Hi. Quick question sorry itS probably an old one but I cannot wrap my head around it! So I’m Luigi Giuseppe II, dad is Peter, great grandfather was Sr. And his son, my grandfather, was Jr. As I understand it my parents originally named me III then back peddled at my grandmothers’ insistence, and pulled one “stick” back and named me Luigi Giuseppe II, because a generation had been skipped. Now both Sr. And Jr. have passed, I’m now having a son (after having 3 amazing daughters!!) and I want to get the name right! At first I thought he would be Luigi Giuseppe III but that doesn’t seem right since he would actually be the IV with the name (my great grandfather, grandfather, myself, and himself) Was I named wrong? If so I’ll go through the necessary changes to be III and name my son IV??? Any and all help appreciated!! Baby due In May, very excited but want to be definitive about name before we tell friends and family! Thanks!!
Numerical suffixes are a botched and botchy system, and people have been botching them for so long that at this point it’s tempting to throw up one’s hands and say “DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, WHO CARES.” Except I do NOT throw up my hands, because I do in fact care.
Your parents were in a tricky situation with your name. It’s true that “II” is used when the baby is named the exact same complete name as anyone NOT its parent. (It has nothing to do with skipping a generation: the distinction is parent vs. non-parent.) But in this case, the person whose exact same complete name they gave you was someone who was already a Jr.! And that’s a little tricky! Because after the very specific Sr./Jr. situation, in which we use those terms ONLY in a parent/child relationship, everything is all numbers EITHER WAY: no more parent/child requirement! So let’s say you had been named for your uncle who was not a Jr., and you were correctly suffixed as II; and then your brother named his baby after you: your nephew could correctly be suffixed III. Because once we get into the numbers, no one cares the way they do about Sr./Jr.
So. On one hand, we could say that your parents “should have” named you Luigi Giuseppe III, because you were named for a Jr., and so you were the third member of your family line with that name. They certainly would have been correct to do so, and your grandmother was incorrect that skipping a generation made a difference. (She was probably thinking of the rule that you can’t skip a generation between a Sr. and a Jr.) And then your son would have been Luigi Giuseppe IV.
However. Your parents did not name you Luigi Giuseppe III. They named you Luigi Giuseppe II. Correct or less-correct (using II in your case was not incorrect, just less typical), that is the name you have lived with your entire life, including through the birth of three daughters. I suppose you could change your name at this point in order to change your son’s suffix, but is that something important/valuable to do? My understanding is that most people with numerical suffixes feel very possessive about them, especially if I mention that Miss Manners says that anyone who is not a pope or a king should be shifting their suffixes as earlier holders of the name die off (that is, you would now be Sr., and your son would be a Jr.); or if I mention that in the United States, the Social Security Administration does not consider suffixes part of the legal name. Every time I do a post about suffixes, I have to delete a steady trickle of comments (continuing to come in even YEARS AND YEARS later) from men ranting at me about how important their suffixes are, and how proud they are of them, and how absolutely vital to their identities the suffixes are. Sometimes the same man will comment again and again, flailing wildly like a bird against a window in his desperation to explain to me that he IS his suffix. So it surprises me a little to hear you being willing to change yours at this stage of life, in order to make your son’s suffix bigger.
You are allowed to change your name if you want to, and you are allowed to call your son Luigi Giuseppe IV without having to prove to anyone that the suffix is correct. But it feels wrong to me. Changing your name just because you’re now having a son feels Off in a way I’m having trouble putting a finger on. My own opinion is that the best solution is to keep the name you’ve had all your life, and name your son Luigi Giuseppe III. (Assuming the child’s other parent is completely and enthusiastically on board with the idea of continuing this tradition from your side of the family.)
Agree strongly, the numeric order is water under the bridge at this point. All you can and should do is go forward with what you’ve got. It’s too confusing to do revisionist history on the family tree now.
I don’t feel strongly about Swistle’s answer but I DO feel strongly about sharing with the internet that the entire time I read her answer, a bird was flying repeatedly into the window immediately next to me, wild and flailing.
It’s impossible to escape from!! Oh, 2019.
I think it’s cool that you are willing to “right the record”.
As someone who has been through a legal name change (aside from a marital name change), it is a hassle to submit your proof of legal name change decree anytime you must present a birth certificate. BUT, as Swistle mentioned, since the US government doesn’t recognize suffixes, maybe it’s not a big deal that you change your particular suffix. After all, they don’t know if you had a cousin born after you with your exact name! Your son would be the IV that way, too!
I’d say give your boy his rightful title of 4th, and let your title be the family head-scratcher… or embrace your change!
Congrats on all your wonderful children! Best wishes!
I think you’re the 3rd one. Your son will be the forth one. I see why they called you II but to me II=Jr.
I support changing yourself to III & giving son IV. It will make him feel the true significance of being the fourth one bearing the name & also save him from writing Swistle this exact letter in 30 years. I say fix the counting glitch now.
So. You were born as III right? What does your birth certificate say? Is there any reason anyone would care if you revert to your original birth certificate?
I don’t just don’t know if switching the number legally back to III matters inorder to call your little one IV. You were originally called III, and your little guy is IV. Makes sense to me. And the only people to argue against are family. Even the government doesn’t care what number you have. So, change if you want, but feel free to name your kid however you want.
Heck. No one yells when someone calls their first kid Quentin or second daughter Octavia. You could name your kid IV and no one can prevent you. So. You have all the authority on this matter that you need. He is the fourth in your family, give him the IV if you want. And if you have the stomach for the paperwork and hassel of the extra documentation of doing another name change, more power too you.
Is there something “Off” about changing his name because it seems to signify importance that he didn’t give to his daughters? I think at this point in time, it’s not the same tradition that it once was (ie: conveying oldest son, inheriter of the keys to the castle, etc) so it doesn’t seem to hold the same power to me. It just doesn’t seem to be the same patriarchal signifier of position and importance.
I think it’s natural to rethink the numbers now that there is an actual person who may be using the name. I love the tradition and connection of using a family name (as long as everyone is on board!). It gives me such joy that my son is named after my grandfather. So, I would vote that you go with 3rd for you and 4th for your son. And if your family line is lucky enough to have a 5th, 6th, etc. then all the better and literally no one else outside of the family will care, but he will have that connection to the family coming before him.
Does the new baby “need” to have a number in his name? Here in New Zealand it’s very uncommon to have a suffix number even if the name is identical to the parent or grandparent, occasionally “junior” is used but I think that is more often than not just a nickname.
My son is the 4th generation “James William” – he is known within the family as, Little James, his dad is Big James, great uncle is Father James (a priest) and great grandfather is Grandad James.
I think any number you choose will feel weird.
What about naming your son Luigi Giuseppe Junior and start using Luigi Giuseppe Senior for yourself? If suffixes don’t count as a legal part of your name, and you are the oldest Luigi Giuseppe alive, why not owning it?
It’s not unheard of for royalty to have an off number after their names. Look at England’s Edwards. Edward I is after Edward the Confessor. France’s king after Napoleon gave himself one more number after his never-crowned young nephew who survived his father but died a child. Louis all, I think, but can’t remember their numbers.
If it were me, I’d give young Luigi III, since you’re II. But that’s my preference, and of course you and your partner should go with what makes >you< happy