Hi Swistle!
I have a weird question. My boyfriend and I have very different naming styles. I like classic, but perhaps underused names like:
Beatrice
Alice
FrancesGeorge
Arthur
Charles(Basically, I like classic names that are currently coming back into fashion.)
My boyfriend, on the other hand, insists on “pre-Christian” names because he doesn’t feel comfortable with names that remind him of Western expansion. Here are some examples that he finds acceptable:
Freya
Sigurd
ArtemisSigmund
Torvald
AkselI hope you can get a sense of our competing styles. Particularly for boys names, I am having difficulty finding any compromise names. Do you have suggestions?
We live in the US! Thank you!
Yes, I certainly do get a sense of your competing styles. And here is the problem: YOU are choosing baby names for babies born in your own country and time period; HE is choosing philosophies. It’s hard to see where compromise can get a foot in when it’s not “Hm, no, that one’s not really my style” but instead “Hm, no, that one reminds me of Western Expansion.” I can’t help with his naming style, or with whatever the issues are that underlie his style. Furthermore, I notice that the Acceptable names on his list are…not widely international.
My hope is that we are talking here about someone who is Quite Young, possibly a college student taking some classes that are really blowing his mind right now, and that there is still hope for this to be the kind of thing we all laugh about later. A friend of mine is married to a guy who during their dating years was set on animal names (Fox, Bear, Wolf, etc.) for all sons (he did not persist in this wish), and I have a good story about Paul wanting to name a daughter Fenchurch. Or maybe your boyfriend is a serious and thoughtful and well-intentioned global thinker who is trying really hard to do the right thing in every area of his life. Or maybe he just has this one funny little quirk that makes him look bad taken out of context like this. But this letter makes me want to ask you a bunch of follow-up questions about other philosophies of his and what else he considers acceptable/unacceptable, and then ask you earnestly if this is what you want for your life. I’m sorry: this isn’t the answer you were asking for. But your letter made my hands go cold and my mouth go dry. From time to time there have been other letters that have given me a similar reaction, but when the writer is already married and pregnant, it’s too late for there to be any point in me saying so.
Well. *brushes off hands* Let’s see if there are some among us who DO know about pre-Christian, non-Western-Expansion-related names and would be happy to finally have a chance to discuss them.
A good compromise would be to find a pre-Christian name that can be shortened to something that sounds more vintage like you like. So your husband gets the style he likes for the given name, but you still get your style. I know Evan doesn’t fit the bill, but as an example Evander is a Roman name and he could go by Evan. I also was surprised at what I found as far as more familiar names. Flora sounds super classic and vintage to me but it’s actually a Roman name. Edwin is also pre-Christian.
I would suggest looking up Roman, Celtic and Anglo-Saxon names and see what nicknames would make for a good compromise.
I can think of so many Roman/Greek names that for his definition of pre-Christian (but perhaps not his intent? But Artemis is on his list which is definitely in this group?):
Julian/Julius
Augusta
Penelope
Athena
Nero
Hercules
Claudius
etc.
Kwame
Barack
Kalifa
Haji
Shaka
Great Suggestions! Especially if he is honestly into pre-Christian.
Somehow I don’t the the boyfriend is in to African names.
Amos
Moses
David
Ebrahim
Dalia
Dinah
Judith
Does Old Testament count as pre-Christian? Bc there are many many great, old-fashioned sounding Old Testament names. Rachel! Sarah! Miriam! Eve! Adam! Daniel! Jacob!
But perhaps he is against anything Judeo-Christian??
So here is the thing…Alice is a pre-Christian name. So is Edith. So is Arthur. Frances gets tricky because it’s derived from a Latin (potentially Christian!) word for the Franks (definitely not!), which seems to originally come from a Germanic word for javelin. Which kind of makes me wonder how many of the pre-Christian names are going to end up problematically glorifying warfare or nobility, cause a lot of them do.
If your boyfriend’s style is actually “aggressively different,” that’s a separate issue and you may want to have some discussions about how aggressively different he would like to be in all aspects of life. Yurts are great for some people, but not for everyone.
And I say all of this with a lot of sympathy for your boyfriend. When I was considering names, finding out something had been in use back before the Norman conquest was always a plus for me, because I’m a nerd like that. And there really are a lot of good names that fit that category out there. (behindthename.com is your friend here).
One other quick (although possibly irrelevant) point…sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. If your boyfriend is insisting on naming a baby Torvald because he’s worried that a more mainstream name will come across as pro-colonialism, point out to him that Norse mythology is being co-opted by white supremacist groups.
Also, you might ask your boyfriend if his objection to western expansion names extends to the British Royal Family. That seems like it might be a better description of the names on your list that are pre-Christian but that he apparently is not on board for (which again, I have sympathy for….my husband wanted a name for a son that sounded noble. I didn’t. I vetoed Charles, only agreed to George if we could exclusively call him Jory, and would have liked Arthur in theory but probably not in practice. Luckily we had two girls).
I typed out a reply along these same lines and ended up deleting it. But you’ve said (very well) what I wanted to say. By abandoning Western Expansion names (and their potential baggage) and turning to names like Freya and Sigmund, the boyfriend is importing a whole lot of other possible issues (which he would be wise to research thoroughly if philosophy matters).
Good luck. I hope we haven’t depressed the writer too much with our cautions. All names have some baggage for someone.
I actually don’t think this is depressing at all…being a young couple figuring out and talking through your values is fun and exciting, and there are lots of good names out there for them.
Which reminds me, I haven’t actually offered any suggestions yet…partially because I think the first step is nailing down a better definition of the boyfriend’s criteria.
1) pre-Christian where? Given the preference for Norse names, I’m going to assume the couple is somewhat Northern European (or maybe trying to culturally appropriate cultural appropriation ironically?). So there’s gonna be a lot of Greek names that are technically pre-Christian that were transported to Northern Europe via Christianity. I mean, technically, Jesus is a pre-Christian name if you think about it. If Greek, non-Biblical names are fair game, I’d double down on George. It means farmer/earthworker – so nothing about vanquishing enemies.
2) what kind of Christianity are we dealing with here? I’m not Catholic, so saint names don’t really stand out to me as having particular religious significance, but I know to some people they really do.
3) is a vaguely royal feeling a problem? Because otherwise, Hugh is a great option. Means head, mind, spirit. Also, there’s Hugin and Munin in Norse mythology, that might appeal to your boyfriend.
4) does it need to be uncommon? Cause there’s a whole world of names like Owen, Logan, Duncan, Mason, Aidan, Rowan, Ronan, Tristan, etc… (and as someone whose first preference is classic names, how do you feel about more trendy two syllable ends with -en names? Because a lot of them are Celtic).
5) how about names that would definitely show up in historical fiction about pre-Christian Europe, but also haven’t been completely out of use in the meantime…like Bernard, Bertram, Alfred, Edwin, Cedric?
6) how much is this about principle, and how much is it about thinking Norse names are cool? Theodore nicknamed Thor? Is there anything other acceptable way to communicate principle or coolness with a name? (Like a namesake, or a virtue name)
7) how important is spelling? It’s not like the Vikings were writing down their names all the time. Could he meet you halfway with Axel?
8) has your boyfriend ever walked into a Starbucks and gave his name as Torvald? How did he feel about it?
This! I am a sucker for Scandinavian and non-Christian names, but to have only ancient Norse names on the list made me double-take precisely because of that connection between resurgent white supremacy and that name set. Ewww. And look, I named my kids Una and Frederick so there’s two options right there that-at least to me-don’t scream Western expansion but also sound sort of reasonable in contemporary Western culture.
Also George is very pre-Christian. It from a Greek nickname for Zeus.
The challenge with being a Westerner and wanting a name that existed prior to Western expansion is that you risk over-correcting and landing in cultural appropriation. In order to avoid perpetuating the sins of Western expansion, consider how other groups would feel about your baby’s name, particularly those with descendants in what is currently the United States. Would you be seen as an ally, or a cultural tourist? Or even an oppressor?
Kerry also brings up an excellent point about researching who else is using less common names and why. It would be a blow to give a baby a lovely, unusual name, and then learn it was a favorite of white supremacists.
I’m not sure it’s possible to research all possible fringe groups and their baby naming choices….it’s hard enough to keep track of the mainstream stuff. Knowing that the Soldiers of Odin exist isn’t going to make me judge the parents of every little Torvald I meet.
Just, sometimes in a relationship, it becomes necessary to ruin your partners favorite name for them – and people who are prone to overthinking and over-philosophizing and choosing overly symbolic names leave themselves extra vulnerable to it. So I thought I’d give the letter writer some ammunition.
Oh, for sure. It’s not going to be possible to keep tabs on every hate group (and what an unenviable task). But plugging the top choices into Google never hurts, especially when considering names that you don’t personally encounter in day-to-day life.
I actually know of a young man named Aryan….and although I don’t know the deepest recesses of his parents’ souls by any means, from what I do know about them it seems more likely that his parents liked the name Ryan but thought it would be more unique with an A in front than that they’re secretly white supremacists. It probably would have been good if Google had existed when they named him.
My jaw is on the floor. Poor guy.
I know an Ariane who’s always quick to introduce herself as “Ariane, it rhymes with Mary Anne, not like Aryan.” A subtle difference in pronunciation, but an important one.
Um, I think your bf should probably consider not making a political/religious statement with the child’s name. I would also consider having some conversations with him about his understanding of cultural appropriation. Something like Freya would be fine on a White child in the U.S., “a lot of “pre-Christian” names are likely to be from other cultures who may find it offensive for use on a child not from that culture. For example, I would likely avoid using a Native American name unless one or both of you claim membership in the tribe the name comes from.
That said, I think the compromise for the two of you would be to agree to look at names that are not Biblical and/or without strong Christian associations. For example, Arthur isn’t Biblical and is not likely to read as “Christian” to most people. Another way to go might be to consider nature or word names like Verity, Rose, or Violet. You’ll find plenty there that fit your style, without them being specifically tied to Christian thought/Western expansion.
I totally agree with this comment! You want to avoid cultural appropriation – this seems to be a bit a trend lately (especially in the alternative/hippie and yoga worlds) but think of your child in 80 years having to explain a name like Bodhi or Karma (assuming this is a white American child). The idea of using word or nature names is a clever one.
Forrest
Gray
Bear/Fox/Tiger
August
Summer/June/May/Autumn/Winter
Flora/Violet/Rose/Dahlia
Clementine
Fern/Aspen
I’d skip Forrest though unless you are ok w/ Forrest Gump jokes or references to Nathaniel Bedford Forrest, founder of the KKK. Maybe Linden/Lyndon?
I agree that there’s a whiff of Aryan Nation about the names LW’s boyfriend chose. Maybe intentional, maybe not, but it’s a lot to put on a baby and could lead to questions/assumptions about the baby’s parents.
So, this seems like a much bigger issue than competing “naming styles,” as Swistle pointed out. This seems like it is your boyfriend’s world view and philosophical mindset that you are asking for our aid in finding a compromise with.
My question for you is:
1. Do you share his “anti western expansion” philosophy?
If yes, then by all means, review some of the names that have already been suggested by other commenters. If no, then I would seriously consider digging deeper into your boyfriend’s mindset than just finding names that you both like the sound of.
Where else in your life would this viewpoint manifest? Would you be comfortable explaining the “Pre-christian, anti-western expansion” philosophy every single time you get a question on your child’s name? And with an unusual name, you are likely going to get questions on the name. Do you feel comfortable with the thought of your child having to explain the reasoning behind his name? What if your child doesn’t share that viewpoint?
I apologize for getting too in the weeds here, but I always get concerned when parents come up with grand-out of this world-transcendental ideas for their child’s name. I would just urge you to keep in mind that your child is going to be his/her own individual person one day, with his own opinions and philosophies. Is it fair for you and your husband to subject your child to a controversial philosophy he may or may not adapt? I’m not saying one or the other, I’m just hoping you will consider all these things. (and perhaps you already have!). Just my two cents.
Sorry for double-commenting, but I also want to echo others sentiments on cultural appropriation. I am inclined to believe that your BF has all the good intentions in the world, but I fear he might be toeing the line into over correcting the other direction. Whether you like it or not, the fact of the matter is, you and your BF likely ARE part of western expansion (not saying it’s your fault at all!) – and picking a name from another cultural that you THINK is “anti western expansion” could end up just offending people from that culture.
I also fear that you boyfriend is not fully researching the history behind the names. Western expansion was not the only evil in the world. I’m no historian, but other “pre-christian” cultures likely did some bad things throughout history too – in trying to make a statement about the evils of western expansion, is your boyfriend then inadvertently commending another evil philosophy (depending on what that name means in another culture?).
Again, just some things to think about! And like I said before, I have no doubt that your boyfriend has all the good intentions, but sometimes it doesn’t hurt to challenge ourselves on our philosophies.
B. Makes an excellent point. Your boyfriend doesn’t want a name that reminds him of “western expansion”, (I assume this is the expansion that occurred within the U.S.?), but he’s ok with names from Scandinavian culture and Ancient Greece. Other posters have also suggested Roman names. If I was trying to avoid names from a culture that oppressed others, I wouldn’t automatically turn to the Vikings who terrorized Europe for a number of centuries, nor Greece who, through Alexander the Great, forced their culture on many people groups who didn’t want it, and of course the Romans were not kind in their conquests either. So, perhaps you should ask your boyfriend to clarify whether it’s the Christian religion he doesn’t like or political oppression. Because if it’s the former, you have plenty of good names to choose from, but if it’s the latter your child might remain nameless.
As someone who has an unusual name…I have to think about poor little Freya or Torvald having to explain the meaning or philosophy behind their name.
My parents were hippies. I NEVER tell the truth about what my parents were going for with my name. But I’ll tell it here… it’s a reference to marijuana.
As someone who has worked in criminal justice for most of my adult life you can imagine how I shy away from any explanation.
PLUS I never got a cool keychain.
I feel for you. Thank you for sharing your experience!
Ok, I’m going to take a stab at finding a few names that MIGHT bridge this gap. I’m going to leave off my commentary regarding BF’s “style”. Other commenters have voice most of my thoughts much better than I could.
So, onward to some names to consider….(note: i have anglicized most of the spellings)
Cassandra
Alexandria
Eula/Eulalie
Phoebe
Unna/Una
Alma
Tara
Sabina/Sabine
Marla
Delia
Melissa
Lavinia
Isadora
Nicholas
Theo/Teo
Cyrus
Virgil
Cedric
Otto
Linus
Justus
Leonidas
Erwin
Irvin
Julian
Adrian/Hadrian
Marius/Mario
Hector
These might be too “royal” for BF, but I wanted to include them anyway:
Olivier/Oliver
George
Edward
Anne/Ana
I may be wrong, but I got the idea that this is a “hypothetical” naming conversation and that there is not yet any real, soon-to-be born child to name.
So not to discount the stress and worry about potential huge fights about future children’s names, and all of the ramifications already brought up by others about what this unconventional naming style SAYS about the boyfriend, but I’ve found that many times that naming children in theory means you have a very different style than when it comes to naming a VERY REAL baby.
The Starbucks test is a great example of this. But it may turn out that 5 years from now (or whenever) that his desire to “make a point” comes very far down the list from actually wanting to give his child a decent, usable name.
I think this would drive me a little nuts because it seems like such a double standard. He’s okay with Roman names because goodness knows THEY never took over anyone else’s country. Expansion is okay as long as it happened a really long time ago? Maybe they could go with Genghis. ;)
I think Swistle’s advice is great. And Beeejet is amazing at coming up with names!
Yes the problem I have with his list is that while to HIM perhaps they sound anti-Western expansion, to everyone else they sound either (best case) very specifically ethnic or (worst case) white supremist. Which seems to be the opposite of what he wants, philosophically.
No one else is going to associate mainstream names with Western Expansion. But his list is definitely associated with white supremacy.
On a positive note, I love the nature names listed here. They seem very historically and culturally neutral as a group.
This is probably my favourite letter ever! Fascinating. I would love to have a conversation with your BF about his thinking on this one. A clue of his heritage would help.
Our children’s names always reflect our values. There is no way to avoid it unless we go with random name generators. The trick is that we need to consider what happens if our child doesn’t share those values when they are older. I always feel the desperate need to stamp my heritage on my children (family names, wildly obvious religious references, something that shows how smart I am) – fortunately my hubby balances this out with a practical mindset.
I actually think there is a fair bit of middle ground in your choices and you should be able to find something that suits both of you. Your bf should read all the above very good comments and consider his motives and you should look to compromise and find something that is workable and fits his values and your taste.
Also a note about cultural expansion (by that I assume you mean colonisation?). I only took one anthropology class but I remember hearing that every single expansion of territory throughout history took place via genocide and displacement. There has been a constant wave of invaders pushing out indigenous peoples, who are then pushed out themselves. There are few world cultures that could claim they were *never* the invaders. **This does not take away from the very legitimate experiences of displaced peoples now or excuse the systemic discrimination that they face** It does make it hard to choose a ‘safe’ culture to name from. For example Artemis. Macedonians may not approve. Sigurd, have a read about the sacking and burning that preceded the Danelaw.
Considering that the examples provided hail from expansionist traditions my guess is that your BF is trying to justify his own naming style in a way that locks you in. This is a variation of a tactic we have seen many times on this blog. You don’t have to agree. You can put all names on the table. Another option is to put your own spin on his choices. He sees Sigurd as pre-christian, you see it as literary. I googled scandinavian literature and came up with these choices:
Karl
Erik
Par
Hal
Regin (Sigurd’s betrayer)
Leonie (Nelly)
Aida
Callista (yes greek I know but it is from an opera that is germanic)
Good luck. Don’t make baby names a relationship deal breaker. If I had done that I would have missed out on nearly 20 years (and counting) with a wonderful man who’s main crime is thinking that Jocelyn and Bruce are great names. (He would counter with Benedicta, Paschal, and Mary-Josephe).
“remind him of Western expansion” – this does not necessarily mean this person wants a name that has zero oppressive history. I read this to mean, perhaps, “no British names” since the poster is proposing names with British history.
Not sure where the middle ground is here. I would perhaps go Greek — some can have that classic feel, but also the adventurous vibe BF is maybe going for.
Girls:
Aster
Calista
Cassia
Daphne
Delia
Gaia
Helen/a
Iris
Lydia
Aileen
Boys:
Adrian
Basil
Dion
Linus
Calix
Miles
Nicos
Theo
I think an important detail is missing: is this a hypothetical, future baby you are naming? Or an arriving-in-months baby you’re naming?
And if it’s a hypothetical name, is your boyfriend the kind of person who isn’t going to take naming seriously until there is a real live baby on its way? Is it possible he’s coming across (in your letter, if not to you and perhaps not in real life) a little self-important and obnoxious because he just doesn’t want to talk about having babies?
Anyway—maybe his intentions are good and there’s a little babe on the way already. In that case, my sincerest recommendation rather than searching for the perfect name from the perfect culture that didn’t commit any recent sins (and avoiding appropriation in the process) is to use or adapt a family or honor name. It might not be perfect or have the perfect history, but it would have lovely associations and make you happy to hear it.
So there have been many times in my marriage where I have taken my husband at his word, only to find later on that he either has no recollection of the conversation or his firmly stated preference was simply a momentary thing or really no big deal at all, and I should have known better than to take him seriously. (The latest has to do with round vs. square plates.) If this was the very first naming discussion, and you’re a frequent reader here, I’m going to guess that your take on the seriousness of this conversation was different than his. He’s probably thinking very theoretically, while you may be actually planning. Even if you are pregnant right now, he’s still in the theoretical stage (my husband stuck with Scipio, Hannibal, and Hippolyta for *months*) and playing with ideas. And hey, the idea of pre-Christian namesisnt terrible, just.. unwieldy, let’s go with that, for all the reasons discussed here. But I would let that conversation go, and start fresh the next time. If he doesn’t bring it up again, you’re golden, or you can throw out some of the stuff mentioned here. Because, you know, guys, sometimes they just don’t get it.
I dislike how his framing of this makes his choices out to be morally superior to yours, and I would be on the look out for that as a argumentative strategy/habit. Of course that’s tricky because there are moral implications for the choices we make in our lives, but if it seems to you like a lot of his arguments come down to “I’m a better/more educated person than you are” that’s worrying. In this case, I actually like some of his name choices, but I hate the way his reasoning lines up with them. If you’re opposed to “western expansion” how oh how can you wish to honor *vikings?* Vikings were all about raiding and settling other peoples’ lands.
I don’t know what his or your cultural background is, and if he’s got a specific cultural tradition that he has some claim to and wants to honor then that makes sense and I can see that feeling like a rejection of colonial expansion. But if he himself belongs to a western cultural tradition, what the world needs from him is not an attempt to return to some supposedly better past or to appropriate bits of other cultures as better, it’s that he work on remaking his culture into something healthier and less destructive. If that’s the case, then his children maybe should remind him of western cultural sins, because they, like he, will have to grapple with the moral responsibility of their legacies for their whole lives. That’s not something to be run away from, that’s something to be grappled with. I can see this as an attempt by your boyfriend to do so, so I don’t want to be unkind, but trying to give his children morally “pure” names is simply not possible.
I guess I have some questions for him. If his problem is that names “remind him” of western colonial expansion then what makes them have that effect on him? I wonder if part of what he’s reacting to in your names is their specifically *Victorian* feel, which is a time with some particular colonial problems. Or maybe it’s actually the christenness specifically that’s a problem? He certainly gets to have names that bother him, for good or bad reasons, but it really sounds like he’s saying that his antipathy extends to a huge swath of the available names (especially if he’s also aware enough to try to avoid appropriation) and he wants his preferences treated as morally superior and non-negotiable while rejecting yours out of hand. That’s a problem.
I’ve been thinking about how to formulate my thoughts, but it seems like others have covered most of them. So I’ll just say that I can understand not wanting an overtly religious name or one that screams “western supremacy”. In that case, I’d scrap Sigmund and Sigurd (the connection between Nazism and Wagner”s work is very strong). Others have already mentioned that Charles, George, Alice, Frances and Arthur all have pre-Christian roots. The etymology of Beatrice is a bit trickier, but it’s not necessarily Christian. Charles actually seems very anti-colonialist to me, given that it means ‘free man’.
As for suggestions, these names have pre-Christian histories (or are mentioned as pre-Christian figures by later writers, as with Rowena and Gwendolen). I’ll try to avoid repeats:
Matilda
Rowena
Gwendolen
Rosamund
Rosalind
Diana
Cora
Camilla
Zoe
Chloe
Sybil
Sylvia / Silvia
Audrey
Zelda
Clio
Giselle
Edwina
Eloise
Louisa
Joy
Honora
Victoria
Winifred
Maia
Finn
Finnian
Hugo, Hugh
Victor
Arnold
Robert
Dylan
Edmund
Oscar
Angus
Alexander
William
Fergus
Wilfred
Felix
Dunstan
Crispin
Harold
Florian
Walter
Or, how about these names of people who resisted colonialism, inequality or invasion (and have names with pre-Christian roots). This seems like a more meaningful way to show solidarity with those resisting Western expansion (or other forms of displacement or oppression):
Alice (There are plenty of great namesakes, including the First Nations activists Alice E. Brown and Alice Lee Jemison, and the suffragette Alice Henry)
Beatrice (Beatrice Long Visitor Holy Dance, Oglala Lakota community leader)
Faye (Faye Schulman)
Sophia/ Sophie (Sophie Scholl)
Emmeline (Pankhurst)
Adela (Adela of Hamaland)
Violette (Violette Szabo)
Edith (Edith Cowan)
Maeve (Queen Medb)
Harriet (Harriet Tubman)
Rosa (Rosa Luxemberg)
Frances or Francis – (Fannie Lou Harmer, Frantz Fanon or François-Dominique Toussaint Louverture).
Edward (Eddie Koiki Mabo)
Henry (Henry Berry Lowrie)
Nelson (Nelson Mandela)
Or a pre-Christian name that sounds like the modern version of a classic – Theodoric nn Theo? Amatilda? Evander?
Or, of course, compromise with a classic first name and a middle name that reflects your values & worldviews.
Good luck finding a compromise that works for both of you.
Thank you all for your helpful comments. A few things to note:
1. My boyfriend is not terribly political. I think his mindset is less about philosophy and more about the fact that he lived/worked for several years in Korea and Morocco — two places where the names are relatively immune to the naming trends of the rest of the world. If he had started a family in one of those places (as he nearly did — he was engaged to a woman in Korea but they broke up and he moved back to the US), he would have been naming his child non-Western names. He doesn’t live in either of those places anymore and so he leans towards old names from his own heritage (hence the Scandinavian leanings — we live in the upper Midwest so it’s not uncommon up here).
2. He isn’t young (we’re both 34) but he does have Aspergers, so that may explain why his ideas strike folks on here as being very odd and/or young. He definitely isn’t trying to avoid the topic of babies — he really wants kids of his own, but between living abroad and being a little different neurobiologically, he’s only now in a position to do it.
3. No, we are not married, but I am peeing on a stick as we speak. (Not literally…..the test was negative this morning but I am only 11 DPO…)
This helps clear things up a little. To be honest, some of the names from his list (Sigmund) combined with the phrases “western expansion” (which I thought might be code for “globalist”) and “pre-Christian” (“heathen”?) gave me pause. My alarm bells for the far right started going off. Reading between the lines, he still sounds possibly Traditionalist with a capital T, which is fine if that’s what you’re into as well. But the fact that you wrote in, and that you’re bringing up naming conflicts…well, Swistle’s reaction (cold hands, mouth dry) is still mine, too.
The other issue that gave me pause is all of the names you listed as your favorites ARE pre-Christian. Alice, Arthur, and Beatrice are particularly clearly so. None of them even have a prominent saint attached to them, and Alice’s roots are Germanic. Which makes me think his ideology is more pernicious than it seems.
You also wrote “He doesn’t live in either of those places anymore and so he leans towards old names from his own heritage.” But what is *your* heritage? Are you also Scandinavian?
Also, ironically funny: Alice has been the #1 name for girls in Sweden for a couple of years now. But somehow i don’t think your boyfriend is interested in what names are currently considered mainstream there. I have spent a lot of time in a Nordic country–not Sweden–and with the exception of Freya/Freja, none of the names sound normal/in modern use to my ear, and a few of them (well, Sigmund) sound far right-ish right off the bat. At best, I hope your boyfriend is just clueless about this and as soon as he realizes their connotations, and more importantly, the value of your opinions and tastes in this matter, he’ll compromise. At worst, I worry that you are in the dark still about something in his beliefs and the way he wants to live his life. Which will impact yours.
That said, good luck on all fronts!
And just to add another small point on name usage vs name heritage – Freya is actually quite a popular name in the UK and has been a top 20(ish) name for the past 5 years at least and top 50 for the past 15. I know I’m biased as I live here, but I see Freya as quite a British middle-class name, especially with the namesake of Freya Stark and the handful of young Freya’s that I personally know – which seems to directly negate the goal in mind. Just another dimension to add to this complex (yet very interesting) conversation on naming styles…
I accidentally left this thread open our computer last night, and my husband (who once told me that his friends would be super impressed if we gave our son the middle name Hugin) saw it and remarked
“What pre-Roman names does this guy like?”
and then
“Oh shit.”
and then
“Torvald is a last name”
and then
“Fenchurch as in Fenchurch from Hitchhiker’s Guide?”
Which is kind of incidental, except to say that your boyfriend seems pretty normal to me, at least in my social circle where baby names are often a game of figuring out what sci fi/fantasy/history reference one parent or the other snuck in. Pre-Christian Europe is interesting and cool, and you don’t have to be a white supremacist to think so. And I can totally identify with the feeling that the list of (especially male) names that have been deemed as mainstream (which is to say, appropriately Eurocentric) and presidential and whatever else just aren’t quite right for your kid…although hopefully he wouldn’t lecture anyone else about choosing one for their kid.
I’m skimming through lists of Norse names, and the ones that stand out to me as usable are Brandt, Bjorn, Colborn, Erik, Erling, Hammond, Hemming, Leif, Thorston, and Thurmond. But none of those seem particularly similar to the names you like. I think you both need a third category of names…ones that you like that don’t sound natural with “King” in front, and ones that he likes that don’t sound natural with “son of” in front, and see if you can find some common ground that way.
I’m going to ditto the comments about how your BF is defining Western Expansion, because the Greeks, and the Romans, and the Vikings are all Western and were pretty darn (violently) expansive, and those are the names he’s looking at.
So I’m also going to ditto the folks who are suggesting names that were made famous by folks who pushed back against White Western Expansion and White Supremacy in the (semi) modern age.
* Harriet (Tubman)
* Winnie (Mandela)
* Nelson (Mandela)
* Helen (Keller)
* Martin (Luther King, Jr)
* Coretta (Scott King)
* Pete (Seeger, heck ANY OF THE WEAVERS).
* Joe (Hill)
* Eleanor (Roosevelt)
* Frederick (Douglass)
* Mohandas (Gandhi) nn Mo?
* George (Fox and Washington Carver and many many others)
* Victor (Jara)
* Gloria (Steinem)
There are, of course, many more, and some of these folks are themselves problematic, but if you love a name, find someone who had that name that fought for a cause you admire.
If you folks are not from India, I would not name your child Mohandas outright, but just Mo if that was something that appealed.
Kerry, I think you and your husband hit the nail on the head! He is definitely of the geeky history/board game persuasion.
And, I cannot stress this enough, he’s definitely not a white supremicist. If he is, he does a remarkable job of hiding it. We went to a BLM event together last year.
Do you by any chance like the name Simon? And does he/do both of you like Firefly? Obviously it’s a very Christian name…but it’s sounding like his preference for pre-Christian might have some wriggle room. And Simon seems like it could fit in your taste but with a slightly different vibe than George and Charles. Or Wesley?
Or there’s also Sam…possibly even short for Samwise instead of Samuel.
Peregrin gets mentioned here as a viable name somewhat frequently. It’s a little out there for me, and I suspect you, but I could totally do Perry (if it didn’t rhyme with my own name).
Or if the history and board games come with a side of computer programming, what about Linus (Pauling)? Comes from Greek mythology, and I think there was a pope at some point, but feels very Scandanavian.
Or Ada (Lovelace)?
Or Alan (Turing)
Or Marian (Rejewski)
Or Robert? It seems like it fits in with the Georges and the Charles, but Rob Roy gives it a rebellious edge. And Scotland is literally the middle ground between your name list and his. (Roy or Malcolm might also be worth considering).
Also Robin Hood
Peregrine is a very religious sounding name to me though. The Spanish form, Pelegrino, literally means “pilgrim.”
True, but the impression I got was that “pre-Christian” might be more about defining a time period than an effort to exclude Christianity, such that early or medeival Christian names might be the next best thing.
(And this might also be a place where, because I don’t have a lot of cultural attachment to various saint names, I don’t recognize what names sound religious to other people…to me the main associations are falcons and Tolkien, but I’ve never known an actual person named Peregrine.)
Yeah sometimes seeing all the Norse names in a list (don’t get me wrong-I love them! I have Scandavian heritage too!) makes me sad because of how they’ve been co-opted. Of course, when you’re naming just one child rather than an army of them it dilutes the connotation so you should be alright. I know kids names Axel and Odin and it’s fine in childhood. Both have the potential to be super tall and Aryan looking though, so I hope they’re ready to face whatever assumptions others might make about them.
As someone earlier said, what about stepping sideways and towards word/virtue/nature names?
Robin
Wren
Jasper
Ruby
Pearl
Hope
Linden
Rowan
Ivy
Holly
Rose
Sage
Ocean
Merit
Soliel
Luna
Cedar
Blue
Verity
etc
Some of the nature names have a sort of pre-Christian resonance to me.
I know the Letter Writer has clarified her husband’s “anti-Western-Expansion” point, but I think some people are being a little hard on him in any case. As someone who lives in a Catholic country but isn’t Catholic, I can sympathise with names that seem to overly represent something you are not. I didn’t swear off any name with Catholic heritage, but I’m pleased I managed to give my daughters names that didn’t represent that dominant culture.
They are Ivy and Sybil by the way, which are both pretty “anti Western Expansion,” without being hard to wear or over-the-top. Although I also think there’s nothing wrong with embracing his geekier side if the Letter Writer can find some common ground.
Well said.
Thanks for clarifying, Letter Writer.
From what you’ve said, I’m thinking that maybe your husband’s style is something like “heritage picks with an ancient or medieval warrior vibe” for boys and “heritage picks with an ancient or medieval vibe and/or badass woman vibes”. Does that sound sort of right?
That still leaves a pretty big gap between your style and his, but I wonder whether the right story might ‘sell’ a more classic name (which you might be able to get on board with) to him.
For girls, how about :
Thora – Scandinavian, incorporates pre-Christian religion, turns up in sagas (
Þóra Borgarhjǫrtr) and medieval history (Þóra Magnúsdóttir). And it sounds right at home with popular and rising vintage picks like Cora and Flora.
Camilla – I know I’ve mentioned her before and yes, there’s a British royal connection at the moment, but there’s also the huntress from the Aenead , who is pretty badass and is favoured by Diana (Roman equivalent to Artemis). Nicknames like Millie or Calla would fit in with other names you’d hear in the playground and Camila is at #32 in the US charts and Camilla at #342
Gwendolen / Gwendoline/ Gwendolyn – this name is not particularly popular at the moment, but it’s familiar and feels classic (to me, anyway) and fits in with the popular -lyn names. The medieval writer Geoffrey of Monmouth’ wrote of Queen Gwendolen, who was pretty fierce.
Boys are harder, but I think Harold might have potential – it gets you the nn Harry, which fits well with the boom in Henrys and Harrys. There was a 10th-century Viking chief called Harold, as well as two Anglo-Saxon kings of Britain (who both had Scandinavian heritage).
Oskar or Oscar may be worth considering too – it has a ‘classic’ feel, and is quite popular at the moment. It also has (possibly) Germanic roots, in which case it would mean something like ‘spear of the/a god’. It’s been worn by kings of Sweden & Norway, as well as a warrior from Irish mythology.
A lot has been said already, and I honestly haven’t read all the comments, so hopefully I’m not repeating anything.
With all the skepticism expressed, I do feel the need to play the boyfriend’s advocate for just a moment here. I don’t see anything wrong with wanting a “pre-Christian” name. I also wouldn’t automatically jump to white supremacy, although I do find some of his favorite names a bit odd, as if straight out of a (mythology) book, without necessarily a direct personal tie to the culture of origin (totally guessing here).
As several have already pointed out, many many many of our everyday names are in fact pre-Christian, so I think we need to ask the boyfriend a few more questions. The names on his list here easily fall into the “mythology” category, which is totally up and coming again, if I’m not mistaken. I see Nordic and Greek on there, so perhaps we are not restricted to a particular culture?
As “pre-Christian” is a huge, huge category, you may find yourselves going through the naming dictionaries for a long time. I like behindthename.com to find out about a name’s origin (although only a small selection of international names are represented on there).
When it comes to giving your child a name from a particular culture, I am curious whether there are, in fact, ties to that culture. Does your bf for example have Scandinavian heritage? Is he perhaps a few generations removed and trying to reconnect with his origins? I would find that a perfectly acceptable reason to wade into ancient Scandinavian names, but I would do a ton of research to make sure you don’t accidentally end up with a name that is e.g. not used at all in its country of origin anymore. I personally don’t know any Sigmunds or Torvalds, although I do know a bunch of Sigurds and Þórs.
For example, I grew up in Germany and live in the US now. Sometimes I come across an American wanting to honor their long-lost German heritage by giving their child a German name. But then they end up choosing a super cliché name that hasn’t been in use for a long time, and one that would raise serious eyebrows with any actual German person. (Even worse if the name in question is mispronounced by the parent.) So I would def do due diligence on that one.
If you don’t have a personal tie to the culture of origin, and just love the name, I would still make sure you’re pronouncing it correctly, know the meaning and current usage as well as past usage, so it can become a respectful reference.
I think there should be plenty of overlap between “classy and underused” and “ancient (=pre-Christian) and mythical”. Should be a fun search!
Loved the idea for nature/word names. Wanted to suggest August for a boy (or girl).