Dear Swistle,
I’ve been a long-time reader of your blog, and I finally have the opportunity to ask advice from you and your readers! My husband and I are expecting a baby girl (our first) in the beginning of August. Our style tends towards classic, feminine names, with a preference for names that are “vintage revival” or reflect Irish heritage. My last name is Stove with an “n” instead of a “v”, and my husband’s last name sounds similar to Marriott. We plan on giving the baby the last name “Stove Marriott” with no hyphen. We have also considered making Stove a second middle name, but I worry it will get lost in the shuffle. We are leaning towards Eileen as a middle name (an honor name from my side of the family), but it could be changed.
Our top two:
Rose Eileen
Catherine EileenOur short list (for a sense of our naming style and potential future siblings):
Eleanor (nn Nora)
Brigid
Ada
Grace (don’t like the run-in “s” sound with Stove)
Mary
Margaret (nn Maggie)
Fiona
MaeveFor a boy, we were considering John or Patrick.
We have 2 major questions.
1. Does “Rose Stove Marriott” create an issue with the s/z sound in Rose running into Stove? As this name has floated around my head, it has sounded like less of an problem, but unfortunately the opposite has happened as my husband mulls it over!
2. Nicknames- I worry that Catherine will be given a nickname, and I prefer the long version of the name. We could envision using Kitty as a nickname at home, but I wouldn’t want that or another nickname to become her main name. I know she might choose a nickname herself as she gets older. Should this concern make us not use the name? On the other hand, some names on our short list (Eleanor, Margaret) dropped out of the top two because I envision calling her exclusively by the nickname, and not using the full name very often. This may not be a huge dealbreaker though! Do you have any advice on how to consider nicknames when choosing a name?
Thank you so much!
When I was first testing out the name Rose with the surname, I accidentally used the substitute surname instead of the real one. I tried it a few times, increasingly thinking “I WANT to be able to say it’s okay, and that PLENTY of names have a non-ideal sound and it’s FINE—but the Rose/Stove part hits my ear and mouth completely wrong: like a rhyme plus a tongue-twister (not just the -z/St- but also the matching single-syllable and matching long-O), and the almost-rhyme is somehow worse than if it were an actual rhyme.” Then I realized my mistake and tried it with the actual surname, and it seems much, much better to me. I still agree it has a bit of an unusual sound, and requires a little careful enunciation—but I just attended a graduation and heard thousands of names read aloud, and there are a lot of names out there that have an unusual sound and require a little careful enunciation, and everyone just goes with it and it’s no big deal.
Still, I felt some relief when I turned my mind to the Catherine option, which doesn’t have an unusual sound. I know a fair number of Catherines/Katherines/Kathryns of various ages, and here is what I have noticed about nicknames among the ones I know: The ones my mom’s age all go by Kathy/Cathy, exclusively. The ones my age all go by Kate or Katie, except for one whose parents gave her the by-then-already-dated nickname Kathy, and now as an adult she goes by Katherine. The ones in my kids’ generation go by Catherine or by Kat/Cat, and I can only think of one who goes by Katie. I have not encountered anyone going by Kit, but I would love to see that be the next standard nickname.
My advice about nicknames starts with saying that I feel a little uncertain about them, too. For our second child, who turned out to be a boy, our frontrunner girl name was Elizabeth. By the time we actually had a girl, I had decided I disliked all of the nicknames for Elizabeth and ONLY liked the full name, and so that ruled it out as a first name for me: I didn’t think I’d have much trouble getting her called Elizabeth as a child, but thought she could very well choose a nickname when she was older. On the other hand: it is fairly common for parents to think they don’t want a nickname, and then a nickname happens and the parents find they love it, and they see the nickname in a new light now that it’s attached to their actual child, and they feel the nickname suits the child far better than the full name. On the third hand, I had a coworker whose parents named her Elizabeth, and they hated the nickname Liz so they called her Beth right from the start in order to avoid it—and by the time she was in high school she was calling herself Liz and not Beth, and ten years later when I was working with her, she said they still hated the name Liz. So I have wondered if my decision not to use Elizabeth was a good one, or a misguided one. Well, but I love the name we DID choose so much more, it’s hard to even consider that at this point.
Keeping all that in mind, my GENERAL feeling is that if either parent ACTIVELY DISLIKES (as opposed to just preferring to avoid) any of the familiar nicknames for a particular name, it would be better to find a different name—and perhaps use the not-to-be-nicknamed name as a middle name, where it can be enjoyed without nearly as much concern about nicknames.
As for the issue of not really wanting to use Eleanor or Margaret because you think you’d almost exclusively use Nora/Maggie, that isn’t something that bothers me at all, and in fact I come down on the side of liking the whole idea of a formal full name and an everyday nickname—but I do know there are people who prefer to avoid it. I think I’d make the decision in the same way: Is it that you ACTIVELY DISLIKE the idea of the child being called by the full name, and you’re ONLY choosing the name in order to get the nickname? Or is it that you’re fine with them growing up and deciding they’d rather be called Eleanor/Margaret, and it’s just you’d PREFER to stick with the nickname?
I was looking over the rest of the short list to see if there were any I wanted to push you to consider using this time, and I notice that Fiona has the same repeating -on- sound of the first segment of the surname, which could be a plus or a minus. Margaret has the same starting letters (Mar-) and similar ending letters of Marriott (-et/-ott)—but perhaps that actual segment of the surname is different enough that it’s not an issue. Similarly: Mary repeats the first two syllables of the second half of the surname—unless it actually doesn’t.
Rose Sto-e Marriot sounds fine to me. But I wonder if you’d consider flipping the surnames? Rose Marriot Sto-e is lovely and eliminates the potential issue. (I actually see John Sto-e Marriot as more clunky, makes it sound like Johnston Marriot?)
For Catherine, I also agree best-laid plans are just that. We envisioned a specific nickname for our eldest that never felt right and she’s always been strictly no-nickname (her choice.) I just had an offside chat with colleagues this morning about formal names and nicknames – the names were Alexander and Matthew – and everyone else on the call was of the mind that if you give a child a longer name, all nicknames are fair game and you expect people to be too lazy to go with the formal name. So if you love Catherine, I’d have a nickname you do love ready to correct people who try to call her a nickname you don’t want. And then see how it goes once she’s here, you might even change your mind. And by the time she’d old enough to choose, she’ll choose. I do love Kit, as Swistle suggests.
I came here to suggest switching the surnames! I think that helps a lot with the problem, and if no one already has the double surname, switching the order doesn’t create inconsistencies with anything. (Although you might consider if there are other names where the reverse order might feel odd, like Margaret, and if that would cause issues for potential future children.)
On the nickname front – my son’s name has a very obvious nickname that we don’t use. We don’t have an alternate nickname either, because we chose the name based on loving the full name so very much. The obvious nickname is pretty popular right now, so he definitely gets it a lot, but we just persist in calling him by the full name and if people ask us we say that we don’t use the nickname, and most people consistently call him by the full name after a couple months. If we actively corrected the nickname it would obviously be even more consistent, but I don’t care enough to be confrontational about it, lol. I agree with Swistle that Catherine doesn’t have a super default nickname in the current generation so you would probably have even less trouble than we do, but it definitely does require being *okay* with the nickname down the road – even if you’re prepared to correct people consistently, you never know what your child will do with the name down the road.
I realized after posting this that my screen name might make it look like I have more expertise here than I actually do, lol. My name is not Catherine – Kit is a stretch nickname for a completely unrelated name, and I don’t go by it IRL. :)
I do love both Kit and Kat, though!
I like Catherine a lot. I know of several Catherines (of various spellings and ages) who go by their full name, and I don’t find it to be “too much.” (That being said, I’m not sure what I *would* find to be too much.)
Rose with your surname made me think of “rosetta stone” which is the name of both a company and an Egyptian artifact. I’m neutral on those references myself, but I do think they’d be something I’d want to factor in to my naming decision.
Not sure if you’re looking for other recommendations, but your list made me think of Vivienne and Eliza.
Rose Sto(v)e sounds fine to me – lovely, in fact! I don’t see an issue in using it.
I also love Catherine, but agree it depends on whether you prefer the full name, but would okay if she chooses a nickname down the line, or if you actively dislike the nicknames.
Anecdata: I have two young sons (one is three and the other not quite yet 1), and we gave them both longer formal names that could be nicknamed. In the elder child’s case, we prefer the full name, but didn’t mind the nicknames. So far, we’ve had no problem using the full name exclusively, and in fact the 3-year-old will correct anyone who tries to use a nickname (that comes from him, not from us!). I’ll be okay if he changes his mind down the line. For the baby, we used a preferred nickname almost exclusively, and that’s gone well so far, too. This may change as the kids get older, but for now everyone seems pretty willing to follow our lead on what to call the kids.
You have beautiful name options, and I don’t think you can go wrong with any of them. Best of luck, and let us know what you choose!
My 5yo’s called Susan exclusively and she’ll correct people too. Mostly, though, it’s just her brother who does. But he is definitely trying to be annoying when he says “Awwe, baby Suzie Woozie”. Because siblings
My experience having teens is that at a certain point you have no influence on the nickname bestowed by their peers. When they are older you don’t know a lot of their circle well. Both of my boys chose new variations of their names by age 15 (Think Billy instead of Will as an example). Also, by the time they are teens it doesn’t really matter as my identity doesn’t revolve so closely to my kids and lots of my circle don’t know them well either. (Hard to imagine when they are small)
Rose and Catherine are lovely; Rose Stove Marriott is fine, though I do think it will be a pain to insist on an unhyphenated double last name. I don’t know anyone with that setup; I suspect Stove will get lost constantly, just like a second middle.
May I nudge you toward Brigid?? I’d do “Bridget” as the spelling, but either way, great name!
I have a student named Bridget right now; it’s the first time I’ve met someone with this name. She’s 22 (I’m a college professor), and it’s so fun to say and write and just have a cool person embody a cool name. I LOVE it with your double last name. Brigid Stove-Marriott. Great name.
This is out of left field, but I wonder if you’d like Piper? It goes great with the last names. So do Lydia and Julia and Grace and Caroline.
CONGRATS! I’d love to hear what you choose!
Great name choices! I particularly love Rose, and I’d be inclined to flip your surnames to get Rose Marriott Stove – that way there is no lingering doubt about Rose and Stove running into each other. Added bonus, I think Stove would stand out more and be less likely to be assumed to be a middle name. Otherwise, I have to say I adore Maeve! It’s my most favourite name and I think it sounds amazing with both surnames in either order. And being short and sweet like Rose it avoids nickname issues.
I prefer Catherine with your surname. We chose a name with many nn options. My husband actively disliked one. My mom, unsurprisingly, chose to use that nn as her special pet name for my child. It hasn’t been an issue and I continue to enjoy all of the nn options. My mother child has a name that is nn proof. That child still gets nn’s, they just aren’t derived from the given name.
You have such a lovely selection of names here to choose from. They’re all beautiful and I especially like Eleanor, Margaret, Catherine and my own name(!). About the nickname concern, I found that my nickname preferences changed after the baby was named and grew into a child – for my first child I didn’t like the main default nickname and had several colleagues who went by that and it felt unavoidable, and it was a real issue for me when she was born, but now I would not be fussed if she chose to use it in the future. I think she’ll grow into whichever nickname she picks.
I think Catherine looks like a lot of name when it’s written down but isn’t so long when you say it (fewer syllables than Eleanor or Fiona, for example). It’s a beautiful name!
I prefer Catherine to Rose, perhaps because I have a daughter named Katherine. She has almost exclusively gone by her full name with friends, teachers, coaches, and coworkers. Her sisters and brothers-in-law call her Katherine or Kate, but only her maternal grandfather was allowed (by her) to call her Katie. Paternal grandma tried to call her Kathy, but that was shut down pretty quickly. All to say, it is possible to stick with the full name.
I also think I like the sound of Catherine Eileen better than Rose Eileen. Interestingly, one of the middle names we considered for our Katherine was Irene.
The only drawback I can see to Catherine is it’s a long first name paired with a long last name. Our last name, which our daughter intends to keep if she marries, is also nine letters, so 18 letters altogether. Your Catherine’s first and full last would be slightly longer.
Best wishes to you!
Here’s my experience as an Elizabeth who has gone by only Elizabeth in public (although I’ll get Elle or Ellie at home). There are a few stubborn or forgetful people who always default to calling me Liz, but 99% of people stick with Elizabeth. When I get a new job or meet new people, I will have people ask if I have a nickname I prefer. I just breezily say most of the Elizabeth nicknames with my middle and last name veer towards weather girl territory so I like the whole name. People laugh and it helps them remember to call me by my whole name. If you want your daughter to be Catherine, just make sure her teachers in school are clear that they need to call her by her full name and that will get most other kids/parents/people from extracurriculars calling her by her full name
The issue is that the Elizabeth or Catherine may grow up and decide for herself that she would like to be called Liz or Ellie or Catie. So that’s why we double-check that the parents are okay with the nicknames (even if they’d prefer the nicknames not be used), as opposed to actively disliking them: the child themselves will have a say, later on, and they won’t necessarily choose to enforce the full name. If the child DOES choose to use the full name, I don’t think they’ll have much trouble making that happen.
I think Catherine Sto-e Marriott has an amazing sound, followed by Ada and Brigid. I would if you would like Freya or Felicity.
For what it’s worth, it seems generally accepted among the kids/parents these days that going by a full name is no big deal, no nicknames required. Of course, as Swistle mentioned, a child could decide on their own that they would like a nickname and it might be one you dislike.
I think Rose Stove Marriot sounds too rhymey. And it kinda gets stuck in the mouth, coming out like “Rostove.” Your other name choices don’t seem to have that issue. Catherine Stone Marriot sounds amazing, like an actress or Supreme Court Justice. I like the nickname Cate (spelled with a C, like Cate Blanchette), but I also know Catherines/Katherines/Kathryns who go by their full name and no one bats an eye. Eleanor, Brigid, Fiona, and your other choices are all great! I tend to like your 2-3 syllable names better than your one-syllable choices (Grace, Rose, Maeve). Just a personal preference for slightly longer names.
You could always use Rose as a middle name. Catherine Rose Stove Marriot sounds lovely. Fiona Rose Stove Marriot also sounds great (“Fiona Rose” sounds like a particularly beautiful first-middle pairing). Grace and Maeve also make great middle names.
Either Rose or Catherine, or any of your others would work nicely, imo
I’d need to be careful with Rose Stove M., but then, most people don’t take 12 years to pronounce s’s consistently correct. Oddly, Grace Stove isn’t as hard for me, probably because of the different vowels.
As for Catherine, that’s not too long in my book. Especially since people will mostly be calling her by one name at a time. Unless you’re really mad at her ;) . AND I FIGHT ANYONE WHO SAYS MY NAME HAS TO BE SHORTENED!!!!! Most of the time, though, it’s not a big issue. Yeah, I need to correct someone now and then but it’s not an everyday or even every week kind of thing.
I love Catherine – and I think the “C” spelling is the best if you’re trying to avoid nicknames (from a comment I remember seeing on another name site, since the “K” spellings lend more easily to nicknames – written from a neutral perspective on whether easy nicknames would be a plus or minus).
This is my experience as a Katherine, so paying more attention to the usage of this one name. By and large Katherine’s are more likely to have a nickname from the get-go, while Catherine’s are less likely to have a nickname and if they do it might not be as pervasive and/or from infancy. There are of course exceptions to this “rule”.
Rose Sto-e sounded familiar to me, so I googled it and it is the name of a singer (of Sly and the family sto-es) and there is also a band called The Sto-e Roses. Not that either is a bad association, it just gave me the feeling of “where have I heard this?”
Anyway, I think both Rose and Catherine are really excellent choices! If you’re open to switching the surnames if you use Rose, I think it also has the advantage of separating the nouns in the name so you avoid the possible adjective-noun pairing of “Rose Sto-e”.
As soon as you described your naming preferences one name sprung to mind and I skipped down the list to see if it was on there before going back and reading the rest. I think Maeve would be PERFECT.
But Rose and Catherine are also very pretty, and I don’t think Rose and (not) Stove is problematic to say. In terms of long vs nicknames, I have a Nathaniel who I planned to call just Nat almost exclusively. But we actually use Nathaniel much more than we anticipated although he will tell us he’s ‘not Nathaniel, I’m Natty!’ (He’s 2). The only slight issue is that I strongly dislike Nate… but I’m in the UK and I don’t think that’s a default nickname in quite the same way as it is in the US. And so far most people don’t call him Nate, just the odd parent who mis-hears Nat.
Catherine is lovely and certainly do-able without a nickname, but it might eliminate Maggie and Nora as potential sibling names (if you care about that at all at this point). Catherine-only with a little sister named Margaret-called-Maggie or Eleanor-called-Nora will have a lot harder time not somehow ending up as Catherine-called-Nickname than if her sister’s name is Maeve or Mary.
I like both names and about equally. I know you didn’t ask about the last name, but I’m going to put in a word for hyphenation if you want both last names recognized as last names.
Yeah, people sometimes choose just the 2nd half of my kids’ surname when the person uses it, but I suspect its less of an issue than if there wasn’t a hyphen. The 2nd half is their father’s, which he doesn’t particularly like. We seriously considered using just mine for them, but we didn’t want to upset his parents, so hyphen with emphasis on the first. (especially since they’re still learning to spell them)
Yes I agree. Say you’re in a doctor’s waiting room or a teacher is reading the register, it’s pretty much impossible to know without a hyphen whether a kid has two last names, a surname-esque middle or uses two first names. My kids are hyphenated and I like that it removes that ambiguity, although I wasn’t necessarily anticipating that my name, which is the final part, would be the bit that some people drop – I imagine it would be the other way around with no hyphen.