Hi Swistle!
I’m recently engaged and have been thinking a lot about baby names and more specifically “honor’ names for the middle name spot. My fiance and I agree that the two people/sides of the family we would be honored to honor would be my mom and/or fiance’s father who is divorced from fiance’s mother.
I’ve been thinking a lot about how I know future MIL will be hurt over this. She’s shown a pattern of being hurt over things that I believe are unhealthy for her to be hurt over in the first place but then on top of FEELING hurt she takes it a step further by needing/wanting her son to make her feel better about it rather talking to a friend, or therapist, or her long time partner (i.e. a peer and not her child).
My question is – is it ever appropriate or ok for grandparents to express that they are hurt or offended that their name was not used as an honor name? If not, can you think of any situation where it would be okay to express it?
Also a disclaimer, I understand FEELING hurt (that can’t be helped sometimes) but to actually express that hurt to the new parents feels out of bounds to me, especially if there is a history of enmeshment.
Oh, I am so interested in this question, and I am enjoying your careful laying-out of the issue: that is, we don’t need to waste time discussing whether someone might have legitimate reason to feel hurt by a baby’s name, or under what circumstances we might choose to spare them that pain; we are ONLY discussing if there are ANY circumstances in which it would be appropriate for someone to EXPRESS hurt TO THE BABY-NAMERS. A lovely careful filleting.
But here is my question, before we answer: Why do you ask?
That is: how will the answer (which I think we all know is “no,” though it will be fun to see what exceptions we can think of) be of use? Our answer won’t prevent your future mother-in-law from doing whatever it is she’s going to do—and my take-away is that she’s likely to Do Something.
Something about this letter is troubling me, and it may be that I am reading FAR too much into it (sometimes by the time I’ve read and re-read a letter half a dozen times and let it simmer for awhile, I have filled in blanks with inaccurate imagination). But I think it’s that I’m picking up a feeling that you suspect your future husband won’t agree that his mother is out of line, and that he will indulge her; and that if/when that happens you may wish to feel bolstered by the stabilizing opinions of others. It feels as if you’re attempting to do preventative emotional labor: trying to protect him from (and/or coach him through, and/or bolster yourself for) an upcoming conflict you expect him to have with his mother (or that you expect to have with him and his mother), after you get married and get pregnant and have the baby and name the baby. I am wondering if this is not actually a baby-naming question, but more of an engagement question.
It’s not this site’s area of expertise (I wouldn’t just be out my lane, I’d be completely off my highway)—but speaking here just as Auntie Swistle for a minute, I’d say the engagement period is ABSOLUTELY the time to be thinking through all these things: is this what you want? can you tolerate being married to someone who has this sort of dynamic with his mother? can you tolerate decades of dealing with his mother, and also dealing with him dealing with his mother? do you want to do so much work on this? are you going to end up feeling as if you are repeatedly thwacking your head against a wall, and/or feeling as if you’d like to thwack someone else’s head against a wall? and so on. It feels to me (based just on one single, shortish letter, which is likely not a fair or representative sample) as if your potential/future mother-in-law is already taking up a fair amount of mental energy—and that is a valuable thing to note and consider before she becomes your actual/current mother-in-law (and, much more irrevocably, grandmother to your children, children who will have names she may find personally hurtful). An engagement is like a no-obligation free trial period, and it feels to me as if your mind is trying out what it thinks it can expect from this product if you decide to keep it.
It’s common on this site for me to mention that a name is “a package deal”: maybe someone wants a name unusual enough that it is not shared by anyone they’ve ever known, and part of the package deal of that name is that it will require regular spelling/pronunciation/explanation; or maybe someone wants a name that is well-liked and easy to spell and pronounce, and part of the package deal of that name is that their child may sometimes have someone in their classroom with the same name; or maybe someone wants a name that honors someone important to them, and part of the package deal of that name is that it will cause family drama. That sort of thing. The concept is that the name is BUNDLED with its accessories, and can’t be separated from it, and that’s okay—unless it’s NOT okay. And it’s the same with spouses: they’re a package deal. This spouse option you’re considering is packaged with this mother-in-law. Buy, or no?
Well, but that’s not what you asked us.
Let’s turn our minds to what you DID ask, though I’m going to broaden the question a little to allow for more exceptions. Because no, it is never appropriate for a grandparent (or anyone else) to express hurt to the baby-namers that the baby was NOT named after them. (And PROBABLY it is never appropriate for someone to express hurt to the baby-namers that the baby was named after their ex-spouse—though I definitely would expect the person to express that hurt to friends, other relatives, a therapist, etc., as mentioned, because it would be such an understandably hard pill for most people to swallow. And it would perhaps be kind to give the person in question a gentle warning ahead of the birth, so that they would have space/time to process that decision beforehand, rather than having it sprung upon them at the hospital with everyone there, perhaps including their ex, to view their unpleasantly-surprised reaction. Unless of course they are the sort of person who would take that gentle lead-time as an opportunity to vigorously lobby to have the decision changed, in which case on their own head be it, and perhaps have an in-the-know nurse or family member on hand to gently escort them from the hospital room for a little time-out if necessary.)
But a broader and more interesting question is if there are ANY circumstances in which it would be appropriate for ANYONE to express hurt/offense/objections about ANY baby name to the baby-namers. And actually, I can think of one, but it’s a pretty strict one, and I’m not sure it evan falls into the category of reaction we’re considering: if the person knows something that the baby-namers didn’t know, and it’s something serious enough that the person thinks the baby-namers might actually want to consider changing the baby’s name. It seems like this would be pretty rare—but on the other hand, families do keep secrets, and families do try to protect children, and sometimes those children grow up and use honor names they wouldn’t have used if they’d been let in on the secret, and sometimes that’s when other members of the family realize something probably should have been said earlier.
I can’t think of any other situations off the top of my head. Can anyone else think of any?
I’m not sure if it is “okay” but certainly understandable if you name your baby after a close family member or friends baby who has died. I would expect the close family member or friend would let you know how hard it might be to constantly hear your child called by the name of the baby they lost.
I love Swistle’s answer to this. I can think of one scenario that answers your question: It might be reasonable for her to get offended if you use the naming process, over which she has no control, to rub her face in her decreasing access to her son. Something about this letter (maybe the fact that this potentially toxic situation hasn’t even begun to happen yet, but is already being imagined in such extreme specificity) makes me wonder if you might be feeling like your new role in this family is to do things that push your MIL to rise above behaviors you “feel are unhealthy,” which is not fair to her, to you, or to your marital happiness.
Like Swistle, I might be reading a lot into this—but I can imagine a scenario in which you have chosen the baby’s name and you feel tempted to roll it out in a way that forces your MIL to react negatively, because her past behaviors have created a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. That would not be fun for anyone! Choose whatever name you like and then deal with it if she reacts badly. Give her the benefit of the doubt up until that point!
HI there! I’m OP.
I will definitely be giving her the benefit of the doubt! I just thought it would be an interesting discussion point and was curious to hear answers. Even though my fears and feelings in the letter are very true and based on very real situations which I didn’t detail because of privacy reasons, you’re right it hasn’t happened yet but I am not living moment to moment expecting/hoping/wanting it to happen so I can purposefully put her in a situation that will test her to “rise above it.”
If this were my situation, I would probably decide to just not use any family honor names… but I can understand not wanting to let one person’s bad attitude and behavior wreck something good like naming a child after your parent. Definitely something worth thinking of ahead of time, whether the solution is “no honor names” or “husband lays down the law with his mom about what is appropriate to say to you and it is his job to do so.”
I do think your hypothetical is a good one, Swistle, as well as the example of parents using the name of a loved one’s deceased child. But in almost all other cases I think this is a “dump out” thing… if a new mom’s baby’s name makes you feel bad, talk to someone else about it. Not to the parents.
I think your logical breakdown of this is great – although as the daughter of a Very High Maintenance Mother it would have devastated me if she was the dealbreaker in my engagement. But then I suppose that comes down to boundaries? I had learned to have very good ones before my husband came upon the scene.
My daughter’s middle name is Josephine. My estranged father’s middle name happens to be Joseph. This is not a thing I even thought about while naming her, I don’t think I even remembered it was his middle – she is named after Jo March from Little Women. My mother decided that the first meeting she had with her first granddaughter was the *perfect* time to bring up the subject and complain about it.
So no, not ok in that situation. But I’m pretty used to weathering that kind of storm. Boundaries!
The only exception I can think of (beside the Information You Must Know example) is very specific, but I suppose it could be a possibility. I am imagining that you are named Margaret but that you HATE the name with so much fire and venom that you never go by it and stick solely to a nickname… and then your child and partner — in full possession of this knowledge — name their baby Margaret. I think in that case, maybe you could express mild shock and a desire to understand the context of the decision, but that you’d have to tread carefully very carefully, with a very open mind and a lot of grace.
Maybe this would also apply to a situation where a new parent claims that a name is an honor name, but it isn’t the actual name. I feel like it would again be okay to gently probe into the reasoning. Maybe. WITH GREAT CARE.
Also, I for one would be delighted if Auntie Swistle were a regular purveyor of advice. Pretty sure we could all use an Auntie Swistle sometimes.
I don’t know… I think if my mom were to probe into the discussion in that manner, I’d still get annoyed with her in the same way I’m annoyed when she just can’t understand why parents these days do things differently with newborns than they did back when she had babies. (I say that as someone with a mom who does hate her name and go only by a nickname, and would express mild shock if I were to name a baby after her by using that name! But I’m aware of that situation and for that reason among others wouldn’t name a daughter that name, haha. So I guess it could happen if I were to suddenly love the name…)
This second point is very interesting. Like for example, my grandfather’s name was Jim and when I was younger I thought the middle name James would be a sweet honor name to him. Only, his name wasn’t James, it was actually legally Jimmie. So if I didn’t know that information, I would have been sad to find out later versus before when I could decide if it mattered to me.
Swistle’s example reminded me of this letter: https://www.swistle.com/babynames/2015/01/31/10910/
Anyway…I do wonder if there are also cases where it might be appropriate or helpful to share a negative association with a name, or just “did you realize this name sounds like X public figure?” We told my dad we were thinking of Lucretia for our first, and he immediately said, “but that’s like Lucretia McEvil!” (which is a song from the 70s). So while I didn’t really appreciate that in the moment, I guess I also could make the case for there being some value in not being blindsided by a cultural association? Our first ended up as a boy, so it was a moot point, but I do wonder if people ever appreciate hearing this type of thing…
Your comment actually reminded me of something like this!. We have friends that named their baby River. Which is great and actually suits them and their child, but when I told my partner, he pointed out that their last name is the name of a very well known river. So even thought it’s flip flopped, when you say the name in full you can’t help but associate. I hadn’t even realized it myself, as the name was an outlier as far as I knew, they had completely different names prior to the child being born. down the road she very subtly alluded to the fact that she hadn’t really thought the name through and they “had to pick something”. (There were some medical issues at the child’s birth) I said nothing then, except commiserated that I too Took a few days to name my child! While I would NEVER say anything myself, perhaps someone in her family should have said something. It’s not the worst association in the world, but sometimes when you are naming a real live baby in the heat of the moment, when you are tired and living on adrenaline and overwhelmed, maybe you aren’t thinking of all the associations or possible issues. So perhaps then (and just about only then) an outspoken family member wouldn’t be so bad?
Desperately trying to figure out what river. Nile is too obvious, no one would be so clueless.
Ooooh, Hudson? I mean, that would still be pretty clueless. Something more obscure…
St. Lawrence? Platte? Green? Cumberland? Some of these are only going to sound silly in the relevant region, if that’s any consolation!
Yes I thought of this exact letter too!!!!!
I’m here to 100% back swistle’s response. This is something that actually happened to someone I know – he named his son after a close family friend he had growing up, and twenty years later found out that friend had molested his sister as a child. He felt absolutely terrible and said he would never have named his son that if he had known. Now I don’t think the sister was wrong or anything in *not* informing him – everyone’s journey is different and she wasn’t ready to talk about it then. And I don’t think he was in the wrong either, since he didn’t know. But I also think, if she had been in a place where she was able and ready to tell him she had a problem with the name she would absolutely be within her right to let him know. I can’t imagine how painful it all was/is for her.
All of this to say, I think these scenarios are likely more common than we would like to think.
Also – I don’t think there is EVER a scenario where it would be appropriate to inform the child of the baggage of their name, unless maybe it comes up in some indirect unrelated fashion. And that child is an adult.
I hadn’t even though of scenarios like this before reading the response and the comments. This would be a 100% valid reason to express feelings about a name. I also totally agree that there is pretty close to never a situation where you should burden the child with THE name of the baggage.
What a terrible and painful situation. I hope his sister has found some form of peace.
The only scenario that comes to mind (aside from Swistle’s excellent example) is if a parent told everyone that they were going to name their baby after a family member and then when the baby arrived, surprise!, they pick a completely different family member’s name without prior explanation.
This happened to a friend recently: her son and his wife said that they were 100% going to use her name as their baby’s middle name but when the baby was born they used his wife’s aunt’s name instead without first letting my friend know to expect the change. She was more surprised and confused than hurt and did (gently) ask about the change of name while making it clear that she wasn’t unhappy and certainly didn’t pretend to have any control over how they named their baby. Apparently her son did a, “oh yeah! I totally forgot to tell you that we changed our minds!” thing. Knucklehead.
Anyway, in that situation I think that it’s fine to ask for clarification about a previously and publicly stated naming intention.
Maybe this couple will have two daughters. Then they could name the first one after her side — first or middle name after her mom. And the second daughter’s first or middle name could have a connection to his mother’s name. Then both moms/grandmothers would be happy. And his mom could be told when the first granddaughter was born, “if we have a second daughter, she will be named after you”.
One of my daughters-in-law told me after her 3 sons were born, that if she had had a daughter she was going to name her my middle name as her first name and her mom’s middle name as the baby’s middle name. I’ve never forgotten that, and it made me happy to hear it even though it didn’t come about.
Years before, my oldest daughter surprised me and gave her first child, my first grandchild, my middle name as her middle name;; that has always been special for both of us.
I’m guessing that most who have responded are not yet grandmothers. You may think differently about this when you move on to that role.
The question here is: “Is it Ever Appropriate To Express Hurt/Offense Over a Baby Name To the Parents of the Baby?”
Probably not. But you may see the hurt in her eyes or hear about it sometime later, directly or indirectly.
Some wisdom I recently heard on TikTok: don’t let the least emotionally mature person run the family dynamic.
That’s all. I am appreciating all the comments and, of course, our Queen Swistle’s response.
My brother dodged a baby-naming bullet through the power of google.
He was dead set on naming a son after our grandfather who had a unique name. Think Memphis Llewellyn Hatfield. Said grandpa passed away long before we were born, so it was more about the unique-ness than the family connection. Upon googling the name, he realized our Uncle Lou (who was ostrasized from the family for reasons) was a) Memphis Llewellyn Hatfield, Jr. and b) in jail for bad bad very bad things.
If Auntie Lucy was around to tell him the same thing, he would’ve been appreciative.
I seem to remember a letter coming up where parents had chosen the name of a mistress or associated with an affair? I feel like that might be a situation that warrants a mention of association even after the baby is here. Though that comes with such a big amount of other baggage to work through.
People are bringing up great (painful) examples. A good reminder that we don’t always know the associations and of course there’s an Awkward Name and then there’s a Potentially Traumatizing Name. I was lucky (?) enough to know an association that vetoed a beautiful name for me, but I imagine if I hadn’t, my mom would’ve flinched a bit at first, until the name just became her granddaughter.
And yes to an Auntie / Queen Swistle column please!
Dear OP,
I feel very connected with your letter. I too have a MIL that has required Husband and I to learn to navigate her emotional expressiveness and behavior patterns over the past 14 years. He previously did not have enough distance to be insightful, and together we realized just how…egocentrically (hard to find the right word!) she experiences the world.
We do this to preserve the relationship between her and Husband, and maintain a connection between her and I. We aren’t trying to mold her or manipulate her into being a different person or suddenly a good mother. It’s more of a slow, tactful navigation of her feelings and actions to protect our mental health and boundaries. She can be so lovely at times, but also astoundingly cruel. It doesn’t matter if it’s a big thing (honor name) or small thing (not answering her phone call). It can feel like a never-ending game of chess running concurrent to our regular life. I hope this doesn’t come off sounding mean. Its just our reality. She doesn’t seek connection or support from peers, therapy or any other family, only Husband and me. I’m writing all this to say, I hear you!!!
I see you are asking if it is ever appropriate for a grandparent to express they are hurt/offended when their name wasn’t chosen in honor, but instead of answering that I want to say, I see you are in preparation mode. You want to guard your heart and prepare your mind. You are connecting the dots and seeing patterns emerge. Regardless of a yes, no or it depends answer, she is going to react how she reacts. Even with gentle informative conversation or not.
It is important that you and Fiancé find support in therapy or peers to build a support network to ease the BIG FEELINGS into a softer landing. She will start, or may already have begun, to process the “loss” of HER SON to marriage which is a flawed perspective. Fiancé is his own person, and you two together are your own family and that is so exciting!!!! MIL is allowed feelings, big and small, and transitions can be hard. She isn’t, though, allowed to manipulate for personal gain or continue to rely on Fiancé for all her emotional needs.
Sorry for the novel. Kind wishes for your marriage and growing your family. 😊
May I share a “coping thought” (and long story to set it up) that let me deal with a loved one’s disappointment at how we used an honour name ?
I named my middle child partly after my late mother; think Catherine Rachael, where Catherine was my late mother’s name and Rachel is just a name we liked as a middle. But for various reasons, we used Rachel day-to-day. Going by one’s middle name is very common on both sides of my family.
But my mother’s sister, to whom I am quite close, was sad that we weren’t calling the baby Catherine and made mention several times of what a shame that was and she was generally trying to guilt us into calling the baby Catherine.
I decided to just brush off my aunt’s comments until she got tired of making them. But. I scripted a “comeback” in my head. I never used it. Never planned to use it. But just knowing that I *could have* a crushing comeback made it easier to be unbothered by the guilt trips. (The comeback was along the lines of how hard it would be to process my raw grief over my mother’s death while looking at my newborn’s face. It wasn’t even completely true. But it woulda told her!)
And life being the way it is, that baby, now 13, goes by Catherine everywhere but at home. And not just Catherine but the same fusty short form that my mother used for her actual name. Think of the shortened name of someone who would hang out with Shirley, Howard, Al, and Betty.
All that to say, sometimes all a situation needs is a coping thought though it sounds likely that you will have several situations with your future MIL that require a range of coping actions and coping thoughts and picking battles. If you relegate honour name objections to be dealt with by coping thought, I’ve found that an unspoken but satisfying comeback did the trick for me.
Reading the headline, my first (and only real) thought was abuse.
A friend of mine was incredibly close to his grandfather. But it was only after the grandfather passed that my friend learned he had been abusive to my friend’s mother, his daughter. He was in his 20s by the time this information was shared.
That type of situation is the type I think would be appropriate.
I also remember a letter that I swear was on your blog? They picked a name- let’s say Hudson for the example- and it turned out that the letter writer’s father had died in the Hudson River. Their mom was staunchly against it, since it would bring back bad memories.
(The place was not as famous as the hudson river, and I can’t find it again!)
I also think that’s a valid time. If the very mention of the name as a potential for a grandchild immediately reminds you of a death, I think you have the right to raise a concern.
I think if people share a name explicitly for comment before the birth, they should be open to both positive and negative comments. If only sharing after it makes sense with the exception of these real issues that people not complain. But I do also feel like not every comment is necessarily complaining. My we named my oldest child, for example, my cousin who was also pregnant when she was born expressed a little chagrin, because she had been secretly planning on using that name and didn’t want to have the second kid of that name. But it was along the lines of a good natured Aw shoot, I guess we have the same taste in names because I was hoping to use that, and not harped on going forward. This felt fine to me. I sort of feel like a little forbearance for a ONE time MILD reaction should be granted if a name really makes a person feel some kind of way. Also I do think if you know you are going to do something that is going to make someone feel bad, try to generous with them while doing it, even if their acting out isn’t the most generous thing they could do in the situation.
‘xactly. It’s the nagging that gets a too much very quickly
Now in our case, we told people our children’s names in the same spirit as if we’d announced them at birth. A couple of my relatives would’ve taken _not_ announcing those names as them being free to give us suggestions (pressure us, rather). Well, Dad was always going to do it either way, but we forestalled the other one.
A facial expression upon hearing you aren’t one of the honored is one thing, discussing it with your child is quite another. So’s wanting comfort from your child. My father did a bit of both, though not truly bad about the name issue. I think my unofficial stepmother told him off after that name phone call, ’cause he mostly left it be after that. The really hard part was when Dad decided I was one of his best friends and would talk to me like one. No spawn needs to know _any_ details about your self-harm ideations from 30-40 years ago, even if your spawn is 35. Sigh.
I agree, the only appropriate time for a grandparent to actually comment hurt over a name is when abuse or maybe a death that’s still very raw is involved. We’ve a few that fall in the former category. Eldest’s name could’ve fallen in the latter category, but it pleased the person who’s grieving the hardest. (My youngest is also named for someone who died, but nobody’s going to gainsay my right to use my mother’s name.)
In Judaism, children are never named after living people, which is a nice way to elide hurt feelings of living relatives. I do agree with Swistle that this is a good time to ask yourself if this is the sort of thing you want to be dealing with for life?
The linked Reddit post (in my name, or by searching “Iris Coraline”) on someone reusing the name of a recently-departed infant in their family without the blessing of said child’s parents is a situation that I hear of every few months. In this circumstance I’d say expressing your discomfort to the namer makes perfect sense and is perfectly appropriate–because reusing the name in this case isn’t honoring, nor is it theirs to use.
A situation where I think it would be appropriate to bring concerns to the parent is if they have chosen something that you honestly and truly believe is offensive in a general sense, not just personally hurtful – for example, my understanding is that g*psy is considered a racial slur in much of Europe, but I have also heard of it being used as a name (sometimes in combination with Rose) by multiple Americans. If someone I knew used it as part of a name, I would feel not just justified, but obligated, to gently point out that this name might offend people and that could cause their child difficulty.
If you named your child Ihate, middle name Jenny, I think I might be within my rights to say something.
I think there is some variation depending on timing…. Named but not legally signed is different than named and signed in my book.
But there are a couple instances to me where this feels justified… Sure names of abusers and the deceased make sense as everyone said. Additionally if it fell into the former category of named but not signed, I would personally love a heads up if it was a name of someone infamous. I had a friend who very nearly inadvertently named her daughter after one of the largest net worth porn stars. Someone noted the similarity in time and she was so relieved. Personally I’m not up on my mass murderer names and I’d love someone to express that concern. Again. There is some wiggle room here. Your friend calls their baby Adolf, you expect they know about Hilter. But you probably cannot name everyone who has been tried for genocide.
We have had two instances where babies in the family were given names that turned out to have a previously unknown negative family association. And guess what… The baby completely changed the name association for the better…. In my experience, the baby wins not history.