Hello!
What do you do when you and your husband can’t agree on a baby boy name? I’m currently due with our second child in a month, and don’t know the sex of the baby. We can agree on girl names fairly easily, but for a boy name, he wants the boy named after him.Mind you there is no tradition in his family of this, so it’s not like it’s a family tradition. He just really wants his son to be named after him. I have issues around that, one that it’s sexist to baby girls, completely egotistical and a bit chauvinist. As if boys are better than girls so they have to “carry on” this family name. But the worst of it all is that I really don’t like my husband’s name for my own child. It’s not a name I would choose at all!
What do we do?!?!
Here is what you do when one parent strongly wants to use a name and the other parent strongly doesn’t: you don’t use the name. The name is taken out of consideration.
First, I hope, the parent who doesn’t want the name tries very hard to want it because the other parent feels so strongly about it: serious time and effort should be spent on this. But if that doesn’t work (as it has not in this case), the parent who wants the name has to come to the realization that the strength of their desire doesn’t mean they get what they want. It is hard. It really is. I have a lot of sympathy for a parent whose favorite, favorite name is not going to happen.
If it helps, he can know that he is in good company, not only with other parents whose baby-naming partners didn’t like The Name, but with parents whose favorite name is impossible with the surname, or impossible with a sibling name, or where there is a severe family reason not to use the name (it’s the name of dad’s new wife and no one can stand her; it’s the name of ex-wife’s child with new husband; the name we’ve loved since childhood is coincidentally the name of our detested sister-in-law; etc.), or where someone else used the name first and now the parents feel they can’t use it without causing extreme interpersonal issues, or where someone horrible with that name has just come into the news, or where royalty/celebrity just used it. There are so many reasons why a beloved name has to be taken off the table, and so many of us have to cope with that reality and then find our favorite names from all the names that remain. Some of us always pine a little for those lost names, but there it is.
In this case, there are so many reasons you don’t want to use this name, it’s clear the name should be out (and possibly long-since out; how long have you two been arguing about this?). The fact that you’re still asking me what should be done, and presenting this as an issue of the two of you not agreeing on a name when it’s actually an issue of him wanting a name you don’t want and apparently continuing to insist on it, makes me feel a little worried. I wonder if you’re feeling pressure because what he wants is his own name? Like, if he wanted any other name, and REALLY REALLY WANTED it, and you REALLY REALLY DIDN’T, would you be struggling in this same way to say “I’m sorry, but no”? Do a few test runs of this in your head: pick a name you strongly don’t want to us for a number of reasons (name of ex-boyfriend, name of real jerk you know, name you just hate the sound of, name someone else in your family/friend group recently used, name of someone terrible in the news) and imagine your husband really pushing for that name. Is the trouble that you don’t want to say no to a name he really wants, or is the trouble that you don’t want to say no to a namesake? Society/custom can exert a surprisingly amount of pressure.
Or is the issue not with you saying no but with him accepting that no? Is wanting to pass down his own name something he feels he ought to be able to have as a man in this society, and so instead of backing off as he would if you rejected another of his favorites, he is persisting on principle? My high school boyfriend felt it was his Right to have a son named after him. Like, that that wish was enough to override any future partner’s wishes. We had a number of fights about it, and in the midst of the later excruciating pain of the break-up, one bright light was realizing I would not have to deal with that issue with him. (The way he and his eventual wife solved it was by making the child a namesake, but never ever ever using that name except on paperwork, and calling the child by the wife’s first-choice name.)
At this point, you have two tasks and your husband has two tasks. Your first task is to make it clear to your husband that his favorite name is not going to be the child’s name. I don’t know how clear you have already been, so I don’t know if what’s needed here is a gentle, sorrowful, “I’m sorry, honey; I’ve really tried to like that idea because I know how important it is to you, but I’m afraid I’m just not willing” or if there has to be some shouting and table-flipping to get your point fully across, but the communication needs to happen in a way that lets him know you feel sad for him but the decision is final. Your husband’s first task is to accept this, and to let go of the idea of using his own name.
The second task for both of you is to find the name you both like best out of the names that remain. To be clear, the task is NOT for either of you to find him a name he likes as much as the idea of using his own name. The task is for the two of you to look at all the names that are not his name, and find the highest-ranked one that the two of you agree on.
I really like the idea of working with the remaining list of names, together.
Swistle is 100% spot-on, as usual. The name is off the table and your husband has to come to grips with that. It is fair and equitable to work with a list that you prepare together and arrive at a name together. I greatly hope he is able to see the reasonableness of this.
If the baby is going to have your husband’s last name, it may be worth pointing that out. His name already is being “carried on” in that respect. This is an especially powerful argument if you also took his surname in any way. The whole family bears his surname. You therefore get to have equal — if not MORE — say in the given names of the children.
When I was pregnant and my family discussing names (just generally, no pushing to get us to disclose our lists) my brother said “if one parent vetoes it it’s off the table”. And he’s right. That’s not to say it’s not sad or hard to hear a veto. But the child belongs to both parents. And you both will be saying it for decades to come. You have to agree to a name not be beaten into submitting to one.
I’m sad that I’ll never have a William, a Louise or a John. But my husband isn’t on board so it’s not going to ever happen. And, to be fair to him, our son got the first and middle and nickname that I wanted. So I gave up the fight about the surname. 🤷🏼♀️
Did you have this same argument over the naming of your first child?
Whatever you do, do NOT give in and name this child his name if it’s not your preference. It’s okay to feel sad for him that his favorite name is not going to be The Name, but no reason to let his tantrum override your feelings. It is OKAY that you do not want this name. It is going to be your child’s name for the rest of their life…you don’t want to be cringing every single time you see it.
So if the primary objection is the history of how men’s names often get passed down and women’s often don’t, then I get why the middle name spot wouldn’t help. But if the primary objection is dislike of the name itself, middle is a great place for that as a compromise, assuming the mother gets much more say than he does in the first name.
Or what about husband’s middle name in the middle name spot? Middle and last would be the same, but still a bit less obvious on the namesake theme.
It’s interesting to me how often name advice is really relationship advice, but thankfully I think Swistle is up to both tasks! I think it just goes to show how meaningful and weighted names are, and how important the process of naming is.
I do have one idea for a compromise, but it only works if you didn’t change your last name—baby boy can have your husbands first and middle if he gets your last name.
But principles about the patriarchal naming process aside, you just don’t like his name for anyone but him. He needs to know so he can grieve the loss of that idea (something all of us can understand) and move on to helping you find this baby’s name. Good luck, mama!
I think the main problem might be that you disagree about naming the baby after your husband for the wrong reasons. You said, “I have issues around that, one that it’s sexist to baby girls, completely egotistical and a bit chauvinist.” Naming a baby after the baby’s parent is completely normal and has nothing to do with patriarchy. My oldest is named after me and pretty much every other oldest daughter in our clan (there are 9 of us siblings with 52 kids between us) is also named after her mother. My SIL has two daughters named after her–one got her first name and one got her middle. People have been naming babies after themselves since there first arose the need for naming traditions–hence names like Rasmussen, or, son of Rasmus. If you approach your husband with an accusation of patriarchy and chauvinism, then I can understand his irritation and wanting to dig in his heels.
If you had written this identical letter except it was your husband not wanting to name the baby after you, the outrage would have been instant. Nobody would cry foul, they would just rally around and say, “Of course a baby should be named after you” So be fair. It is completely normal and legitimate to want a child named after yourself if you are the parent of said child, and I certainly hope your husband is someone you love and respect enough to want to honor in this way! Are you sure he isn’t hearing that you DON’T want to honor him and his fatherhood?
That being said, if you really dislike the name, then maybe you could move the name to the middle slot? That’s also a normal, legitimate way to handle this issue. When my sister and her hubby were fighting about the same thing, they eventually decided to move the name to the middle spot. It was a little different because she really loves her husband’s name (Sterling) but didn’t want to deal with the headache of two people in one house with the same name. Not liking a name and not wanting hassle with a name are two very legitimate reasons to not pick a name.
Maybe there is a reason you don’t want it in the middle spot. You didn’t mention the possibility in your letter, so maybe your husband is unwilling to consider it as a middle, or maybe you really dislike the name and don’t even want it it in the middle.
Still. Where is the compromise here? A second middle? The same initials? A different name that is really important to your husband?
There might not be a compromise. I get that. I hope, though, that you can figure out a compromise so that neither of you end up bitter or with name regret. Sometimes naming discussions become more gentle when the baby actually arrives and everyone is awash with feelings of love and awe at the miracle of the baby. Maybe the baby will be a girl so the discussion can be tabled for another year or so. Whatever happens, I hope this doesn’t keep both you and your hubby from really relishing the excitement of a new baby on the way.
I, for one, would also be saying that sadly the LW will need to give up the name if the issue was that her husband didn’t want to give the baby her name. Baby-naming is a two-person process when there are two parents involved. A strongly stated veto is always a veto, regardless of the reasons why. “Normal” naming practices are highly subjective and culturally based. It seems reasonable for the LW to have preferences that are based on her reaction to the culture she lives in. I live in the U.S. and can think of many sons I know that are named after fathers but only one daughter named after a mother. It seems reasonable for the LW to detect a whiff of chauvinism in this practice, and I don’t think it’s up to us to try to convince her that her feelings are wrong.
In United States naming culture, it is common to name sons for fathers, and far, far less common to name daughters for mothers. We are very familiar with John Edward Anderson III or whatever; I’ve never met an Elizabeth Marigold Anderson III—or any woman who has her mother’s complete name. Surnames too are most commonly done on the patriarchal system, using the father’s family name, which is why it works to have a long naming tradition through the male line (III, IV, V, etc.). Exceptions to this (an occasional daughter named for a mother, an occasional family using the mother’s surname) don’t mean the general rule/system is not in place. A father using his name for a son seems natural to us; a mother using her name for a daughter elicits surprise. A family using the father’s surname seems natural to us; a family using the mother’s surname elicits surprise.
We do in fact have a predominately patriarchal naming system, and noticing the reality of that is important. Objecting to that patriarchal system on principal is a legitimate preference, and it is inappropriate to call it a “wrong” reason or to pretend that the concept of men handing down their names to their sons has “nothing to do with patriarchy.” It is in fact a perfect example of patriarchy: so established, it seems natural—and seems wrong to object to it.
From time to time we receive a letter from a mother who wants to use her name for a daughter but has been told that that’s “weird” or “egotistical.” Certainly we rise up at that: if it’s not considered weird or egotistical for a man to use his name for a son, why would it be weird or egotistical for a mother to use her name for a daughter? This is not the same thing as saying that if the mother would like a namesake, the father MUST agree to use that name. Certainly we would never set it up as a test in which the father doesn’t love and honor the mother unless he agrees to submit to her preference no matter what he thinks of the name. We ask him only to consider it the same way he would consider using his own name for a son—and that’s a big step for a lot of people.
I would like to see it become more common to encounter, say, an Elizabeth Marigold Anderson III, daughter of Elizabeth Marigold Anderson Jr., but right now that structure is so uncommon I’ve never personally seen it. My guess is that even in your family, where there is a pleasingly hearty tradition of naming daughters for mothers, the daughters are named only partly for their mothers and are not juniors/IIIs/IVs/etc.
I appreciate your suggestion of finding other ways to compromise, but it’s unhelpful to deny that the patriarchal naming structure exists when it patently does, or to suggest that if a mother doesn’t want to use the father’s name it means she “doesn’t honor him and his fatherhood,” or doesn’t love and respect him.
Agree entirely with Swistle’s comment here.
I have never seen (not that it doesn’t exist) a daughter carrying her mom’s full name. I have seen plenty of girls named after grandmas and fewer named after mom in the first name slot. Closest examples I can think of are the fictional Lorelai Gilmores (which was seen as a bit weird, and also still named after a paternal grandmother) and Serena Williams and Alexis Ohanian’s daughter Alexis Olympia Ohanian, named after her father.
I guess my big issue with having an issue *ha* is that if we lived in a matriarchal naming system, men would have an equally legitimate reason to be irritated that the system was matriarchal. My point is that NOBODY here on earth today set up our current naming system with the intent of doing anything negative to women. Naming systems were pretty neutral and benign in their origins–starting as ways to keep track of each other. There are plenty of cultures with matriarchal systems and plenty with patriarchal. Here in the USA we have a patriarchal naming system not because anyone was trying to oppress or suppress women, but because our traditions are British in origin. Just because the naming system that we happened to be born into is patriarchal doesn’t make it bad or wrong because of it. Keep in mind it is a system designed to keep track of people–nothing more, nothing less.
Everything else is baggage brought to the table by individual people. That brings us back to the writer of the letter. She has negative feelings about the system of naming in America being patriarchal, but that doesn’t mean her husband should feel the same way. Nobody has to feel bad about the system happening to be patriarchal. Nobody has to feel bad that there are male juniors and not female juniors.
I feel like nobody wants to point out that if a woman keeps her own name and names her children her own name then the husband’s name isn’t passed on. Is that somehow more fair? No, it isn’t. It’s just different. I don’t care one way or another about what individual people choose to do with their names, but the discussion always feels fairly one-sided.
I stand with my original point. Just because the writer feels uncomfortable with the patriarchal naming system doesn’t mean her husband, or anyone else, should feel the same. If the discussions between the letter writer and her spouse have centered around the patriarchal issue–and I have no idea how these discussions have played out and I don’t pretend to–then I can see why the discussion would really, really annoy him.
I didn’t say that she didn’t honor him or his fatherhood. I said that is what he might be hearing when she says she doesn’t want to use his name. I am saying that she needs to be very clear about WHY she doesn’t want to pass on his name, so that he doesn’t FEEL slighted in that way. I think I made it pretty clear that plain not liking the name feels like a good enough reason to me to not use it.
Anyway, there is no perfect naming system. You can try to retain every single name on both sides of the family and eventually you’ll have a kid with twenty hyphenated last names. Then the naming system falls apart because it is no longer useful as a way to keep track of people. In our current historical point of time, very few people care (at least those my age and younger, and I’m 39) what people do with their own last names or their kids’s last names. Make your own system! Do your own thing! Name the baby what you want! No one cares. But if your husband really, really, really wants to name a baby after himself, then that request should be seriously considered, and, if denied, denied for reasons other than a patriarchal naming system.
” Naming systems were pretty neutral and benign in their origins–starting as ways to keep track of each other. There are plenty of cultures with matriarchal systems and plenty with patriarchal. ”
I understand your stance and follow your line of logic, but I vehemently disagree with it. Naming-systems were NOT neutral in their origin. There is a very specific reason the way to keep track of people was done through the man. Everyone was named as either the man’s son or the man’s daughter (e.g. Anderson, Wilson, Simonsdochter, etc.). Sure, there are societies that have a matriarchal naming tradition, but a.) there are not PLENTY of them and I’m willing to bet patriarchal naming traditions are FAR MORE prevalent than matriarchal ones and b.) they are also not neutral. Even matriarchal naming traditions have a symbolic purpose.
To deny the symbolic purpose of naming-systems is, I believe, incorrect. That’s what names ARE. Symbols. And it is VERY symbolic to carry the father’s name down, but not the mother’s name (and, vice versa, it is also symbolic to carry the mother’s name down, but not the father’s).
” My point is that NOBODY here on earth today set up our current naming system with the intent of doing anything negative to women. ”
I find this comment slightly tone deaf (I apologize, I can’t think of a less harsh phrase). Let’s not forget how much women had to suffer at the hand’s of men throughout history, in majority of the cultures. Women have been oppressed and suppressed for centuries and to this day, there is still evidence of this. OF COURSE a patriarchal naming-system was a symptom of the mentality that men are/were viewed more important than women when it first started. That is, in fact, a very negative thing, in my opinion.
“… and, if denied, denied for reasons other than a patriarchal naming system.”
Finally, to your point that just because the naming- system is patriarchal, doesn’t mean the intent of the person trying use that system is patriarchal. Individually, this may or may not be true, but as a bigger picture, I”m failing to see the relevance of this. Just because your individual intent isn’t to be negative to women, doesn’t mean the system you’re pushing for won’t have a negative effect. For example, perhaps your individual feelings and intent isn’t to do XYZ, but you’re voting for a politicians that supports or has done XYZ (this is an extreme example), so you’re somewhat complicit in prolonging the system (again, I don’t think naming systems are at this level).
My point is, I think it’s perfectly valid for a woman to deny a use of a name because it seems patriarchal and chauvinistic. That’s as valid, if not more, of a reason than simply not liking the sound of the name. And if the situation were flipped, I personally would say the same thing, but I can see a huge gaping difference between the two situations. a man wanting to name his son directly after him (a Jr/Sr/III) is a commonplace in our society and would be viewed as normal (as you do). A woman wanting to do the same for her daughter would be viewed as abnormal and weird. So, since there is NO matriarchal naming system in place in the US, I could see the argument that it would be invalid for the husband to use the “it’s matriarchal, so I don’t like it” argument against it. Since Matriarchy does not exist in our society on the societal level, it would be like saying a majority group is being racist towards a minority group. Yes, on an individual level it can happen, but not on a level where polices and naming-systems are made.
Yeah, a veto is a veto. I love Swistle’s advice.
One of my daughters is named after me, but as Swistle points out, we didn’t go so far as to do a junior… I am Firstname MyMiddle MyLastname and daughter #1 is Firstname HonorMiddle MyLastname-HusbandsLastname. Even with these differences we get a surprising amount of ongoing input to let us know how uncomfortable and unfamiliar our culture is with matriarchal naming. Just comments like, Wow! You have a MiniMe, or You didn’t give her her own name? As well as, most commonly, people double or triple checking that we have the same first name even when they’ve definitely been told and heard clearly or seen it written. Sometimes they try to get me to “correct my mistake” on forms—e.g. I think you wrote your name here, not your daughter’s. Or TSA people will think our tickets are misprinted/doubled with a missing one. …just agreeing with Swistle that naming daughters after moms is not the norm.
Just an observation: our naming system is so patriarchal that even IF a woman should use her own last name for a child, it is likely her fathers last name. And if it isn’t, then it’s her maternal grandfather’s last name. So even when we are trying to be represented equally, we still aren’t because women do not get their own surnames. Our naming convention does not involve women having their own names and stems from a woman being either the property of her father or her husband. It’s not awesome.