Hi Swistle!

We are expecting our 3rd and final baby this fall, and I’m a little stumped on names. Originally, I was going to wait until we found out the sex to write you, but now we are thinking we will wait to find out until he/she is born. And in that case, I’ve got to get some things narrowed down. It took me almost 4 days to decide on my firstborn’s name and I don’t want to go through that again.
Our two sons are William David B@rringt0n IV and Edward Mac____ (my Scottish maiden name) B@rringt0n. They go by their first names, no nicknames. I’m not opposed to nicknames, but my husband is. In fact, that was why I couldn’t decide if I wanted to do the 4th for my eldest, because my husband wanted him to be strictly William, which is his name as well. It’s actually a non issue now, I just use ‘big’ and ‘little’ when referencing them to others. I should also note that my husband didn’t want to name his son after himself, but was touched that I really wanted to. So, he’s not a total name tyrant! Ha! Edward is a family name on my mother’s side.

Family names are a top priority, if I/we like them. I’m not opposed to leaving the family tree for a first name that thrills. William is obviously after his dad’s side, Edward is after both my parents’ sides, but I’m not adding any additional pressure to pick a side now. As long as we like it….It’s hard enough without more rules.
Stylistically, I would say we lean towards classic/old names, and I personally like them better if they aren’t top 10 or 20. Or maybe 50-100? William IS popular, but a) it’s always been pretty popular and is a favorite of mine and b) it’s after his dad/grandfather, etc.
Edward’s name tickles me the most of the two. It’s a family name, it’s old, classic, but not trendy. And is usually a middle name instead of a first…at least where I live. I love encountering a child with a name like his and being pleasantly surprised. Familiar but fresh. I was nervous about how it would be received at first, but now I feel much more confident and am glad we stuck with our first choice for him.

Which leads me to my pickle for a boy’s name:
Do I continue in the vein of Edward? Or swing back towards William with more common greats like Henry, James or Charles? My husband loves all 3. I do too but I REALLY get a kick out of Alfred. So here are our current boy contenders:
James Warren (after both our fathers)
Charles Warren (old family name plus my father’s name)
Henry Bates (Bates is my MIL family name)
Alfred Bates ( Alfred I just love, Bates see^)

**Albert is my great grandfather’s name, which my husband and sisters prefer if I go that route. I’m on the fence.

Other family names I like that my husband is so-so about:
Walton nn Walt
George
John
Thomas

Some notes on these: we would probably opt to not have nicknames again, since the big brothers don’t. I like sibling sets to flow nicely. That being said, I much prefer Charlie to Charles. My husband says he wants to exclusively call him Charles. He loves it SO much.

Girl names:
My main issue with girl names is that THE name of the daughter of my dreams is no longer available. Hattie Elizabeth was my beloved great grandmother, and Elisabeth is also the name of my grandmother, my aunt, as well as my sister’s middle name. My husband also really likes it. I love it with our last name….it made and still makes my heart skip a beat! Alas, my sister in law named her 3rd daughter Harriet with the nickname Hattie last year. My husband says we should still use it, but I’m not sure that wouldn’t ruffle feathers, and I just don’t think it should be on the table now. All the cousins on his side are really close in age, and these two would be the very closest in age, so at the very least it would be confusing when we are all together. And now, I just don’t have a ton of names that make my heart sing like that. My husband is struggling to find any others that he really likes, and he also doesn’t like to think much about names until the end. I LOVE to muse about names and also don’t want to wait and narrow down a list while I’m in the hospital again.

Our Current contenders are:
Jane Elisabeth ( both names after my dear Grandmother)
Jane Kathryn or Catherine (Kathryn is my middle name but I’ve never loved the “y” and think the other spelling might look better with the full name?)
Jane Clemmons (Clemmons is a family name I think sounds nice with Jane)
Anna Belinda, call her Annabel (my hubby approves of this “real” name nickname. Belinda is my mother’s name…still a bit too old fashioned for me but I adore my mom and this on her final grandchild would be a such a gift)
Jane Jacquelyn (middle name after my other sister and aunt- but i can’t tell if I love it or hate it together?!?)

Girl Names I like that were vetoed or can’t be used:
Hattie
Eleanor
Eloise
Clementine
Frances
Margaret
Sally (as nn for Sara, which is my name)
Hazel (becoming too popular?)
Iris
….just to name a few!

Girl Names my husband Actually likes more than “that’s not bad”:

Hattie
Sara (after me, and I refuse! I like my name but not enough for a namesake)

I’d love to hear your thoughts on these so I can weed some of them out. And my other main silly concern is: is Jane too plain? I love that it’s not too long, is traditional and classic, but not too popular. But I’m not sure it makes my heart sing. Same with Annabel. I’m struggling to get over the special-ness of Hattie (to me) and really need to open my heart to some other good options. Hoping some praise of any of these names’ virtues might sway me!
Thanks so much!

ALBERT OR ALFRED. I love them I love them I love them. I couldn’t even read the rest of the letter before zooming down to write my vote for ALBERT OR ALFRED. Alfred leads by a nose for my own personal preferences, but I like the way Albert honors a grandfather and gives a new name-ending in the sibling group, so I might lean toward Albert. Hm, as soon as I wrote that, I started leaning more toward Alfred again, and I have a very slight preference for avoiding the repeating B-sound in Albert B@rringt0n (which is purely subjective, and others would lean TOWARD the repeating B-sound). I don’t know, they’re both wonderful!

And actually I love ALL the contenders. James Warren oh my. Henry Bates my goodness. And I love John and George. The only one that gives me pause is Charles, and the only reason for the pause is that you love the nickname Charlie and your husband is inflexible on this.

As an aside, I think your husband should brace for the idea that the kids may themselves choose to go by nicknames later on. This is no longer the age of automatic nicknames (as it was when I was a little kid and one of my friends had to CONTINUALLY STRUGGLE to be called Elizabeth instead of Liz or Beth, and she was considered Quite Odd for doing so)—but many people still do choose to use their own available nicknames. Perhaps your husband has already fully settled with that idea and is only opposed to LEADING with nicknames. But I wanted to mention it because I would advise against using any name where he really hates the nickname: that is, not just dislikes the idea of having any nickname at all on principle, but actively dislikes the actual sound of the particular nickname.

And I think there’s room for a good concession here, if you love names like Albert and Alfred but your husband’s love of the name Charles ends up winning the day: it seems reasonable that you would get to call him Charlie if you want to, while your husband calls him Charles. Or perhaps the concession could be that you choose a name from your preferred list, but with your husband’s preference not to use a nickname for it.

On to girl names. I want to know more about the name Hattie. You say your sister-in-law has used the name as a nickname for Harriet, and since the context includes the cousins on your husband’s side, I am guessing she is your husband’s sister. If I am correct, and since your husband is the one who thinks it’s no big deal to re-use the name, he can be the one in charge of asking his sister about it. But ONLY IF you would want to use the name if it’s fine with his sister, and it sounds like you don’t want to. I am a fan of multiple people in a family sharing a name, but I have found with time that I am much more keen on it if I am the first one to use the name and the name-sharers come afterward!

And you have so many other great names on your list. Jane Clemmons! Anna Belinda! Jane Elisabeth! Jane Kathryn/Catherine! I had only a few moments of heart pain over the loss of Hattie Elizabeth before I was fully comforted by the richness of the remaining candidates. (I don’t find Jane to be plain at ALL.)

And from the veto list: naming her Sara after yourself and calling her Sally!! SWOON. I am charmed too by the way your husband was not keen to have a namesake but you really wanted him to have one, and now you are not keen to have a namesake but he wants you to have one. I wonder if you would like the idea any better if the first name as well as the middle were spelled differently? Sarah Catherine, called Sally? What a delightful name, and so delightful and refreshing to have even a partial maternal namesake.

I can’t decide what I’d want to do about the Jane Catherine/Kathryn issue. On one hand, I strongly prefer honor name spellings to stay the same, and so if it were me, I would likely choose Jane Kathryn. On the other hand, this is your own middle name so it makes sense for you to choose what feels like the honor to you, and I like the story of you telling her that you wanted to share a middle name but you gave her the spelling you’d always preferred. Maybe Jane Katherine would be nice, and a little closer to your own spelling, and then you’d share a middle initial? But if your top favorite spelling is Catherine, I think that’s lovely. And kind of fun to imagine her then maybe doing the same for HER daughter, picking her OWN favorite spelling of Catherine/Katherine/Kathryn! I love when a naming tradition feels optional/flexible.

Perhaps this spoils the honor name—but Hattie can also be a nickname for Henrietta. And it seems like less of a big deal to me if two people share a nickname but for different given names, especially since you could call her Henrietta at family events to avoid the confusion issue. And I love the name Henrietta, and you have Henry on your boy-name list. Henrietta B@rringt0n, nicknamed Hattie. I know your husband doesn’t generally like nicknames, but this would solve a lot of issues. And it doesn’t sit quite right with me to think of using the lighter-weight nickname-name Hattie as a given name for a girl, after using William and Edward with a no-nickname policy for the boys—as if boys can’t even use the diminutive forms of their strong traditional given names, but the diminutive alone is enough for a girl. It does help that Hattie is a beloved honor name, but it still doesn’t sit quite right.

Re-reading your letter, I see you were hoping I would help narrow things down. And all I have done is rave about the options and add a couple more. Well. Well. Not very helpful.

I think when you have a list of great options like this, the method I would use for narrowing it down is the Heart Sing method you’re already using. And what makes MY heart sing is not going to be relevant here. But perhaps hearing reactions to the names will help you find your own preferences: that is, if you see commenters leaning toward one name and you find you WANTED people to vote for that option, so that must be one of your own top choices; or, alternatively, you might see commenters leaning toward one name and it makes you realize you were hoping they would vote for a different name, showing you that that other name was the name you preferred.

So I will tell you the ones that make my heart sing (unfortunately for narrowing purposes it is most of them), and commenters can do the same, and we will see if it helps.

For boys: Alfred Bates, Albert Warren (I took the liberty of choosing the middle for Albert), James Warren. Plus John and George from the veto list. John B@rringt0n! George B@rringt0n! I’m not sure what I’d choose for middles, but I lean toward your father’s name Warren, to balance out the honors a bit and because I love that name: John Warren B@rringt0n, George Warren B@rringt0n. Or Clemmons? John Clemmons B@rringt0n, George Clemmons B@rringt0n.

(Wait. You wouldn’t want to use Warren as the first name, would you? Warren B@rringt0n? Warren Charles B@rringt0n?)

For girls: Anna Belinda (I think I would call her Anna or Anna Belinda rather than Annabel), Jane Clemmons, Jane Kathryn/Catherine/Katherine. And of course the namesake/Sally option from the veto list.

Name Update:

Hi Swistle!

Thank you so much for posting my name conundrum for our 3rd child, sibling to William and Edward. I loved reading your response and all of the wonderful comments.
Our daughter Jane Elisabeth B@rringt0n was born 11.12.20 and we are all smitten.

Even with all the helpful comments, we still went to the hospital without a top contender, and when she was born, all I wanted to name her was Hattie. We had asked my sister in law if we could share the nickname for her daughter Harriet, and she politely asked if we would look elsewhere. Which we tried hard to do, but when she was born I was certain all over again that Hattie Elisabeth was her name. Then at 24 hours old, our sweet girl became ill with pneumonia and respiratory distress. I’m so happy to report she is finally home and doing just fine, but when she was rushed to the NICU, I knew she needed a name and one that was completely pure of any conflict, so miraculously we suddenly wholeheartedly agreed on Jane Elisabeth. That is my grandmother’s full name. (Hattie Elisabeth, the first choice, was after my great grandmother, another special strong woman, and middle was after my Gram) I had a twinge of remorse over Jane Clemmons because I do love it so much, but I am thrilled with the honor name for this special, strong girl. We currently call her Jane, Sweet Baby Jane, Janie, and Janie Jinglebell (my 4 year old started calling her Sally Jane Jinglebell months ago!)
Thank you again for all your help!

Sara

Dear Swistle:

I am writing for help with the naming of our second and last baby, a girl who’s due at the end of August. Obviously having a baby right now is full of scary uncertainties, so I have been focusing as much of my attention as possible on the fun things like decorating her room and choosing a name. Unfortunately, the name thing has become less fun!

Here is our situation. The surname is Hyatt but spelled an alternate way. My husband is Justin and I’m Jennifer (so we are intentionally avoiding J names). We already have a 3-year-old whose name is Perry Jennifer. Perry name is an honor name, it was my husband’s late mother’s maiden name. So for this baby, we want to do something similar, and use a family name from each side, in reverse (a first name from my side, a middle name from his side). For the middle name, we are probably going to use Naomi, which is the name of my husband’s grandmother (and the only living great-grandparent to our kids).

Here is our problem. For her first name, I want to use my maiden name, which is Lilly. Spelled just like that. I think Perry and Lilly makes for a pretty badass pair. I like the symmetry between the two names. And I think that spelling it “Lilly” ties it legitimately to my side of the family, which is traceable for several generations both in the United States and in the UK.

My husband thinks this spelling is confusing. He likes the idea of honoring my side of the family, but wants to spell it Lily to make it more recognizable. To me, this dilutes all the appeal of the name. There are a million Lilys. My name was often misspelled growing up (my family still experiences this) and I think I would feel resentful of having a daughter called by the most common misspelling.

We are at gridlock over this. I think we could commit to this being the name, if we could commit to the spelling. I really, really want to talk my husband into my preferred spelling. I think I would be very unhappy with the “compromise” of using the other spelling, which for me would make it a different name entirely. What do you think? Am I just being a crazy preggo, and unable to see that Lily works fine as an alternative to Lilly? Or does my husband need to give me my way on this since honoring a surname includes honoring its spelling?

Thank you!!

Sincerely,
Jenn

Perhaps this exercise would be helpful. Your first child’s name is Perry, which was your husband’s mother’s maiden name. Imagine if you had preferred the spelling Perri, and thought it seemed more feminine and less confusing. Does your husband think changing the spelling of that honor name to meet your preference would have been a good compromise? or does he think that would have been a pretty radical change, requiring a more significant justification than mere preference?

Or what about his own surname: I find the alternate spelling you provided to be less confusing and more recognizable than the actual spelling. What does he think of the idea of using that alternate spelling for his kids’ names, just to make things easier? Would he consider himself to have “gotten his own way” on the spelling of the surname, if you had preferred the other spelling, or would he have considered THE WAY IT WAS ACTUALLY SPELLED to be the default, and anything else to be a pretty radical change requiring a more significant justification than mere preference?

Sometimes a respelling of an honor name can be appropriate. There have been times I have recommended it, even STRONGLY recommended it. But in this case? In a country where we have managed to deal with Sara and Sarah, Allen and Alan, Anne and Ann, Aidan and Aiden, Elliot and Eliot and Elliott, Philip and Phillip, Scarlet and Scarlett, Miles and Myles, Zoe and Zoey, Allison and Alison, Brian and Bryan, Michele and Michelle, Louis and Lewis, Katherine and Catherine, Sean and Shawn, Steven and Stephen, Margo and Margot, Mark and Marc? We can easily deal with Lily/Lilly.

And in fact we have LONG BEEN dealing with Lily/Lilly. The online Social Security information starts in 1900, and both Lily and Lilly were in use then: the spelling Lily was the #292nd most popular name in the United States, and the spelling Lilly was a little more common at #264. The downloadable Social Security information goes back to 1880, and again we see both spellings: the spelling Lily given to 41 new baby girls, and the spelling Lilly to 64 new baby girls. This is not some new thing you made up, or some weird new unfamiliar spelling you’re suggesting: it is an established way to spell the name in this country, and for awhile was the more common spelling.

If this were not a family name, and the two of you could not decide between Lily or Lilly, I would not be able to come down on one side or the other: I would say it was a matter of personal preference, and that you might have to find another way to come to a decision, such as one parent getting their choice of spelling and the other getting more say in the middle name. But in this case, the name you want to use is not Lily/Lilly, where each parent has an equal vote about what The Better Spelling is, but rather YOUR FAMILY SURNAME, which IS SPELLED LILLY.

In short, although I do sometimes think it’s reasonable to change the spelling of an honor name, in this case I don’t see any good reason for it. The spelling Lilly is established and familiar. Honor names from your husband’s side of the family have not had their spellings altered, and his family surname will be used unchanged and for both children. You and your family are the ones being honored with the name Lilly, and you feel very strongly about the spelling, as presumably he and his family feel about the spelling of their own surname. The compromises in this situation are already fully established (honor first name from each side, honor middle from each side) without you adding another concession. He is not suggesting a “compromise,” he is suggesting a radical change that would require a more significant justification than mere preference.

Name update:

Guess what? He came around! Baby girl will officially be named Lilly. I wish I could say that I convinced him with your excellent points about how we used his surname without modification, but ultimately my husband was swayed by the sheer number of people telling us Lilly IS an established name. We changed the middle name, though–another relative just used Naomi, so our Lilly will be Lilly Miranda in honor of my husbands’ mom (Miranda was her first name). Yes, this means both girls are “splitting” two honor names–mine and their late grandmother’s. We love this!

Thanks so much for the support!

Hi! I’m pregnant and due with our first – a girl- in July. My husband and I both kept our given last names and we plan to use my last name as a middle name, for our daughter and any other future children.

We also have a first name- Daphne- that has risen to the top of the list. It’s a name we both really like and like the low level of popularity. So.. I think what we’ve settled on so far is … (last names listed are not the same, but very similar to ours)
Daphne ?? Basker Johnston

here’s our conundrum! I would love to have a first middle name that is my moms name (Joan), I have always loved her name and it reminds me of strong women – (my mom, Joan of arc, Joan from madmen…) and I think it goes well with Daphne. Early on we vetoed any first names that start with J, since my name starts with a G and my husbands starts with a J and the last name is (similar to) Johnston, it was too much, but perfectly fine as a middle :). My husband thinks it would be weird to have our kids middle two names be my moms actual name (Joan Basker), but I think of it as my mom’s name, then my last name. So it doesn’t seem strange to me. Thoughts?

-Ginni

I can answer this one from personal experience, because we had a similar situation with my firstborn’s name. I wanted to use my grandfather’s first name as a middle name and my maiden name as a second middle name—but those two names are from the same branch of the family, so my son’s name ended up with my grandfather’s first/last as his two middle names. Several notes:

1. My grandfather seemed even more pleased with the honor name, because of this.

2. Everyone else didn’t notice and/or didn’t care. Most of the people I know don’t know my grandfather’s name, so it wouldn’t catch their attention; since it’s one generation nearer, more of your acquaintances may know your mom’s name.

3. Over the years, it has not seemed weird, though sometimes it strikes me as being a little interesting/cool/fun. Sometimes when I was filling out a form and putting both of Rob’s middle names on the same line, I would notice it, but just be freshly pleased by that fun coincidence. And thinking about it today as I write, I think the two names mostly just look like Rob’s Two Middle Names to me now.

I asked Rob if it seemed weird to him, and he said he’d never realized the two names together formed my grandpa’s name. But that’s a generation farther out than in your case, so we considered what it would be like if he had HIS grandpa’s first/last as his middles, instead, and he said he didn’t think that would have been weird, either.

And most people’s middle names only come into view on the birth announcements, at graduations, and on forms, so it isn’t as if they’ll be widely known—and even when they ARE known, it won’t generally be by people who know your mom’s name. And if they DO know your mom’s name, it’s hard to imagine them caring much about the situation.

Plus, and I think most importantly of all: in your situation, unlike in mine, the child’s second middle name will be your current, active surname! So it should click into everyone’s mind immediately as being YOUR surname rather than your mom’s.

In short, it’s not weird, it’s fine! And I love the effect of your mom’s name on the rhythm of the whole name: Daphne Joan Basker Johnston is even better than Daphne Basker Johnston. And I love that you could call her Daphne Joan or Daphne Jo!

Name update:

Thanks for the help! We have an update.

Our daughter Daphne Joan Basker Johnston was born in August. After so many of you pointed out that this happens with boys all the time, I realized it’s actually the case of my husband’s name – haha. His middle is his father’s first name, so his middle/last combo is his dad’s first/last. My mom is so touched that we gave her the middle name Joan and we’ve been calling her Daphne, Daphne Joan and DJ quite regularly. Thanks for everyone’s help!

Hello!

My husband and I tried to have a baby for many years, and to our delight ended up pregnant with twins due in July (a boy and a girl) thanks to fertility treatments. Yay! We’ve had girl names picked out for ages, but are struggling with what to name the boy. Having twins threw a wonderful wrench into our parenting plans.

The babies will take on their father’s last name, which is a single syllable Irish name that sounds like “schooled.” However, their second middle name will be my last name, a British name which has two syllables and sounds like “caper.” We would prefer first names with at least two syllables that don’t have long vowel sounds since my husband’s name is so vowel heavy.

We are partial to gender neutral names with a sense of family history. We’re naming our daughter Josephine. It’s significant to us because: a) There are many Josephs on both sides of the family (it’s my husband’s middle name, my father’s middle name, and the name of my husband’s grandfather), b) There are significant women with names that start with “Jo” in our families (Joyce and Joan – grandmothers), and c) I love that its short form can be gender neutral (Jo, Joey).

We would love our son’s name to have the same kind of significance as his sister’s, but there aren’t a lot of male names related to our families that we like, or that we would saddle our kid with (Chester, Ernest, and Mervin for example), or that are particularly striking in the way that Josephine is (David, Frank, Steve, Chris).

My husband loves the name Basil (his great-grandfather’s name), but I don’t because people will pronounce it differently and it reminds me of a muppet. I know we could do what seems obvious and give the name Joseph to our son, and find another girl name, but we’ve been dreaming about Josephine for years.

Other boy names we’ve considered and like but aren’t set on:
Arthur (Art)
Jasper – I’m not a fan of alliterative twin names, so it’s halfway off the table for me
Finnigan (Finn)

We’ve also thought about bird names, which I know sounds weird, but my husband has been calling the babies his little birds all throughout my pregnancy (so we’ve thought about Finch for example).

Looking over this message makes us seem bananas! Syllable counts? Irish bird names? If you can help us out we will be eternally grateful.

Sincerely,
Catherine

My family tree is similar with the male names: plenty of Mertons and Jameses, but not many equivalents of Josephine.

Well. I do see one striking name I would like to pluck from the list of not-particularly-striking names: Frank. I think Franklin would be striking on a little boy, and fabulous with Josephine.

Franklin always makes me think of Frederick, which I think would be similarly fabulous: Josephine and Frederick.

Or, depending on how similar the surname is to Schooled, maybe Louis? I love that the nickname could be Lou, which is gender-neutral. But if the surname really does start with S, I probably would avoid names ending in S.

Davis would make a good freshened-up honor for a David. Josephine and Davis. But again, probably not if the surname starts with S.

Do you have any Edwards or Edwins or Edgars in the family tree? Edmund would be a nice with Josephine, and then both twins would have the first two letters of their names referencing family names.

Oh! Oh! EVERETT! Josephine and Everett! With Ev as a pet name, if not a nickname-nickname.

Or Elliot! Josephine and Elliot.

And I love Arthur from your list.

I am fond of a little twinniness to twin names: like, clearly not the Karen & Sharon / Timmy & Tommy type of thing that has thankfully gone mostly out of style, but subtler things such as reversed initials (i.e., J.E. and E.J.), or a matching number of letters/syllables, or really just any little thing that would give me that feeling of a happy little link. We ended up not being able to make any of those things work, but we DID give our twins coordinated middle names totally by accident, and that has been pleasing to me. Along those lines, and combined with the bird situation, I wonder if it would be fun to give each twin a bird-related middle name. Josephine Lark and Elliot Finch. Josephine Starling and Everett Finch. Josephine Sparrow and Frederick Jay.

Name update:

Thank you so much for your name suggestions, and for the thoughtful responses from readers of your blog! It gave my husband and I a lot to think about. In the end, Josephine Anne and Arthur Frank (Jo & Art) arrived safely on July 6th. We were stuck on Finnegan for a very long time, but decided against it because it just didn’t work for us any more. I quite liked it, but my husband felt it was too trendy. We kept circling back to Arthur and fell in love with the name all over again. Frank was my grandfather’s name. He passed earlier this year. We considered using Frank as a first name, as many people suggested, but I also have an uncle Frank who would have maybe misinterpreted the significance. Also, I’m a teacher, and I taught a Franklin earlier this year who was a complete pain which soured that version of the name for me (or at least took it off the table as a first name).

The bird names as middle names idea was solid for quite a while, but ultimately we wanted to pay homage to more family members (Anne is after my late aunt, and is also my middle name). Of course, after the haze of the labour and delivery wore off we belatedly realized we’d given our children Anne Frank as middle names. Oops!

Thanks again for your input! We had a lot to think about.

Cheers,
Catherine