Update on A Sudden Change of Naming Plans: Baby Girl G., Sister to Francesca (Frankie) and Phillipa (Pip)

Update on Baby Girl Fifer: Louisa Jean or Margot Virginia

Update (and photo) on Baby Girl S1aughter, Sister to Edward (Teddy), Eloise (Ellie), and Philippa (Pippa)

Hi Swistle,

I was recently double names and thought this might be the sort of thing your readers would care about.

Here is the question: When do two names become one name? Are names like “Mary Kate”, “Mary Elizabeth”, “Mary Jane” one name or two names? If your middle name is something like “Mary Kate”, do you tell people you have two names or one middle name? Do hyphens matter? What do you do about initials if you do have two names that are actually one name?

My middle name is the middle example and I always just say I have one middle name and write both into any forms that request a middle name (no hyphens). I’m in Canada so both middle names show up on official documents, and sometimes my initials are put as ME instead of just M. I think this really depends on how your local government chooses to input information and the fact I like the names as a set contributes to how I characterize them.

I can also see the flip side of this dispute where without the hyphen, two names are just… two names. Obviously preference has a lot to do with it.

I think where the dividing line is for me is a combination of:

1) Is this double name already an accepted single name (i.e. Mary Something)?
2) Do the names bounce together well? (i.e. Taylor Grace, Samantha Jo, Rebecca Anne all sound like “one name”)
3) Is the name clearly meant to be two names? (i.e. is the second middle name a mother’s birth name relegated to the second middle name spot? do the names totally clash?)

Which brings me around to the idea of how do two single names turn into a known “one name” situation?

These these types of things keep me up at night at I’m hoping other people are also in this boat.

K.

I almost skipped this one because at first it seemed too easy: it’s two names (two initials) if they are not connected (Mary Kate) and one name (one initial) if they are (Mary-Kate, MaryKate). A space is how we show that two names are separate; a hyphen or a visibly-deleted space is how we show our intent that the the two names be treated as one name. But then almost right away I thought of an example that didn’t fit, which led me to a lot of other examples I wasn’t sure about, and before I knew it I was tempted to skip it because it was too hard! Well, this is what makes for interesting discussions!

Here was the first example I thought of: I know someone named Mary Ann, and her name is Mary Ann to the extent that it would be jarringly wrong to call her Mary; but/and if she’s writing her name as an initial and a surname she writes M. Surname: her name is Mary Ann, one name. But also two. How does that work with my first paragraph? Furthermore, when she signs an email informally, without her surname, she sometimes writes “M.A.” to represent a quick writing of her first name. Even more confusing!

And what about surnames? My understanding is that many people with a hyphenated surname use the first initial of the whole thing: Koning-Dekker is represented by the initial K. But one of the teachers in our school has a hyphenated surname, and she has the kids call her Mrs. K-D. That doesn’t mean she’d necessarily put it that way on a form (as K.D.? K.-D.?), but it makes me wonder, and makes me think the answer to this question is more complicated than I thought.

I think part of the answer is that the name’s position makes a difference: a two-part first name is different than a two-part middle name is different than a two-part surname. My kids each have two middle names, and those are definitely two names, and those are definitely two initials; if a form only lets us use one initial, we use the first initial, but that doesn’t mean the two names are or function as one: it is the form that is wrong. (I have two middle names and default to my second initial.) But that doesn’t mean it’s the same with first names or surnames, and in fact we already have several examples where it’s not or it might not be.

You know what I think it probably boils down to in the end is (1) the original intent of the name(s) (i.e., how the namer thought of the name(s) when giving them) and (2) how the named person feels about the name(s). My acquaintance Mary Ann feels like she has ONE name that happens to have a space as one of the letters. She has ONE first initial (except when signing just M.A., interestingly—I wonder if she does that to help avoid being called Mary?). But another Mary Ann might feel she has TWO names, and might write her first-name initials as M.A. always. Same with surnames: some people with two surnames, hyphenated or not, might write them as two initials, some as one.

I think you’re right that it matters if, say, one middle name is the other parent’s surname: it makes it clear that the name stands alone in a sense, and wasn’t necessarily meant to combine with the other middle name, or to be used to summon the child in for dinner. This also seems like it could factor into double surnames: even when hyphenated, the parents might not want it considered “one name” per se, if it was done that way because it was important to include both names. Or they might! Perhaps the whole family took that hyphenated surname on purpose to make One New Family Name! It’s complicated, is what I’m saying.

And I think you’re right to point out that, for example, Mary _____ names have their own established usage. If I change my example from my acquaintance Mary Ann, to, say Emma Jo, suddenly it seems even more difficult to figure out.

I wonder, too, if it matters when a name already exists in one- and two-name options. Mary Ann and also Marianne and also Maryann, for example. Does that make us feel more as if “Mary Ann” can be one name? For me, I think it does—while simultaneously making me more open to the idea of it as two! It’s more like that usage makes me understand it can be either way.

And the particular naming culture of a local area is going to make a difference. If a ton of kids are going around named John Michael as a first name, it would likely lead to a feeling of that being “a first name”—i.e., one name. Or what about an area where most kids are called by their first + middle? If every parent is yelling out the door “SOPHIA JO, CHARLOTTE ROSE, COME IN FOR DINNER,” will that lead to the feeling that hearing two names is still hearing two names, rather than hearing one double first name?

It seems to me that the easiest and most straightforward examples are the hyphenated or deleted-space names in the first or middle position (rather than in the surname position, where there are societal/symbolic complications): Emma-Jo Catherine Dekker, or EmmaJo Catherine Dekker, or Catherine Emma-Jo Dekker, or Catherine EmmaJo Dekker. In all of those examples, it seems as if intent pairs well with feeling. I would guess that MOST people named Emma-Jo would think of that as one name with one initial, and that MOST people with the middle name Emma-Jo would think the same. Things cross back into complicated if, for example, Emma-Jo ends up going by E.J. as a nickname. Well! This is why I think it boils down to namer’s intent + namee’s feeling, and there isn’t a way to draw a firm solid line, which is also pleasing because it means there isn’t a specific rule that everyone needs to follow.

Okay, I am looking over the tangled mess of this answer and I don’t have the oomph to tidy it up. Let’s see what others think about when it’s ONE name and when it is TWO.

Update on Baby Girl Rock-with-an-L: Veronica or Rose?

Hi Swistle!

We’re getting down to the wire with my second child, who is due in a month. If it’s a girl, she will be June. If it’s a boy, we had settled on Calvin (and he would go by Cal). I can’t remember who threw this wrench in the wheel, but either my husband or I remembered the name Cy.

We both love it. The only thing I can’t figure out is: is Cy an actual name? I looked up Cy Young and Cy Twombly, neither of whom were actually named Cy or anything like it.

We don’t want to use Cyrus. We like Cy, as is. Is it a name? Will having a 2-letter name cause problems on forms? We would really appreciate your/your readers help!

Thank you so much,
Marie

Let’s see what the Social Security Administration says. Their 2019 baby name data has been postponed (ostensibly because of the pandemic but now it’s getting weird), but we have 2018 and earlier. In 2018, the name Cy was given to 65 new baby boys. I went back five years just to check in: 99 new baby boys named Cy in 2013. Well, let’s go back FIFTY years: 18 new baby boys named Cy in 1968. One hundred years: 11 new baby boys named Cy in 1918.

So it hasn’t been in hearty usage, but it’s been around long enough that I think we can safely say that yes, it is used as a name in the United States. And it doesn’t seem as if a two-letter name would be a problem on forms, though perhaps people with two-letter-name experience  (Ty, Jo, Bo) could weigh in on this.

Because it sounds like the word “sigh,” I would double-check any final name choice for unintentional wordplay. I would also double-check for sound combinations with the surname: Cy + K___ (or hard C) sounding like sike/psych, Cy + Ber____/Bur____ bringing cyber to mind, and so on.

One more possibility to consider: you mention you don’t like Cyrus, but do you like Simon or Silas, with the nickname Si/Sy?

Occasionally I have a dream in which I suddenly have a new baby and realize I haven’t even THOUGHT about names yet. This is similar to the dream in which you suddenly need to take a final exam and realize you haven’t attended class all semester: it’s an “Oh no, I didn’t prepare!” dream. Except that when I wake up from an exam/class dream, I don’t feel the urge to start studying the subject of that dream class, whereas when I wake up from a baby/name dream, I DO.

And so this morning I am wondering: If you suddenly had a new baby, what would you name it? If it’s too stressful to imagine needing to choosing THE ACTUAL NAME, RIGHT NOW, then feel free to play the game in whatever way would be fun rather than stressful (I don’t think any of us need any more stress right now). You can, for example, list a few finalist boy names and a few finalist girl names that come to mind, without choosing the actual winning names. Or you could say where you’d START: like, would you start by browsing a particular section of The Baby Name Wizard? Or you could say some of the general things you’d be looking for, like that you’d want to use a family/honor name this time, or WOULDN’T want a family/honor name this time. If it doesn’t feel fun to work on the first names but does feel fun to think about the middle names, that is a perfectly fine way to answer the question. And you can choose to answer either what you would choose if it were entirely up to you, or what you think you’d choose with another parent.

When I tried to answer the question myself, I realized I must have switched out of the mode of casually working on my mental lists of favorite baby names, which I used to do pretty often while folding laundry or doing some other chore that didn’t need much mental attention. I still have pretty much the same names as I did 10 years ago when I thought we might have one more child after Henry. My boy-name list, especially, has remained where it was, probably because I have never found boy names as fun to think about (or as stressful to choose) as girl names. My girl-name list has shifted a little, but it’s basically the same list as before but with the names shifted around: some old favorites shifted down, some other old favorites shifted up. I would still want to use a family/honor name as a middle name, if possible.

How about you? What sorts of things would you be thinking about if you suddenly and unexpectedly needed to name a new baby?

Update (and photo) on Baby Girl or Boy R0ss S@m@@n

Update on Baby Girl-Boy Twins Sounds-Like-Schooled: Josephine and ?

Hello Swistle,

I’m about 14 weeks away from my first baby’s due date. At this point, my husband and I have a general plan for first and middle names (we do not know what the sex of the baby is). My question is about last names.

My husband and I both decided not to change our last names when we got married. Interestingly, we both have rather uncommon last names. I’m an only child and do not have any first or second cousins that share my last name (though distant cousins do exist). My husband has a sister but like me, they do not have any cousins or 2nd cousins with their last name.

I’m really excited to give one baby his last name and another baby my last name. While I don’t think my husband would have come up with this idea on his own, he is warming up to the idea.

I’m curious to hear how other families have done this. If life goes as we’ve planned up to this moment, we’ll have two children (one at a time) and the first will share a name with their dad and a second will share a name with their mom. What happens if there are twins with a second pregnancy? Or if parents decide to have an uneven number of children? Or if a second pregnancy isn’t possible? We could expand it even further to families who welcome older children.

Thanks for your insight,

Molly

Oh, this is so fun to think about. I think I can tell you how I would have done it if Paul and I had gone this route:

• The first baby would have had my surname, because if we ended up having only one baby, I would NOT have been pleased to have it look as if our plan was to give kids their dad’s surname. And also because I would want to counteract any feeling that the dad’s surname was more important and should be used first. And also because I would want to make sure the plan went ahead as planned—as opposed to getting pregnant with the second child and having my husband argue that at this point it would be easier/simpler/better to just keep giving children his surname. I wouldn’t want to have been counting on getting my turn, and have my husband change his mind.

• While not specifically locking down what we’d do if we had twins (unless fertility treatments made multiples highly likely, I’d consider that a bridge to be crossed when we came to it), I’d want to at least touch on the topic ahead of time to make sure we were thinking similarly. I find that while my first impulse is to name them just as if they’d been born singletons, so that one would have my surname and one would have Paul’s, my heart wants twins to have the same surname. I don’t know what I’d do about that.

• The possibility of an uneven number of children is another reason I would want to use my own surname first; I would keep that reason close to my chest, but would think of it as putting the teeniest tiniest weight on the mothers’ side of the balance scale, for all the vast number of children who have been given their fathers’ surnames. I think if the couple KNEW ahead of time that they would have, say, three children, they might want to compensate for it in some way with honor names: that is, if the mother’s surname would be used more often, use more honor firsts/middles from the dad’s side. Since even careful/certain plans are uncertain when it comes to having children, I think my plan would be to try to balance things as we went along: when we used my surname, we’d err on the side Paul’s preferences and Paul’s side of the family for first/middles, and vice versa. That way, even if we had three children or, say, five, things should end up roughly balanced.

• If we were to later have welcomed older children into our family, I think what I would want to do is (1) add them into the pattern as they would have been named, but (2) if we welcomed a sibling group, perhaps give them the same surname as each other. So for example, let’s say we had our first baby and used my surname; then we had a second baby and used Paul’s surname; and then when those babies were 3 and 1 we brought a 5-year-old into the family: I would think we would use Paul’s surname for that child, since then their name fits into the family pattern. (I would likely want to use my surname as the 5-year-old’s middle name.) But if when the babies were 3 and 1 we brought 5-year-old and 7-year-old siblings into the family, I would be stymied as I am with twins. Maybe it makes the most sense to give the 7-year-old my surname and the 5-year-old Paul’s surname, but I feel the same reluctance as I do when considering different surnames for twins. Well, again, unless there was a strong likelihood of this possibility occurring, I think I would check in to make sure we shared basically the same feelings on it, and then put it into the Cross This Bridge If We Come To It category.

I am having a lot of fun thinking about this now. Rob would have had my surname, and so then we would have used the name William for him: Rob was an honor name from my side, used to balance the use of Paul’s surname. Well, except we were much less motivated to use the honor name William, and used it almost entirely to balance the use of the name Rob, which I VERY MUCH wanted to use. And Paul had almost no desire to honor any of his family members (except William), and I had a LOT of good people I wanted to honor, and Paul didn’t feel strongly about balance. So ACTUALLY I think Rob would have had my surname and then we still would have used Rob. And then William would have had Paul’s surname and we still would have used William. Oh but then twins!! Okay, if we had KNOWN we would later have Henry, which we did NOT know, then I would have felt perfectly happy using my surname for both twins, knowing we would use Paul’s surname later for Henry. But NOT knowing about Henry, I would have been pretty stressed: it’s one thing to have an odd number of children, it’s another thing to have three kids with my surname and only one with Paul’s!

Well! What does everyone else think THEY would have done, if they had decided to alternate surnames? And of course, those of you who DID alternate surnames (or know people who alternated surnames), we are hanging on your every word.

[Edited to add: A note to commenters: The question is how it would be done / how we would do it / how we have done it or heard of it done. The question is not whether we personally like the idea / whether we personally would do it / whether we personally think patriarchy is good, actually.]