Dear Swistle,
I am a long time reader and fan of your blog(s), and am now calling for you for advice with naming our fourth and final child, a girl, due in three weeks (because what better time than a pandemic to have a baby?). I am going to apologize for the length of this email, but want to give you lots of detailed info. The short version of the dilemma is that I LOVE the names our first three kids have, and cannot settle on a name that 1) I equally love for this last baby and 2) checks all the boxes that I care about.
Here are all of the nitty gritty details: Our last name is S1aughter, my maiden name is Ke11y. I’m of Irish and Jewish descent, and my husband is all WASP. Our older children, in birth order, are Teddy (full name Edward Hain Ke11y S1aughter), Ellie (full name Eloise Ruth S1aughter – and sometimes we call her Ellie Rue), and Pippa (Philippa Hope S1aughter).
The criteria we try to meet are the following:
– Style: obviously, we like names that sound a little like british nobility. But we particularly like that they are all names that are not super duper common but still widely known. And all a little old fashioned.
– Nickname potential: We want the kids to have names that give them options – if they don’t like what we choose to call them, they have other options. So all of them go by nicknames now, but have long-form names they could use as an alternative, or could use middle names, etc. And, in fact, for each of them we settled on the nickname well before we decided what it would be short for – so for example we wavered between Theodore and Edward for Teddy, and Philippa and Penelope for Pippa.
– Working with our last name: Obviously, S1aughter can be tough. Makes it hard to use names that end in “s” sounds (though we broke this rule for Eloise), and rules out any real words as first names (like, if we hadn’t used Hope as a middle name already I would love that except Hope S1aughter feels a little dark…)
– Honoring family: each of the kids have names that honor specific family members; it is also particularly important to me that my heritage and family be reflected in first/middle names since they all have my husband’s last name. So, specifically, my son has an E-name to honor my late uncle Eugene, and in fact largely shares initials with my uncle (my uncle was EHK, Teddy is EHKS). Hain is a family name on my mother’s side and he also has my last name as a second middle name.* Ellie’s names come from her two grandmothers’ middle names: my mom’s middle name is Louise (close to Eloise) and Ruth is my mother in law’s middle name. Pippa is named for my great-aunt Phyllis (the only one of my maternal grandmother’s siblings not to have a niece/nephew named after her) and Hope is a nod to my paternal grandmother Joy (Joy is also my middle name).– For this fourth baby, in addition to the general criteria above, we would love to honor our dads with this name. Our dads are Kevin Vincent (mine) and Howel William (my husband’s). Since none of their names have direct female equivalents (except William) our thought was to use initials, and my husband would really like his dad’s name to be in the first name position. So that means initials of either H___ K___ or W___ V____.
The short list that we have so far is:
-Harriet Katherine, nn Hattie (or Hattie Kate). This is the frontrunner to which I cannot commit. Pros are that it checks all the boxes, with the bonus of extra family connections on my side: Harriet/Hattie was the mother of a very beloved second cousin of mine, and Katherine was my dad’s Irish grandmother (though she was Catherine with a C). Also Harriet has lots of excellent historical and literary references. Cons are that I don’t really LOVE it; it feels less pretty than our other girls names and I worry it sounds too old ladyish. I do love Hattie, but is that too many -ie sound endings among our kiddos?
– Hazel Katherine. Pros are same as the above without any of the benefits of Harriet in terms of familial or historical reference. But maybe I like it more? Cons are no obvious nickname, maybe too trendy, none of the benefits of Harriet.
– Willa Violet. Pros are that I love the names, especially Willa. And Willa is obviously directly linked to William. Family resonance is sort of a wash- there are Williams on both sides of the family, which is good, but there are complicated feelings about some of them. And other than the V-initial, Violet is definitely new on our family trees. Cons are that there is no obvious nickname, plus the limited family references (like, there is nothing remotely Jewish about that name).There aren’t a lot of other H/K/W/V names we are excited about.
My husband seems very happy with Harriet/Hattie, and could live with the other two. The problem is really me, and my inability to just settle on Harriet/Hattie. He also cares substantially less about my “rules” than I do, though does care about honoring family. When we’ve roadtested with friends and family, friends tend to LOVE Harriet/Hattie, though my parents definitely did not like it (though appreciated its efforts to honor their families)
As you often correctly note, no naming rules have to be hard and fast, so maybe we toss them out and just pick other names we love? If we were doing that, our list would include:
– Ada/Addie (Ada was my maternal grandmother)
– Alice
– Anne/Annie
– Beatrice
– Daisy
– Georgia
– June
– Magnolia/Maggie/Maisie/Mae
– RosieI’d love your thoughts. Should I just get over whatever is holding me back on Harriet? Is it in fact a lovely name that I’m just not hearing that way right now but will be adorable on a baby? Or are their other names we should be considering, especially H/K/V/W names? Or ways to meet all our criteria we should think of?
With gratitude,
Pregnant in Quarantine
* We didn’t give the girls two middle names or my surname. Teddy got it in part because of the symmetry with my uncle’s initials and in part because the fourth name felt more sustainable for a boy, by which I mean that when i got married I wanted to share a name with my husband but didn’t want to drop either my middle or my maiden name, so just tacked S1aughter on to the end. But having four names is annoying enough and I didn’t want my daughters to have to grapple with five.
If this were your first daughter, I’d have a couple of paragraphs here on the topic of whether girls should be named differently than boys based on assumptions about their future marriages and future marriage-based name changes. Since this is the third daughter, it seems better to keep going with the same type of name her sisters have (especially since that type of name is the usual first/middle/last), and maybe change the explanation: perhaps it was the FIRSTBORN who got the extra/maiden name, not the boy-who-is-not-a-girl-and-so-would-not-need-to-think-ahead-to-any-name-change-at-marriage.
I will say in general, for others reading this post, that I don’t think girls should be given names that (1) assume they’ll get married, (2) assume they’ll marry men, and (3) assume they’ll change their names at all, let alone in a particular way. And we do future generations a service when we root out the default assumption that men don’t change their names and women do. Oh, look, it turned out I had a couple of paragraphs on the topic anyway. (But they were shorter and less bossy than they would have been!)
On to the rest of the letter.
In some ways, it can get easier to name each additional child: the process gets more familiar, the preferences get refined, the parents work out a good system for making the decision together. Also, the parents have had a chance to see how some of the anxieties of the naming process (“But this name repeats the dog’s initial!”) don’t matter much later on, and how early naming concerns (“But Margaret feels like Too Big a Name for this tiny newborn!”) settle down as the name gets comfortable from familiarity and daily use and perhaps a transitional nickname such as Ms. Pants.
In other ways, the process gets much more challenging, as choosing certain names gradually rules out using more and more of the remaining options. This will vary from parent to parent, but for example perhaps using the name Eva rules out using Evan, Ivan, Eli, Everett, Ezra, Evelyn, Geneva, and Genevieve. Some parents might not want to repeat an initial, or might not want two flower/virtue/month/-en names in the sibling group. Sometimes as the sibling group grows, the naming style feels more cohesive and parents get more reluctant to choose something from a different style category. Or parents run out of favorite names, or run out of honor names, or feel locked in to a particular pattern, or whatever.
In any case, the pool of names to choose from gets smaller and smaller with each named child. And so in general, my feeling is that it is a good idea if possible to get more relaxed and flexible as the sibling group grows: the kind of symmetry and balance that is easily achievable with two children gets increasingly challenging, perhaps even unachievable/undesirable, with four or five. I notice a lot of letters from parents restricting their name choices to the point where they are only allowing themselves to choose from a tiny group of names they don’t even like very much: at some point, the preference for coordinated sibling names (a preference I strongly share, so I am sympathetic) backs them into a corner.
In the very first paragraph, I start to wonder if you are having this exact problem. You love your first three kids’ names, and you can’t find a fourth name that you love AND that checks all your boxes.
Then you go on to give us the list of boxes, which is a pretty reasonable list, though I would still be advising the usual willingness to bend or drop one or more of the preferences.
But THEN you say that in addition to wanting to love the name AND check all those boxes, you ALSO want to name your daughter after two men—and that your husband wants his father’s name first. That is the part where my mouth actually dropped open. It’s too much. It’s too much! Maybe there IS a name that meets all those requirements AND ALSO you’ll love it, but it sounds to me like you have looked very carefully and are very familiar with this process, and you’re not finding it, so we are not likely to find it, either. It isn’t as if there are very many H and W names to go through; we’re not going to find a name you’ve overlooked.
Something has to give. Boy, I’d really like to start by dropping the preference that she be named after both of her grandfathers and in a specific order. That is a really next-level challenge to add to a fourth child’s name on top of everything else. Going to all of this trouble and sacrifice in order to give her a name starting with the same initial as your husband’s father’s middle name seems…not worth it, honor-wise. Could we go back in time and say that the names Hope and Hain already honor your father-in-law by using his initial, and that Ke11y already doubly honors your father by matching his initial AND being his surname? It seems very symmetrical: each grandfather is already represented twice.
At the very least, I think the preference of honoring your husband’s father with the first name should be dropped, and K and V should be added as first-name initial choices. I further think you should add the option of using one grandfather’s middle initial for the first name paired with the other grandfather’s first initial for the middle name, for balance. This takes a set of restrictions that forces you to choose ONLY among H.K. and W.V. names (the jaw drops afresh), and lets it at least be a choice among H.K., W.V., K.H., V.W., V.H., and W.K. names, which is PLENTY DIFFICULT ENOUGH.
Furthermore, some of your other honor names have not been initial-based: Eloise to honor Louise, Hope to honor Joy, a family surname. Is it possible to widen the net even further by allowing similar honors for the two grandfathers? Is there a family surname (their mothers’ maiden names?), or a name that is in some other way similar to the names in question? Eva or Ivy or Evelyn for Kevin? Lavinia or Vina for the -vin- in both Kevin and Vincent? Willemina for William? Ella or any -el/-elle name for Howel? What if you chose a first name you loved, and then used an H-K middle name such as Hazel-Kate? I am not keen on such reaches for honor names, but I also feel like we are trapped in a very tight corner here, and we are not going to lift the preference for honoring the grandfathers, then we should do everything we can to gain even a single inch more wiggle-room.
Well, in the meantime, let’s look at the names on the finalist list. First, I think the name Harriet is great. That doesn’t mean you will/should feel the same about it, but I think it’s fantastic. I mentioned it just the other day in a list of names that gave me a thrilled shock the first time I heard them on a child. Edward (Teddy), Eloise (Ellie), Philippa (Pippa), and Harriet (Hattie) is a very pleasing group, and makes my heart happy to look at it, and I like the way the name Harriet gives some new sounds. I know I’m advising you to drop preferences, but it DOES please me the way it checks all your boxes anyway, and to see all those additional honor-name elements (the 2nd cousin’s mother, the great-grandmother). I like the two groupings: Edward, Eloise, Philippa, Harriet; Teddy, Ellie, Pippa, Hattie. Lovely. Nice work. Don’t choose it only because it meets all the preferences—but if you DO come around to it and love it, I think it’s a great name.
Willa goes the other way: instead of adding new sounds, it repeats them, and that gives a different effect that appeals to me in a different way. Teddy, Ellie, Pippa, Willa—that makes a little satisfying Venn diagram in my mind of repeated sounds/letters/syllables, and of course all those doubled letters. It would displease me a little to be seeing these overlaps between one child’s given name and all the children’s nicknames—except that since Willa wouldn’t have an obvious nickname, I think it actually helps blur that distinction and make it less of an issue: her given name fits with her siblings’ given names AND with their nicknames. It sounds like your main hesitation is with Violet. If you instead go for the balance of one grandfather’s MIDDLE initial as the FIRST name and the other grandfather’s FIRST initial as the MIDDLE name, that opens up K. Does it make anything fall into place if you can use Willa Katherine?
Hazel is nice, and pleasingly similar to in look/letters to Howel. I like the way it pulls in the Z-sound of Eloise after a break for Philippa: Edward, Eloise, Philippa, Hazel. I agree with your assessment that it doesn’t seem as if it adds enough to outrank the pros of using Harriet—but that opinion stands only if you find you continue to only maybe like it more.
And after saying I wasn’t going to find any names you’d overlooked, I’m still going to mention one of my own favorite W names, which I think goes so beautifully in this sibling group, I almost can’t stand to mention it: if I never mention it, you can never tell me you already thought of it and rejected it. Well, here it is: Winifred. I love it so, so much. And look at it with the other names: Edward, Eloise, Philippa, and Winifred; Teddy, Ellie, Pippa, and Winnie. The W. to honor your father-in-law without getting other family Williams involved. And then Katherine as the middle name: if your dad is going to get honored in the middle-name position, it makes sense to balance the honor by using his first initial. Winifred Katherine; Winnie Kate.
I don’t want to mention any downsides to the name, because I want you to choose it—but I found I couldn’t leave them out: I don’t consider either one of them a deal-breaker, but I would still want to have thought of them before using the name, rather than after. The first is that if she wants to use the nickname Freddie, which is one of the things I like about the name Winifred, I wonder if that’s too horror movie with the surname. The second is that Freddie rhymes with Teddy. I don’t care very much about issues with nicknames, and especially when those nicknames can easily be avoided if the issues bother anyone—but, again, I like to have thought of those issues beforehand.
Name update:
Dear Swistle,
I have long owed you an update after your excellent and helpful advice on naming baby number four. I will confess that I am only now getting to it not only because of [gestures around] all that is going on, but also because I was honestly embarrassed by your totally appropriate call-out on different naming plans for boys and girls. I actually agree with everything you said – I do not (1) assume my daughters will get married, (2) assume they’ll marry men, and (3) assume they’ll change their names at all, let alone in a particular way. Nor, for that matter, do I assume my son will get married/to a woman/keep his name. I think I just articulated myself poorly in a failed effort to be concise (plus, I probably let some latent unconscious sexism rise to the surface). I think my real thing is that over time since my son was born and since I’ve been filling out many forms for myself and him and dealing with inconsistent application of middle vs last names, I’ve increasingly found having four names cumbersome. BUT ANYWAY you were right to call me out and I appreciated it.
Now on to this delicious little baby! Your advice was very helpful, both as a sounding board for the names we had on our list and in telling me to stop making it so difficult for myself. Let me first say that I actually LOVE your suggestion of Winifred, and especially Winnie, and it would already have been on my list because it’s great…except that Winnie was the name of a beloved family dog, and therefore felt like we couldn’t use it. But your validation of Harriet helped me see the name through others’ eyes a little better and come to like it more.
And taking your advice, I decided to relax some of my thinking and returned to the family tree to ponder a bit more. And I noticed for the first time that my dad’s parents could provide the solution: his father was named Lew, and his mother’s middle name was Lucille. My aha moment was Lucy! Lucy would honor my dad by honoring his two parents, and bonus that my husband and I both loved the name. I was also willing to let go of naming order (which I made in my letter sound like it was something my husband was pushing, but I don’t really think that was fair to him; he is substantially more flexible on all things and if anything had expressed a weak preference which I turned into a rule and then just cancelled over no protest from him whatsoever).
So we spent some time wrestling between Harriet Lucy and Lucy Harriet, and were genuinely torn! In fact, we went into the hospital and through the birth undecided. But then our sweet baby girl had to spend a stressful 24 hours (away from me, but without my husband leaving her side) in the special care nursery (during a pandemic, which was not directly relevant at all but made everything more stressful). She is absolutely fine, but at the time it felt very scary. She was unnamed when they took her away, but I quickly decided that Harriet Lucy felt more like the name of a tough little fighter (I don’t pretend this is rational – I was on a lot of drugs and very emotional). And it was settled!
The name seems to fit her quite well. We mostly call her Hattie, (or Hattie Lou, which is a nice little mirror of her oldest sister whom we call Ellie Rue sometimes). But she already seems like a sweet and sassy little Harriet too.
Here is Hattie at three months, spiky hair and all. Thanks again for your help!
Adelaide or Adeline Ke11y, nn Addie.
It fits well with your other kids names, has other nickname options like your other kids, and using Ke11y will honour your father without restricting you to a name you don’t love just to fit initials.
I know you already used it for your son, but I like the way it bookends the sibling set.
Suggestion: Could you add some symmetry to your naming system by giving your daughter a first name you like and then using your dads’ initials for TWO middle names? Say, “Willa Hazel Violet Sl@ughter”? Full disclosure: I’m a woman with two given middle names, did not change my name at marriage, and suspect/DEEPLY hope that our daughters’ contemporaries won’t be defaulting to changing their names anymore. You could help bring about that world by being one more person to buck the (dying) tradition!!
Anyway. I know a few people who have used Harriet/Hattie, and what strikes me is that they have all been naturally GAGA over the name. It feels like a “passion name” to me, one that people use because they’re in love with it. For me, it evokes a fusty image–an older woman primly inserting hairpins into a very carefully shaped bun. Harriet Tubman dilutes this image some (and is a wonderful namesake), but the name itself is so specifically evocative that I wouldn’t want to use it as a default, just because it was on my list, without really loving it. However, it does fall right into line with the other kids’ names.
From your list, I love Beatrice most.
If this wasn’t clear, I think a “passion name” is different from, for example, a name that is very trendy and that parents might use comfortably because it blends in with others and will be very wearable for the child, not out of extremely strong feelings for the name itself.
Oh I totally feel you on the initial thing! My husband is half Italian, half Jewish (for what it’s worth I’m neither). And honour initials are a really big thing in his family, both he and his brother have first and middle initials that honour (dead) family members. He wanted to do the same with our kids: kid one, no problem, she’s Margot after his grandfather Michael. And her middle name is Josephine after Jo March because hello! I carried her in my body and I wanted it ;)
But for baby number two we found it almost impossible. Neither of us actually had that many people we wanted to honour (small families, late in life kids for the last few generations, so not that many relatives we knew and cared for enough who aren’t around anymore). We tried an A, B, C or F initial and I just couldn’t for the life of me find a boy name that gave me butterflies. So eventually we gave up on the honour initial for his first name but found a Hebrew name to honour that side of his heritage. He’s Nathaniel Frank, with the Frank after my grandad and lots of Francescos on my husband’s side, and I’ve got no regrets. Plus it turns out my FIL’s great-grandfather was Nathaniel so he was thrilled.
Gosh that was long. But I think unless you’re fiercely honour naming, loving the name trumps everything. You have to say it every day for the rest of your life!
The name that came to mind when looking at Howel and Kevin was Holland – nickname Hollie/Holly. Less British, more European/trendy though. Hollis – has more of that traditional feel. But not sure I care for any of the versions with the last name but still had to throw it out there!
I like the Winifred/Winnie Kate suggestion!
I agree with getting rid of at least some of the rules in favor of a name you love.
Lastly I also do like Harriet – other names that remind me of Harriet – Henrietta and Matilda.
I immediately thought of Winifred as well. Another option is Wilhelmina with Willa as her nickname.
Perhaps you have already rejected this name but I think with all of your constraints and boxes to tick off, I would go with Hermione Kate. It is a good strong name with positive associations and has that British flair. As for a nickname, I might go with Hemmie though I think you could also use Emmie, Minny, or Mina.
Hazel was the first name I thought of and I think out fits really well. Hattie (Harriet or Henrietta) is lovely too. I love both Willa and Winifred too. Really, I don’t think any of these is any better than the others. The only thing I can think to suggest would be to consider Viola instead of Violet—she’s my favorite Shakespearean character (though Katherine is a close second). As someone who is 8 weeks from delivery of our third, I completely feel you on the waffling and indecision around a list of great names that fit criteria. I, too, want something to click. I want to get it right. I want a fairy godparent to make the decision so it doesn’t torment me. I hope you wake up one morning and one name leaves your lips and you feel settled. Or stumble across a minor tweak or additional significance that suddenly makes a combo sing.
For what it’s worth, my daughter’s middle name is Violet in honor of her 100% Jewish great-grandmother Violet (who was born in Iraq in the 30s and raised between there and Israel). I know Violet doesn’t have Jewish roots but it’s also not NOT Jewish if that makes sense.
I just want to say that if you do go away from your boxes, I LOVE Ada/Addie and that it’s still an honor name for your family.
Also, we have a Violet and use the nicknames Vi and V and you could also use Lettie.
It sounds to me like you really want Willa Violet. I think you should name her Willemena nn Willa. Gives you the initials you want and a name with a nickname in the style you like. That’s my vote!
Also, just as an encouragement, I gave birth to Violet at the very beginning of the coronavirus and the quarantine and it was still a beautiful experience, even without visitors.
I love your name taste! I also have an Edward nn Teddy, and an Albert nn Bert.
Harriet nn Hattie fits beautifully in with your other children in theory, but the theory is less important than how you actually feel about the name. I would drop the honour initials constraint if at all possible–it seems like it’s a nice idea but proving to be much more of a stumbling block than it’s worth.
Names that I liked that you might also like, as we seem to have similar taste:
– Beatrice (I know this is on your list already and it’s so great with your other children’s names! You could call her Bee! Teddy, Ellie, Pippa and Bee!)
– Helen (nn Nell?)
– Margaret (this was our top pick for an afab baby and has so many great nickname options! Greta! Madga! Daisy!)
– Barbara (I know this is a bit of a Marmite name but I personally love it and think Barbara S!aughter is FAB. Not a ton of nickname options though. Babs? Barb S!aughter is possibly a touch too aggro)
– Josephine (nn Jo or Jojo or Josie. Teddy, Ellie, Pippa and Jojo!)
– Susan (Sukey S!aughter is the heroine of a book I would want to read)
– Rosamund (nn Roz, Rosie, Rose, Rosa)
Happy naming! Please update us and let us know what you decide :)
Have you heard of Waverly? It might not have an obvious nickname, but I bet one would develop naturally. Also, Willow might be more satisfactory than Willa, though it is less traditional. Hmmmm. W names are hard. I wonder if you’ve considered Helena, nickname Lena/Lana or Hallie?
I also love Katherine or Kate for the K name middle.
For V names, that’s tricky! Have you thought about Vivian? Helena Vivian is gorgeous!
I thought about Karina Vivienne when I saw K/V initials nn Kara.
Also, saw the suggestion of Josephine nn Jo, and think it works so well with the siblings names, even if it doesn’t checks all the boxes.
Unless using initials to honor a family member is an established tradition in either of your families, I would give up on that requirement. It seems like it’s making the search too hard for too tenuous a connection. I wouldn’t feel particularly honored if my daughter named her daughter an A name after me, especially if I knew the name she picked is one she didn’t care for.
With that said, I think that your short list of Harriet, Hazel, and Willa are great names and fit with the sibset. Harriet fell off the charts after 1970 but it is poised for a comeback, since it had good popularity 1900-1944. I think the nn Hattie especially gives it some spunky Southern charm. Hazel disappeared in 1975 but has been having a rapid comeback since 1998. Willa has a similar trajectory.
As swistle has said before, our parents often have a skewed perspective on baby names since they’re one generation off.
I agree that your restrictions are too restrictive! I’d loosen up on either the idea that this baby must be named after both grandfathers, or the idea that you must you both first names or both middle names. To be honest, I’m not sure I understand the both middle or both first initial requirement. Is it to make things more fair? Because really, it’s already an unequal honor since one of the honor names is already in the middle position-so any possible combination should work just fine.
I am not a fan of picking names by meaning, but it is one method for keeping your current requirements and still naming in honor of the grandfathers without being stuck with the initial issue. A quick search on Behind the Name tells me that Kevin comes from elements meaning handsome, kind & gentle. Another behind the name search (based on meanings) tells me that Adelaide has some element or connection to “kind” (I didn’t read the entry for Adelaide so grain of salt & all that). Vincent has an element meaning “to conquer.” Behind the name didn’t list any girl’s names that seem to fit your style with a “conquer” element, but when I bring in synonyms, Victoria seems to be an obvious choice (bonus for starting with a V).
My family is big on namesakes that don’t use the exact same name-and we often have namesakes be similar in sound. So something like Evelyn for Kevin. My family would also consider something like ELLen for HowELL (though Ellen is probably out due to Elloise/Ellie). The idea being maybe thinking a bit outside the box instead of strictly following the rule for specific initial combinations might help.
My thoughts on your current list are that Harriet is lovely (I quite like it). It’s not too old ladyish to my ear-and I do like the benefit of multiple points of connection for each family. But the bottom line it, you don’t really seem to like it. Quit trying to convince yourself to use a name you don’t really like just because it checks all the boxes. The number one preference for any name is that the parents should like it.
You seem to like Hazel better. Sure, it checks fewer boxes-but you like it better and I think that means something. I also quite like it and find it pleasing with the sibling group. And why not be a little creative with the nickname? What’s wrong with Zee or maybe something to do with her personality or appearance or whatever. Or she can just not have a nickname. One of my kids has a built in nickname and the other doesn’t. It has been a problem exactly zero times.
Willa is lovely. And you also seem to just like it better than Harriet. My biggest hesitation would be the complicated family feelings. Only you can decide if the complications are worth giving up the name. Are the people involved distant enough that you can just ignore it? Pass the story that Willa is for the positive William and if anyone brings up a negative William just act a bit surprised like you hadn’t considered it? Willa could be a nickname for Wilhelmina but I suspect that will sound downright clunky if you find Harriet too old ladyish.
I do agree your rules are a bit constructive. And your last name does complicate things. I mean Helena is a great H name but I’m not sure how the Hell part goes with your last name. To my ear it becomes a bit like Hell-in-a S1aughter. And Winnie S1aughter sounds like Piglet lost it one day. But if you are willing to bend a few rules like initial sequence, as Swistle suggests, I think you have good options.
I really like Victoria Hazel. Nn Tory. Thats a V and a H initial, one for either granddad, and it checks the British aristocracy box. Edward, Eloise, Phillipa and Victoria. Teddy, Ellie, Pippa and Tory. (Although Victoria S1aughter may also rub you wrong? I don’t mind that as much for some reason.)
Hazel could beget a nn of Zelia. I like that it would give another nn ending in “a” to match Pippa. The other nns seem to end in ie like Teddy and Ellie.
Oh and like someone else said Viola could work too. Nn Lola for that A ending. Viola Harriett. Edward, Eloise, Phillipa, and Viola. Teddy, Ellie, Pippa and Lola.
I also like the idea of just having your own first name and a double middle for the last babe. Adeline (“Ada”) Harriett Katherine seems perfect. If she does change her last name later in life she can choose whether to keep both middles and her maiden name then. I know a few women move their maiden name to the middle slot and cut their middles altogether. Point being, at that time it is her choice and not 100% clear what she may choose.
Best of luck!
Piglet lost it one day!! 😂 Good catch on that one!
Funny, Harriet strikes my ear as very feminine, far more than Hazel. And I love the nicknames Teddy, Ellie, Pippa, and Hattie together. Pippa breaks up the -ie names nicely, but regardless of that I don’t think they’re too much. The variation in consonants makes them sound pleasing: -dee, -lee, -tee is totally different than, say, siblings Billie, Ellie and Millie.
Love Willa as well! It’s strong enough to be a formal name (Judge Willa S1aughter) but sweet and light enough to fit in with the others’ nicknames. Not many nickname choices, but Will is lovely on a little girl, and the middle can furnish nicknames too :)
What about Wilhelmina, nn Willa?
Windsor gets you to Winnie with a British vibe, without the Freddie issues! I know it doesn’t have the longest history as a first name, but I think it could work!
How about Willa Vivian, with the Hebrew name Aviva? Though you didn’t mention Hebrew names, so you may not be doing that. But Vivian could be a nod to Aviva, since your qualm about Willa Violet was the name having nothing Jewish about it.
Or Willa Aviva, with the v’s being for Vincent, and the A name for your maternal grandmother?
But also, I’m fully in agreement that you have given yourself a lot of restrictions and you should feel free to drop some to find a name that makes you happier.
You don’t sound happy with Harriet, so even though I think it’s a great name, I think you’re better off not using it (unless when she’s born you look at her and think “Harriet!”.
Hazel is a delightful name and doesn’t need a nickname (or one may evolve, maybe Zelle).
And if you like Aviva, it’s a nice way to honor Ada and get some Jewish flavor.
I say you name her Anne. It sounds like you genuinely enjoy all the little connections between your older children’s names and the people around you, and naming a little girl Anne will guarantee a non-stop flow of people who smile and say “my middle name is Anne” or “my mother’s name is Anne” or some variation thereof. There’s also pretty impossible to get any more British royal family than Anne, and the A initial will connect to your maternal grandmother.
To make Swistle happy I’ll say Anne Winifred, although I think Anne Hazel might also be nice.
I agree, Anne is a great match with your childrens’ names. It softens your surname in a very pleasing way. Anne S1aughter, ‘Annie’ S1aughter.
From the no-rules list, I’m also a big supporter of Beatrice and Alice. Both end in ‘s’ but you know by experience with Eloise that it’s not an issue. All it means is pausing briefly between the first name and surname, and that’s instinctive for most people. Nicknames for Beatrice; Bea, Bee, Tris, Trixie, Betty, Betsy, Bess. Nicknames for Alice; Al, Allie, Lissy, Lissa.
Back to your main list, you could instead think of Hazel as a stylish name which has universal appeal, as opposed to a trendy name that a certain group of parents are naming their daughters. For instance, I wouldn’t think people who choose the name Hazel are necessarily part of the ‘hipster’ camp. Since vintage names are coming back, Hazel will most definitely fit in with the names of her peers.
Nicknames could be; Zella (although shares a few sounds with Ellie), Hazy (might be one of those nicknames don’t sound ideal in theory, but actually DO work on the person), and lastly Aza pronounced ‘AY-zah.’ This would be my favourite for you. Teddy, Ellie, Pippa and Aza.
How about Wilhelmina Kelly nn Willa?
I feel like Kelly is great for honoring your dad as it’s his surname and shares an initial with his first name + works as a girl name.
Edward, Eloise, Phillipa + Wilhelmina… Teddy, Ellie, Pippa & Willa
I also really like Harriet with your set too!
Or Helena Verity? nickname Lena!
Henrietta, Henrietta with the nickname Hattie! As others have suggested. But I read the whole letter wanting to say it so now I am :)
Violetta with the nickname Violet or Lettie or Etta?
I also love the Matilda nn Mattie or Tilly that was noted :)
And I’m on team Wilhelmina/Willemina nn Willa if the family associations don’t turn out to be a firm no.
What about Penelope nn Nella or Penny? I like the symmetry of that as well (E, E, P, P). Or Paulina! Or Posey from Josephine!
Okay I’ll stop now haha.
Have you considered Hester? She means ‘star’ and is a lovely character from the Anne of Green Gables series.
Hester with the nickname Hattie? Or Hettie?
Edward, Eloise, Phillipa, and Hester.
Perhaps Hester Katherine?
There’s also Honora… nickname Nora.
Edward, Eloise, Phillipa, and Honora.
Honora Kathleen (you said you were Irish, right?)
Wilfrieda might suit. Her nickname could be Willa or Frieda or Freddie.
Edward, Eloise, Phillipa and Wilfrieda
Wilfrieda Vivian sound right?
When I first read your letter, I was thinking, “Beatrice! Beatrice! Use Beatrice!!” I mean, she’s got a stellar meaning, is SO British (Shakespeare!!), and gives the darling nickname of Bea.
Whatever you pick, it’s going to be right. You two have got this! But please let us know what you decide. Pretty please.
Congrats and best wishes!
Hannah! Nickname could be Hannie, but I’ve definitely known of Hattie as a nn for Hannah.
And this doesn’t solve any of your parameters but I have a new niece named Francesca and I love her name so much I want to shout it from the rooftops. My toddler calls her Chessa which pleases me to no end and I love it even more than the spunky nn Frankie I was initially rooting for.
Yes! This was the first name that came to mind for me too! Hannah Kate? Hannah Kelly (re using a name, but it might not matter since it’s a maiden name). Hannah Katherine.
I love the name Hadley — nicknames could be Haddie, Hattie, or Addie/Addy.
Hadley Kathleen, Hadley Katherine, Hadley Victoria
I also like Harriet, Henrietta, Winifred, Wilhelmina (Mina), Vivian (Vivi), Vanessa (Nessa).
I especially like Katherine with the nn Kate — a one syllable nn sounds good following the 2-syllable nns of Teddy, Ellie, and Pippa, and I love pairing of Katherine (Kate) Hadley!
Abandoning the KVHW options, I think Magnolia (Nola) Claire is a gorgeous name.
I agree with Swistle that you are working with a lot of requirements and it’s okay if something has to give.
That said, I really like Harriet Katherine, if as Swistle says, it starts to grow on you. Hazel is great, too, and I wouldn’t say it doesn’t have plusses, if you like it better. That’s a big plus.
As for Willa not having nicknames, for Willa Cather (the most famous Willa, I think) it was a nickname. Her given name was Wilella. If that strikes your fancy Wilella could be the name and Willa could be the nickname. Or maybe Willow with Willa as a nickname, though I’m not sure it fits your style (I am having an internal debate about that).
Harriet is awesome! But to paraphrase Bonnie Raitt, I can’t make you love Harriet if you don’t. I can’t make your heart feel something it won’t.
Suggestions using H.K., W.V., K.H., V.W., V.H., and W.K:
– Katherine Howell nicknamed Kitty or Kit (FIL’s in the middle, but it’s his actual name! Like you did with Eloise Ruth): Teddy, Ellie, Pippa and Kit. I like how Kit gives you a one-syllable name, like punctuation at the end of the set. Kit!
– Vivian Winifred: Teddy, Ellie, Pippa and Vivi
– Virginia Holly: Teddy, Ellie, Pippa and Ginny
– Victoria Wren: Teddy, Ellie, Pippa and Rory
– Willa Kathleen: Teddy, Ellie, Pippa and Billie (But Ellie and Billie might be hard?? This is very very unlikely to be a problem for your child, but I’m the youngest of four, my siblings all have formal names with nicknames, I have a name that doesn’t shorten and always felt a bit left out. This is a Name Nerd Concern, not a normal kid concern.)
Thoughts:
– Throw out the rulebook, see what you love best.
– I understand you’re trying to be fair since your mother’s name came first, but you used a name INSPIRED by hers for the first and your MIL’s ACTUAL name for the middle, so it’s even-steven. FIL doesn’t need to go first.
– Also, just because you did both-middles before doesn’t mean you need to again!
– Honoring your dads through ways other than the initial might open the field
– You have used both grandpa’s surnames in the kids’ names so if you want to branch out further into the family tree, I think that would be fine.
Also, I just love your style. A ton. I hope you come back and let us know what your baby’s name is.
Harriet/Hattie works great. Don’t overthink it!
Anne-Marie Sl@ughter is a well known writer, if that makes a difference to you.
How about Mary? Also love Josephine! (Posey, Jo, Josie)
Lucinda? Margaret?
I love your kids’s names!
Oh Swistle, your responses make my heart sing! Can we please shout this from the rooftops: “I don’t think girls should be given names that (1) assume they’ll get married, (2) assume they’ll marry men, and (3) assume they’ll change their names at all, let alone in a particular way. And we do future generations a service when we root out the default assumption that men don’t change their names and women do.” YESSSS!!!
Also, I was thinking of Winnie as soon as I read this letter! So cute, starts with W, full name could be Winifred, or maybe Arwen or Rowena?
Hattie is cute too, or maybe Haddie (Hadley)? Love Pippa, Ellie, and Teddy though!
I have been trying to figure out how to write a concise response to you, but there is so much I want to contribute to this. So, I apologise for the length of this comment, but the short version is that I think you should name your daughter Harriet Katherine.
Before I begin to tell you why, you need to know that my eldest daughter is named Harriet. She is 14 and it was adorable on her as a baby and as a toddler, but has definitely continued to carry well into high school. As an aside, we were at the beach over the Christmas holidays (we live in Australia) and I heard a mother calling out to her daughter Harriet, interchanging between Harriet and Hattie. It was lovely to see it afresh on a small child playing at the beach alongside my teenage daughter out in the surf. But I have always loved the name, so we are coming at it from a different angle.
As others have said, I can’t make you love something that you don’t. But I do think the overall significance of the names would be hard to pass up. I have three boys and have always found boys names terribly hard to like. As a result, all three of my boys ended up with names with deep family significance. Sometimes when I think of my boys’ names I can hardly believe that I chose them at all. I can’t imagine picking them off a long list and saying any of them are “the one”. But I do love them, and all that they represent, and am so happy and satisfied that we chose the names we did.
The way you speak of your choices for your other children seems similar. You are so pleased with how they have come together and honoured the special people in your lives. You seem to get a thrill out of explaining your choices and who they honour and how. They are beautiful names made more beautiful by what they represent. And you can have that with your next daughter’s name as well. But it is also hard to get over your misgivings that this particular choice is not as pretty as your other girls’ names. I asked my Harriet about this and we concurred that Harriet isn’t a particularly “pretty” name, but it is “beautiful”. Less light, but no less lovely .
And I wouldn’t worry at all about adding another name ending in “ie” because all the full names have very pleasingly different endings, and you can also get around it by calling them Ellie Rue & Hattie Kate. Actually, I wonder when you said you chose the other children’s nicknames first, how you felt at the time about the full names. Did you love Theodore & Edward equally and choose the family significance of an ‘E’ initial as a tiebreaker? Did you love both Philippa & Penelope, and how did you choose between them? You say you love the nicknames Hattie & Hattie Kate – can you start again this time with loving the nickname and working backwards?
As you said yourself, Harriet Katherine ticks all your boxes – style (everything you said under this heading is why my daughter loves her name), nickname potential, working with your last name, honouring family– as well as the added bonus of using the significant initials in the order you prefer, and then adding extra family significance and historical and literary references. And you love the nicknames Hattie & Hattie Kate. And your husband really likes the whole package.
Have I said enough? I did ask my daughter what she would say to someone contemplating the name Harriet for their daughter. Without hesitation she said, “They should just do it.” I hope you do :)
Loved another commenters suggestion of Hadley Katherine!!!! nn Hattie/Haddie
Some suggestions abandoning your rules:
Alexandra nn Andie
Gillian nn Gilly
Margaret nn Meg, Margot, Maisy
Clementine nn Cleo
Cordelia nn Cordie, Delia, Corie
Genevieve nn Gen, Evie, Vivi
Georgiana nn Gigi, Georgie, Georgia
Final suggestion for you: Imogen, nn Gen, Immie
Well THAT is one of the cutest baby pictures I’ve seen in a long time. And Hattie Lou is a perfect name.
Oh what a lovely update! The original letter and update are in my top favorite Swistle name letters.
What a cutie and Hattie Lou is adorable!
Harriet Lucy is a beautiful name and Hattie Lou is a terrific nickname – spunky and fun.
And what a scrumptious baby picture!!
A) Hattie Lou is a perfect name and Harriet Lucy S. is stunning by itself and with the siblings. Way to knock it out of the park.
B) I 100% get what you mean about husbands/preferences/sexism/hassles/ohgodthosworld.
C) Holy MACKEREL she is cute.