Hi there,
Recently discovered your blog as I am nearing our due date and not settled on a name combo that we love. I love your creativity and candor – that is what we need!
We are due 12/10/21 with our first child and looking for help with our girl name. If it’s a boy, he will be Finnegan Beach. Beach is my maiden name. Our surname is like Riley with a K.
NICKNAME / SURNAME FLOW
My husband and I have had our hearts set on the name “Leland” for a girl. That was the name of the street I lived on when we fell in love. “Lee” is also a family name, and we like it for a nickname. We could also use “Lindy.” While I think Leland Riley sounds nice, I worry about the situation where the nickname becomes so dominant that we have a “Lee Riley (with a K)” on our hands. Is that just odd-sounding since the nickname is embedded in the surname? How much should you take the nickname-surname flow into consideration?Our last name ending in the -EE sound is tricky as so many nicknames end in -EE or -IE.
While we love Leland, I want the honest truth if we should steer clear given the obvious nickname and how that flows with our last name. Other names we’ve considered: Penelope and Eloise.
MIDDLE NAME
Then there comes the question of the middle name. Because “Leland” contains softer sounds and is traditionally masculine, I liked the idea of a middle name with some punch or something more feminine (or both!). We came across the name “Verve” and both were excited by it. It’s a quality that doesn’t feel limiting (I hope) as it can be expressed in so many different ways, but it embodies a characteristic that matters to both me and my husband- living with passion & enthusiasm. We thought “Lindy Verve” was a cute nickname combo. But does “Leland Verve” sound alright? If not, any other ideas for a strong middle name for Leland?We also considered putting my maiden name “Beach” as a middle, but I wish it was a bit more delicate for a baby girl. Wondered about other names that evoke the seaside and might be a bit prettier?
Thanks in advance for any wisdom you can provide! We’re keeping the names a secret and I’m second-guessing everything! Want to make sure we don’t make a mistake.
Thanks!
I hope it is a good sign that it took me a minute to understand why Lee Riley-with-a-K would be a potential problem. After I understood, I thought about it for awhile and I still think it’s fine. Partly this is because I don’t think nickname/surname issues are anywhere near as serious as given-name/surname issues (though I do think you’re wise to think them through ahead of time), and partly it’s because for whatever reason the end of the surname doesn’t hit my ear or my brain as if it’s the same as “Lee.” I mean, I know it IS! But it doesn’t process that way. At most it gives the name a pleasing sound, without me immediately realizing it’s the repetition that makes it so.
I would go so far as to say that Lee Riley-with-a-K seems like less of a potential issue than some of the potential nicknames for Penelope and Eloise: Nellie Riley-with-a-K and Ellie Riley-with-a-K lean even harder on repetitive sounds by adding those additional syllables (though I still think those are both fine), while Penny Riley-with-a-K evokes penny candy (again, I think it’s fine).
I am less sure about the middle name Verve. The word verve is not currently used as a name in the United States. When considering something new as a name, I like to see if I can get it to sink in as a name by finding other names with similar sounds/sections. For Verve, I am having trouble: we don’t ever seem to do that verv/virv/vurv sound for names. Vern(e) is a little similar. Marv, short for Marvin, is a little similar. Harvey, maybe. Irving. Minerva. Ferb, like from Phineas and Ferb. Mostly I’m thinking of non-name words: verb, swerve. Verve is not growing on me or clicking in as a name as I consider it; I realize this is hugely subjective, but you asked me to be candid, and the name Verve does not strike me as a pleasing sound or as a name that is fun to say. It also strikes me as a word-name that could seem like either a joke (“Well, Verve IS her middle name!”) or like a disappointed hope, depending on her temperament. It is possible for many different temperaments to live lives of passion/enthusiasm in their own ways—but the name Verve specifies the particular way you have in mind.
I like the idea of using your maiden name Beach as the middle. Using a beach-related word instead feels like a serious step down from the honor name. If you want something more feminine, would you consider using your own first name as her middle name? I seriously regret not giving this idea more consideration when naming my own daughter. Or would your middle name work?
It worries me a little that your other two finalist girl names are familiar and relatively common traditional first names names currently used exclusively for girls, while Leland is a relatively unusual surname name currently used almost exclusively for boys. If you are planning to have more children, are you able to put together two sister names you like? It can feel silly to be thinking ahead to the names of hypothetical future children when it’s so difficult to name even the current one—but some forethought now can save a struggle later. If it turns out that the name Leland is an outlier for your usual style, and all of the rest of the names on your list are familiar girl-usage names, you may want to reconsider the use of Leland for a girl, to avoid painting yourself into a very difficult corner later on. (Leland could make a wonderful and meaningful middle name: Penelope Leland Riley-with-a-K, Eloise Leland Riley-with-a-K, Finnegan Leland Riley-with-a-K.) If, on the other hand, you have names such as Winslow and Clarence and Merritt and Ellison and Malone on your girl-name list, you are all set and my concern is unnecessary.
My feelings really mirrored Swistle’s. It’s so subjective, but I was surprised that you find Verve more delicate for a girl than Beach. Verve is very harsh (and a bit awkward) to my ear whereas I think Beach is a fantastic middle name for boy or girl. Unless you’re avoiding Beach for a girl because it’s not so far off sound wise from a common swear word for women, which I guess could be a fair concern, but I think the pros outweigh the cons.
Love Finnegan Beach. I like Leland Beach too, but I have a similar question as Swistle about if this is a style outlier. That seems common for a first child. My oldest’s name isn’t the same style as my other kids, but I think that only bothers me and no one else notices at all lol.
Good luck and congrats on your winter baby!
I agree with Swistle about Leland + Eloise or Leland + Penelope not sounding like sister sets. Eloise and Penelope are very traditional girl names, so Leland would get mistaken on paper for a boy sometimes. (I would consider other names for any future daughters.)
As for middles:
Leland Ruby
Leland Piper
Leland Flora
Leland Tessa
Leland Petra
I think Lee Riley is great. I’m on the fence about Verve and think Beach works best with a very name-ish name. Would you like Vitality, instead of Verve? Or there are many many names with meanings similar to Verve. Or you could get to Lindy Verve as a nickname with a double middle like Vera Vivian. Or I also like Swistle’s suggestion of finding a name from your family tree. But I also think Verve is ok if nothing has the same amount of meaning for you. It strikes me as one of those names that sounds surprising exactly three times before it blends in with all the other names that would sound weird if we weren’t so used to them.
Also…Name + word parents like is a pretty well trodden path for nicknames. I don’t think Verve has to be on the birth certificate if you want to call your child Lindy Verve affectionately.
I agree that I don’t love Verve, or at least that I’d like it more with a more common first name.
Leland doesn’t bother me as a first name. If you wanted to avoid Lee as a nickname and don’t like Lindy (I am not a huge fan of Charles Lindbergh’s racist politics so would skip it for myself), you could do Lea, Lela, Landy, Lindsy, or Lainey…probably others too!
If you want a beach-sounding middle, Mara, Miriam, Mary, or Mariel all are related to the ocean. Mariel and Eloise share a sound so that could be good: Leland Mariel K*ley. Lake is also a name, like the actress Lake Bell.
I do not like Verve as a middle name with Leland. I agree with all of Swistle’s concerns, and on top of that, you expressed that you would like to balance out Leland with a feminine middle name, and I don’t think Verve reads as particularly feminine. I think if you go with Leland Verve, then your daughter will have two uncommon not-particularly-feminine names, and it might be better to go Leland Penelope or Leland Eloise etc.
What about going straight for Leigh? That spelling is definitely “girl” and I think the syllable stress of your last name takes the focus off the similarity of sounds. It actually sounds great to my ear – “Leigh K/Riley.” A 2 or 3 syllable middle would be great!
If you don’t like that, I think the common threads of your girl name list are Evsounds and L sounds. Do you like:
Elodie
Melody
Zelie
Eleanor
Bellamy (Bellamy Beach sounds great. I did a quick Google search to make sure there isn’t a place called Bellamy Beach somewhere and couldn’t find anything prominent…)
Nellie (maybe short for something… Eleanor or Penelope perhaps)
Stella
I’m surprised Swistle didn’t mention this, as she is usually good at identifying those issues, but all I can hear is Leak iley. Not ideal for me.
If not Verve maybe Verity?
Yes!! I was going to suggest this too! I love Verity!
A second vote for Leigh instead of Leland. My mom’s middle name is Lee and she has always hated having the boy spelling. Even though you love the name Leland, you might want to think about if your daughter will love having such an unusual boy’s name, and having to constantly explain it when she’s older. What about reversing things and doing Leland for a boy and Finley for a girl?
The idea of using Leland as her official first name, and calling her Lela just makes my heart smile. I also agree that Leigh is a far preferable spelling for a girl (I know of multiple Lee’s, all men – but there are no wrong choices here).
Verve is giving me zero flow. Veronica, perhaps? You’ll get the same Ver- sound in the first syllable. Good luck in your naming path!!
Ooh, I really like this! Leland called Lela. Good thought, Sarah! :)
I think a sibset of Finnegan Beach + Leland _____ goes quite nice.
I’m not into the Verve middle name. I just think of the English rock band or skateboarding.
I like the idea of using Beach for a boy or girl – people will figure out sex/gender just fine.
Other ideas related to Beach for a girl: Isla, Maren, Marina
I think the rhyming issue might depend on your accent. If you put the emphasis on the first syllable in your last name it’s a non issue but if you put the emphasis on the second syllable it rhymes. I think it might be more pronounced with a southern accent (ie I’m pretty sure if Dolly Parton said it it would rhyme, Alex Trebek not so much).
@Sarah totally sold Leland for me, with that nickname Lela! Yes!
I do love a meaningful name that is useable. It deserves first or middle spot for sure.
I was also coming here to wonder if you’d use Finley/Finleigh for a girl? Where I am, Finley is used a lot for girls (especially paired with sister Harper.) I could totally see a Leland & Finleigh sibset if you have two girls. Or a Finnegan & Leland brother set. I don’t get the leaking thing cause isn’t (K)iley said KY?
Just wanted to raise that Leland Beach sounds like a place (and in fact is a beach in Michigan, just googled it!) – not a dealbreaker but something I’d want to be aware of going in.
What about Vera as a middle name? I also think Leland would be a lovely middle name to go with your other girl name choices.
Heads up, Swistle, there is one instance of Riley spelled with the K in her quoted letter. May want to edit that for googleability.
I love how much MEANING these names have for you. It feels extra special. I would quibble a bit over the middle names—Finnegan Beach sounds fine, but Leland Beach less so, for me. Perhaps just because I’ve known more Finnegans than Lelands, Leland Beach sounds like it was named after someone’s last name. Leland Verve is fun, but I wouldn’t want it as my name. Finnegan Verve, sure. Eloise Verve, sure. Leland Penelope, sure. But since Leland is already unusual especially for a girl, Leland Verve feels like A Lot.
Also, Lindy Riley isn’t my preferred flow given it almost rhymes. Lee Riley seems fine, though.
I don’t know how you feel about double middles, but Leland Eloise Beach Riley is a pretty magnificent name. Not a ton of syllables, but a ton of meaning, and a gorgeous flow.
Thanks, fixed it!
Just some numbers for the names you mentioned and their usage in 2020:
Finnegan – 716 boys/ outside top 1000 for girls
Leland – 600 some boys / outside top 1000 for girls
Penelope was given to ~6k girls
Eloise was given to about ~2k girls.
I’d assume Leland and Finnegan were brothers. I’d assume Leland and Penelope were a boy/girl sib set. This may be inconsequential to you and not a factor to consider.
The Le-Lee thing sounds very strange/ singsongy in my mouth.
Lorna popped into my mind as a possible alternative. It is not in common use, but it is def female like Penelope and Eloise. It has a Scottish/English vibe like Finnegan. Strong L sound like your other female names. Lorna Beach Riley. Lorna Cove. Lorna Haven. Lorna Waverly. Lorna Leland Riley.
I’m not a fan of Verve. Rhymes with nerve and swerve and then the P rhyme, too. No one has mentioned that, so….
Alternatives – Bliss, Blythe, Constance, Selah, Lavinia.
My heart went pitter-patter when I read Leland! It is meaningful to you and has the right soft, melodic sound to work as a girl name. Lee Riley doesn’t sound matchy to me because the emphasis is on the first syllable for Riley. Also usually her first name + last name combo for things like school documents, awards announcements, diplomas, doctor appointments, getting called to the principal’s office (just covering all my bases) will be Leland Riley, so that makes the flow of Lee Riley or Lindy Riley pretty low-concern for me. You could use Lucky Lindy as a word-y nickname instead of Lindy Verve. I like Lee a ton for a girl, it’s brisk and breezy but dignified too, and not getting much use lately.
I do agree, though, that since it isn’t a traditional girl name you might want to go more feminine in the middle. Leland Eloise Riley or Leland Eloise Beach Riley (and then keep Beach in the middle for all future kids?? It’s a great surname).
I like the story for Leland and I also like the above suggestion of Lela. For a middle name what about a synonym for Verve – Ardor, Vivacity, Vitality, Elan, Sparkle
What about Vesper instead of Verve?
Leland is a thoughtful name, but probably reads more boy than gender neutral, and Lee also reads a little bit more boy than gender neutral (which is just fine!) however I’d pick a more clearly feminine middle just to give her options and the ability to convey gender in writing if she wants to.
My grandmother was Lee by the way.
I have a female friend with a very masculine first name that I never would have thought of as a girl’s name. But her middle name is Marie, and she often puts both names on correspondence, applications, etc. to avoid the awkwardness of “Actually it’s Ms. ___ not Mr. ___” or “Um, yes, that’s me.” Leland to me falls into a similar categorywhere I wouldn’t even consider that it might be a girl (although I can see the appeal now that it’s mentioned). I actually fall into a minority of rather liking Verve (it feels similar to Verity, Vera, or Vivian and has a positive meaning), but with Leland specifically, I agree that a simple feminine middle name could be a great gift to your daughter.
100% into Leland. Also, as someone suggested, Leland and Fin(variation) works for boys or girls.
A little unsure about Verve, or at least it falls into a name I would not want for myself. I would personally use one of the more feminine names you have considered—I especially like Eloise as a middle, and the suggestion of Veronica is great too.
Other options:
Leland Winifred
Leland Wilhelmina
Leland Paloma
Leland Cordelia
Leland Amelia
Other word names that might work:
Scout, Sage, Reverie, Honor, Verity (which has been mentioned).
And all that said: Verve is fine. You should use it if you love it! If there’s a place to put a name that is a little off the wall or not for everybody, it’s in the middle slot. I also like Moxie but not sure about it with the last name.
For the issue of Lee rhyming with Riley I think it’s a non issue unless you put the emphasis on the second syllable of Riley or if her name had two syllables eg Lily Riley.
I’m not a huge fan of boys names on girls but the times they are a changing and if you like it and it has meaning to you then all well and good. Personally I’d put it in the middle slot.
I think some more thought is needed for the full name. Leland Verve Riley or Leland Beach Riley feels a step too far in the unusual direction – Not just a name more commonly used for boys than girls but also using either a word or a surname for a middle. I think you need to choose one or the other. Unusual first name or unusual middle name, but not both.
It probably also doesn’t help that the surname is a common girls name. Could be setting her up for being called Riley Leland a lot.
One suggestion I have is to substitute Verve for Viva. Similar meaning but sounds more name like and more feminine.
Hope this helps.
Verve remind me of a girl I know called Vogue. When I first heard it I was surprised but it actually works as a name.
Leland, I’m not sure. I think there is a category of American boys names that are wild west but sound softer. I put Leland in that category. I could see it crossing over to girl eventually but you will be ahead of the curve. I can see it working.
I do think the two names together is bolder than either individually. I would use one or the other YMMV.
I think Lee (K)Riley sounds fine, and I don’t feel it has to be spelled Leigh, maybe because I knew a female Lee in college. Plus Lee feels like a more natural nickname for Leland.
Of Verve and Beach I prefer Beach, or maybe a Mar name (Maris is a good one, as it means “of the sea” but they all have a sea meaning). There’s something to be said for not diluting the family connection, though, and keeping Beach as is.
The question of whether Leland is an outlier for you is a good one to consider. Penelope Beach or Eloise Maris are nice, too.
What about the spelling Leighland – which would lean more towards the feminine spelling of Leigh. I also love the suggestion of the nickname Lela. What about the name Leila? More matches the popularity of Finn/Finnegan. Or just Leigh on it’s own also works.
I agree that Verve is not my favorite name. Other suggestions Vera, which as been mentioned or the German name Vernada which according to nameberry means brave as a bear!
If it’s the nn Lindy you love so much, have you considered Linden?
Otherwise, if it’s that meaningful I’d put Leland in the middle with a more namey first (like Eloise or Penelope). I noticed the Lee- Riley immediately, even not as a nickname. Ellie and Nellie aren’t so problematic IMO because nns are not a given and don’t need to be said with the surname because there’s the full name option, and there are other nickname options for both. With Leland, the problem sound is in the full name too so there’s no avoiding that.
Verve sounds a bit silly no matter what it’s paired with.
Vera Leland Riley, Vera Riley
Eliza Leland Riley, Eliza Riley
Lucille Beach Riley, Lucille Riley
Estelle Leland/Beach Riley, Estelle Riley
Vivian Beach Riley, Vivian Riley
Stella Beach Riley, Stella Riley
Evelyn Beach Riley, Evelyn Riley
Fiona Leland Riley, Fiona Riley
Caroline Beach Riley, Caroline Riley
Lila Beach Riley, Lila Riley
Quinn Leland Riley, Quinn Riley
Maya Leland Riley, Maya Riley
Margot Leland Riley, Margot Riley
Thea Beach Riley, Thea Riley
Juliet Leland Riley, Juliet Riley
Ada Leland Riley, Ada Riley
Elowen Beach Riley, Elowen Riley
These first all seem much more similar in style to Eloise and Penelope, while Leland seems more an outlier.
I just can’t see Leland as a girl’s name. To me it reads 100% masculine, and to me sounds regionally southern. (I’m not sure why, but i picture someone calling out for their husband Leland in a southern accent). What about Lelani? It’s similar in letters and sounds, and more feminine.
Or Lydia? Lyddie is a cute nickname!
Melinda? (nickname Mel or Millie or Lindy?)
I totally get that you lived on a street called Leland when you met, but picture this as a name on a Starbucks cup, in the school yearbook, being called out at the doctor’s office waiting room, on a diploma, on her dorm door, etc…I’m not sure Leland would work in all those situations.
I was thinking Lelani too! Though the rhyming with the last name would be stronger with Lelani.
I have an uncle Leland, and he is the only person I’ve known with that name, and so it is all male for me. I don’t care for it at all for a girl, and it doesn’t pass the “would I want this name?” test.
I think I’d be especially salty if my name was Leland (Lee) and I had two sisters named Eloise and Penelope—both very feminine names. I DO like the Lela suggestion a lot, but otherwise I’d suggest Leigh or Leah/Leigha, which is one of my all time favorite girl names. :)
If you like the nickname Lindy, the Melinda suggestion is cute. Or Belinda. Or Linden. Or I love Lydia (Lyddie).
Definitely go with Beach over Verve. Beach makes sense, it’s a family name, and IMO evokes more pleasant imagery. Verve just feels like a random word choice, and not even a particularly melodic word. I love the verity suggestion. I know a little girl named Verity, and it’s such a pretty name with such a great meaning. Or Fern? Has kind of that same sound.
Good luck! Love all the thought you’re putting into the decision…so much fun to think through!
I want to preface my comment by saying: This is my personal taste and I do not think there is actually anything wrong with your choices.
However, I strongly think you should use Leland as a middle, should you have a girl. It mirrors Beach perfectly; it is a little unconventional, a little unexpected, has strong personal meaning, and sounds different and interesting for a girl. But the fact that Finnegan is a familiar boy name, and your other girl choices are familiar girl names, makes me think Leland is a real outlier for your first names. Plus, using it as a middle does not preclude you from using the nickname Lee, or calling her Leland. I could easily see a Penelope Leland “Lee” or Eloise Leland “Lee.” If she doesn’t like going by Leland or Lee layer on, she has a plethora of options.
Verve… I would not like to be named Verve. It isn’t even about the meaning so much as the sound. I actually have a hard time saying the word and the name as a whole, “Leland Verve Riley.” It doesn’t have much flow nor does it seem to have any personal connection to you or your partner. And honestly, of I saw Leland Verve Riley-with-a-K on a form at work, I’d assume someone had mixed up the first/middle/last name spots.