Hi Swistle,
I was recently double names and thought this might be the sort of thing your readers would care about.
Here is the question: When do two names become one name? Are names like “Mary Kate”, “Mary Elizabeth”, “Mary Jane” one name or two names? If your middle name is something like “Mary Kate”, do you tell people you have two names or one middle name? Do hyphens matter? What do you do about initials if you do have two names that are actually one name?
My middle name is the middle example and I always just say I have one middle name and write both into any forms that request a middle name (no hyphens). I’m in Canada so both middle names show up on official documents, and sometimes my initials are put as ME instead of just M. I think this really depends on how your local government chooses to input information and the fact I like the names as a set contributes to how I characterize them.
I can also see the flip side of this dispute where without the hyphen, two names are just… two names. Obviously preference has a lot to do with it.
I think where the dividing line is for me is a combination of:
1) Is this double name already an accepted single name (i.e. Mary Something)?
2) Do the names bounce together well? (i.e. Taylor Grace, Samantha Jo, Rebecca Anne all sound like “one name”)
3) Is the name clearly meant to be two names? (i.e. is the second middle name a mother’s birth name relegated to the second middle name spot? do the names totally clash?)Which brings me around to the idea of how do two single names turn into a known “one name” situation?
These these types of things keep me up at night at I’m hoping other people are also in this boat.
K.
I almost skipped this one because at first it seemed too easy: it’s two names (two initials) if they are not connected (Mary Kate) and one name (one initial) if they are (Mary-Kate, MaryKate). A space is how we show that two names are separate; a hyphen or a visibly-deleted space is how we show our intent that the the two names be treated as one name. But then almost right away I thought of an example that didn’t fit, which led me to a lot of other examples I wasn’t sure about, and before I knew it I was tempted to skip it because it was too hard! Well, this is what makes for interesting discussions!
Here was the first example I thought of: I know someone named Mary Ann, and her name is Mary Ann to the extent that it would be jarringly wrong to call her Mary; but/and if she’s writing her name as an initial and a surname she writes M. Surname: her name is Mary Ann, one name. But also two. How does that work with my first paragraph? Furthermore, when she signs an email informally, without her surname, she sometimes writes “M.A.” to represent a quick writing of her first name. Even more confusing!
And what about surnames? My understanding is that many people with a hyphenated surname use the first initial of the whole thing: Koning-Dekker is represented by the initial K. But one of the teachers in our school has a hyphenated surname, and she has the kids call her Mrs. K-D. That doesn’t mean she’d necessarily put it that way on a form (as K.D.? K.-D.?), but it makes me wonder, and makes me think the answer to this question is more complicated than I thought.
I think part of the answer is that the name’s position makes a difference: a two-part first name is different than a two-part middle name is different than a two-part surname. My kids each have two middle names, and those are definitely two names, and those are definitely two initials; if a form only lets us use one initial, we use the first initial, but that doesn’t mean the two names are or function as one: it is the form that is wrong. (I have two middle names and default to my second initial.) But that doesn’t mean it’s the same with first names or surnames, and in fact we already have several examples where it’s not or it might not be.
You know what I think it probably boils down to in the end is (1) the original intent of the name(s) (i.e., how the namer thought of the name(s) when giving them) and (2) how the named person feels about the name(s). My acquaintance Mary Ann feels like she has ONE name that happens to have a space as one of the letters. She has ONE first initial (except when signing just M.A., interestingly—I wonder if she does that to help avoid being called Mary?). But another Mary Ann might feel she has TWO names, and might write her first-name initials as M.A. always. Same with surnames: some people with two surnames, hyphenated or not, might write them as two initials, some as one.
I think you’re right that it matters if, say, one middle name is the other parent’s surname: it makes it clear that the name stands alone in a sense, and wasn’t necessarily meant to combine with the other middle name, or to be used to summon the child in for dinner. This also seems like it could factor into double surnames: even when hyphenated, the parents might not want it considered “one name” per se, if it was done that way because it was important to include both names. Or they might! Perhaps the whole family took that hyphenated surname on purpose to make One New Family Name! It’s complicated, is what I’m saying.
And I think you’re right to point out that, for example, Mary _____ names have their own established usage. If I change my example from my acquaintance Mary Ann, to, say Emma Jo, suddenly it seems even more difficult to figure out.
I wonder, too, if it matters when a name already exists in one- and two-name options. Mary Ann and also Marianne and also Maryann, for example. Does that make us feel more as if “Mary Ann” can be one name? For me, I think it does—while simultaneously making me more open to the idea of it as two! It’s more like that usage makes me understand it can be either way.
And the particular naming culture of a local area is going to make a difference. If a ton of kids are going around named John Michael as a first name, it would likely lead to a feeling of that being “a first name”—i.e., one name. Or what about an area where most kids are called by their first + middle? If every parent is yelling out the door “SOPHIA JO, CHARLOTTE ROSE, COME IN FOR DINNER,” will that lead to the feeling that hearing two names is still hearing two names, rather than hearing one double first name?
It seems to me that the easiest and most straightforward examples are the hyphenated or deleted-space names in the first or middle position (rather than in the surname position, where there are societal/symbolic complications): Emma-Jo Catherine Dekker, or EmmaJo Catherine Dekker, or Catherine Emma-Jo Dekker, or Catherine EmmaJo Dekker. In all of those examples, it seems as if intent pairs well with feeling. I would guess that MOST people named Emma-Jo would think of that as one name with one initial, and that MOST people with the middle name Emma-Jo would think the same. Things cross back into complicated if, for example, Emma-Jo ends up going by E.J. as a nickname. Well! This is why I think it boils down to namer’s intent + namee’s feeling, and there isn’t a way to draw a firm solid line, which is also pleasing because it means there isn’t a specific rule that everyone needs to follow.
Okay, I am looking over the tangled mess of this answer and I don’t have the oomph to tidy it up. Let’s see what others think about when it’s ONE name and when it is TWO.
My mom’s parents intended to name her Rose Marie as a first name. But the hospital staff put Marie in the middle name slot, so she ended up just being Rose/Rosie and replacing Marie with her maiden name when she married my dad.
Weirdly enough, a lot of people have thought her name is Rosemary. Maybe Rose Marie does sound more like one name because Rosemary exists, even though they sound different?
Just to add to the ambiguity, my granddaughter is Rosemarie, all one name.
That is a lot to think about. I’ve got nothing to say but “it depends” which you’ve already adequately pointed out.
My given name is like this: Mary [pretend the middle name is Rosalie or another name for which Rose is an obvious nickname] [last name]. I have only ever gone by Mary Rose. (It’s actually another quite common Mary double name, but just for the example). My name is definitely Mary Rose and I think of it as one name, though made up of two words; I don’t go by Mary; I initial things M.R.; I don’t personally like the look of Mary-Rose but much prefer it to MaryRose which looks like a typo to me.
“Hi I’m Mary Rose.” “Hi Mary, how are you?” is the kind of interaction I have either in person or over email at least once a day. At least in my corner of the world, I have enough trouble with the double first name that I wouldn’t give my child one. Maybe if my last name were something like Smith, but otherwise no. Our databases and forms just do not seem capable of coping.
I have a life-long friend who was Mary Beth when she was young. When she was in high school, she decided it should be Mary Elizabeth. During college, she decided it should be MaryElizabeth without the space. After college, she decided it should be Maryelizabeth. I’m not sure if she had it legally changed or not. She is very adamant that her parents wanted it to be this way. I’m not quite as sure since she was Mary Beth when I first met her. She has a sister named Lois Ann, who still goes by both names, space, both capitalized.
I have a friend named Mary Elizabeth (Elizabeth is her middle name), who has been called Mary Beth all her life. She writes it Marybeth and signs her name M.B., though her true initials are MEP she initials things MBP.
Many thoughts here. It all boils down to: it’s complicated.
My daughters middle name is Rose, after her great aunt Rosemarie. Everyone called her Rose but every time I ask questions about Rosemarie v Rose, I get an answer that no one ever called her Rosemarie, her name was Rose, but it’s not a nickname. It’s just the first part of her name. It is very confusing but the fact that it’s two names that can be separated middies the waters. (Where as my name is Alexandra, I exclusively go by Lexa, which more feels like my name. But I know it’s a nickname, ya know?)
My daughter has a hyphenated (long ass) last name but we put the hyphen in there bc we didn’t want one of the names dropped. We wanted them tied together. When we label things for her, they all say “Frankie L-D”. It’s shorthand for her compound last name. Also, her names don’t fit on labels. Sorry, kid.
Yes! My kids are G-P for exactly those tying together reasons.
My daughter has a double name, but we choose to use the first as her first name and the second as her middle name. We call her by both, all the time. On school forms, I smoosh them together with no space between and leave the middle initial spot blank, most of the time. Otherwise, her teachers insist on calling her only by her first name, not by both names, as we intended.
I totally agree that the person bestowing or wearing the name decides. Paperwork definitely complicates it. When I married, I didn’t take my husband’s surname, but on certain ID (passport and DL) I added his name as a second last name. Not hyphenated. That gets messed up a lot, one or the other gets dropped.
My kids have two middle names. One kid has my surname as her second middle. The other has a family name as her second middle. It’s funny because even at 4 years old, she calls herself by her three names, whereas she refers to her sister with only two names (first name and first middle.)
I definitely like the look of a name with a space between it, as opposed to ‘smooshing’ or hyphens, but I consider the two names with a space to be their name.
All that to say, it’s an interesting discussion.
If you don’t mind my asking, if you didn’t take your husband’s last name legally (as in on social security documents), how can you add it to your passport and driver’s license? Or do you mean that you did add his name with the social security office, but don’t include it when you introduce yourself socially?
Good question. I probably didn’t explain it clearly. I’m in Canada and (at least in my province) after marriage you are free to use your maiden name, your spouse’s name or a combination of – without a legal name change. I changed my names on passport and DL, but not with banks or with my employer or with any forms I used to identify myself after we married (like the kids’ school.) Interesting note about Canada – in Quebec, you cannot take your spouse’s name upon marriage.
We’ve had so many girl examples and I thought I would share another example. A friend comes from a very catholic background and she named her son John Paul after Pope John Paul. She very much has named her son one name, but I don’t know if the Pope would consider his name 1 or 2. I believe I heard the Pope was working to combine two ideologizes, hence his name.
My son is John Henry. John is his official first name, and then he has two middle names. Henry is the first middle name. When I write his name out on documents that ask for first name/middle initial/last name, I write “John Henry B. LastName.” I see his first name as clearly “John Henry,” so in retrospect, I should have probably put “John Henry” on the birth certificate as his first name, but I did not for other reasons (he’s the fourth generation of “John DifferentMiddles LastName.”)
Hmmm. I don’t know if this is helping.
When I write his initials, I always write “JH.” He (and we) label things as “JH,” never “J.” In fact, on school documents that do label things as J. LastName, it looks all wrong and confusing to me.
Sometimes I call him Johnny, and sometimes his siblings call him Henry. But everywhere else , it’s always “John Henry”
Oh I’m very interested in your point about hyphenated surnames! My kids are hyphenated, and I would always hope they’d be known as First name G-P (mainly because my name is the P, probably!)
Occasionally nursery or school have named artwork or labels with just a G, and I’ve always told them our preference and not had any issues. To me the idea of having both names with the hyphen means they have equal precedence.
So I suppose like most of these things, it comes down to personal preference and habit?
This topic is FASCINATING but so complicated!
I can think of two examples of people whose first names were two names: One was Sara Helen. And you ONLY called her Sara Helen, never Sara. And when she used her initials, it was always both initials of her first name plus her surname initial: SHS Same goes for my other example: Merry Clare, no hyphen, never referred to as Merry. And her initials were MCP. (I have NO IDEA if either of these women also had a middle name, though. Which would be helpful to know.)
I have a space in my last name — it’s something like “le Fleur.” And it’s a big headache, because of SO MANY reasons (some systems/people use the space, others don’t; some systems/people alphabetize it by L, others by F; etc.). But when I write out my initials, I use BOTH initials of the last name: SLF or, if I’m including my middle name, SRLF. So I guess when I think about this question through the lens of my surname, I think: One name, two initials.
But it’s not always like that! So I would agree that one name vs. two comes down to some combo of intent and name-owner usage, and that there’s really no hard and fast rule.
I went from reading this to http://rosesandcellardoors.blogspot.com/2020/09/british-vs-american-part-1-2019.html and had to laugh! All the hyphens!
My husband’s aunt was named Mary Elizabeth Surname and went by Mary until her teen years when she decided to be Mary Beth. She has stayed such and signs things MB, even though her real name would be ME. So confusing!
My MIL’s name is Jo Ann Middlename LastName, with Jo Ann as one name. She only uses the J in her monogram, not the A. She gets a lot of junk mail addressed to Jo Lastname, and that also used to work to screen for telemarketers, because nobody who knows her would call her Jo.
Admittedly I’m not in an area where double names are common, but in my head, double names are always TWO names that are always together. Like eyes. 🤣 There only time I consider two names that are together to be ONE name is when there is no space or capitalization of the second name, like Rosemarie. Rose-Marie, Rose Marie, RoseMarie are two names but inseparable.
I grew up with a hyphen and I was always very adamant that I be Laura M-D (since there were three Lauras in my class). I always write my initials LMD or LEMD if I include my middle name (Elizabeth). As a kid I was very pushy about it (I would not allow anyone to make me Laura M.)
I think of double names like fractions: they consist of 2 names but are 1 whole. That is to say, 1/3 is a number, a single number, with parts that include the digits 1 and 3. The numbers 1 and 3 are different numbers from the number 1/3. Mary Anne is a name, with parts that include the names Mary and Anne. This holds true for Mary Anne, MaryAnne, Mary-Anne, and arguably Marianne though I would not argue with a Marianne who felt differently.