update on Baby Name to Consider: Fennec

Well, let’s get back to work.

This is a fun one for me. Last year we did a post discussing the name Cole for a girl, and I mentioned that one thing to consider was the potential difficulty of choosing a sibling name—or maybe not:

If your list is mostly “boy names for girls,” and a point in Cole’s favor is that it’s usually used for boys, then I think you’re all set: correcting people will be fun, and you will be able to find plenty of similar names for future daughters. (But I find myself hoping you have trouble and we can help; that would be a really fun list to make!) Perhaps you could give each daughter a traditionally-boy first name and a traditionally-girl middle name, as you’d be doing with the name Cole Leann. Brothers seem like less of an issue: I don’t think you could choose any name for a boy that would make it clear that Cole was a girl, and it’s common for parents to have a somewhat different naming style for daughters than for sons, so I think you could just go with your own preferences.

Emphasis added, because in my inbox this week was this email:

Hi Swistle,
Sorry it’s taken so long to update!!! Little baby girl Kole Leann arrived in August! Her name fits her perfectly!! Your response and the replies from readers really helped us with our final decision. It prepared us for the responses some people may have and encourage us to go with our gut!

We’re now pregnant with our second!! We would appreciate any help from you and readers for sibling names for Kole! I think we may want to stick to the single syllable theme. It’s still early so we don’t know the gender but we’re so excited!! We would love any suggestions!

Thank you!!!

WE’RE ON.

So for boys, I’ll say what I said before: I think you can go with pretty much whatever you like. Last time you mentioned Lane, Jonah, Brooks, and Mitch. Kole and Lane is most unisex, if you want to go for that. Kole and Jonah, Kole and Brooks, Kole and Mitch—they all seem like they’d work equally well, each giving a different tone/style to the sibling group. If it were up to me, I’d choose Kole and Lane or Kole and Brooks.

Girl names are the fun ones here. My own preference is for the style within a sister group (or brother group) to be similar: there’s no rule against sisters named Kole and Josephine, but if I were in charge of the rule book I might make at least a note about it. I think it would be fun to search for another one-syllable name used mostly for boys, with a feminized spelling and a girls-only middle name. I’m not saying I think such a thing MUST be achieved, just that I would enjoy the hunt.

I like Flynn. In 2015 it was used for 15 new baby girls and 360 new baby boys. I think the “Lynn” element gives it a feminine sound; and the Y, while not an altered/feminized spelling, gives it a feminine look. Kole and Flynn.

Ross has potential, I think. It was used last year for 8 new baby girls and 157 new baby boys. It’s reminiscent of Roz, and of the unisex Joss. Again it lacks a way to feminize the spelling, but that’s the detail I’m least concerned about. Kole and Ross.

Oh, oh, oh, how about JUDE? It’s sometimes used as a short form of Judy, but more often as a given name for boys. I really like this option. Kole and Jude.

Bo/Beau. Those of us who took French may balk at the Beau idea (in French the word is masculine and means handsome), but I like how it’s visually the first syllable of beautiful. I also like the sound of the name: a bow as in a ribbon gives it a feminine feel. Kole and Beau/Bo.

Something like Dane or Dean? So close to Jane or Jean. Kole and Dane, Kole and Dean.

Lane would be nice for a girl as well as for a boy. Kole and Lane.

Jace. Kole and Jace. I like the style match here.

Jules. Kole and Jules. I don’t like this style combination as much.

Blake. Kole and Blake.

It’s not one syllable, but I think Percy would be darling on a girl. Kole and Percy.

Because Kole’s middle name Leann is a family name, my vote would be to find another family name for a sister, something definitely girl.

Update on Baby Boy Lamberton, Brother to Annie

Update on Baby Name to Discuss: Cole for a Girl