Hi Swistle!
My second daughter is due at the end of October. Her sister’s name is H@rper Je@n H@ll. My daughter and I both share my husband’s last name. H@rper’s middle name is from my maternal grandmother and my aunt (mother’s sister who passed away several years ago). This will most likely be our last child.
We have been settled on the name Arden for this baby for a little while now and both still love it. However, I am getting concerned that it is too close in sound to my nephew’s name, Ryden, who lives very close to us. My husband thinks I’m crazy and that it’s not too close and/or doesn’t matter. I’m probably just getting naming jitters as my due date approaches, but it has started to bother me some. So, I guess I’m looking for validation that these names aren’t too close and won’t bug me forever, though I’m sure nobody else can tell me that part for certainty. Some other names we both like are Paige, Audrey, Juliette, and Rosalie, with Paige and Audrey being the other 2 top names. The problem with Paige, though, is that I really prefer a multi-syllable first name with our last name. Some names I like that we can’t use or my husband has vetoed are Imogen, Elodie, Cameron, and Leighton.
Now to the problem of the middle name. My husband would like to give this baby girl the middle name Mary after his grandmother who passed away a couple years ago. I love the idea of giving this baby his grandmother’s name as a middle except that I really am not fond of the name Mary. To me, it is an intensely religious name and I have a hard time separating it from Mary, the mother of God, the Virgin Mary. I grew up catholic (though would not consider myself so any longer) and have a hard time not associating the name with anything else. My husband was not raised with any sort of religion and does not carry the same association. I think I really have issue with the idea and image of the Virgin Mary and what it implies about purity and ideals for girls/women today. I’ve been working on getting past this association, but I still can’t fully commit. I also like that both girls would have a great grandmother’s name as a middle. Some other middle name possibilities are Jane (my paternal grandmother’s middle name), Frances (maternal grandfather’s middle name (Francis) who passed away when my mom was a young girl), Paige, and Maeve (Paige and Maeve both just names we like). My husband really wants Mary as the middle but is willing to ultimately let me decide. Also, any names related to Mary, like Mae, just don’t seem like true honor names. Will this association just not be a big deal once she’s here and it is part of her name? I guess I’m hoping that by typing this all out and getting other’s opinions, I will get some kind of clarity.
Thanks for your help,
Rachel
Name update:
Hi! Thank you for posting my question and concerns regarding the middle name Mary for my daughter and to all those that responded. We named our daughter Arden Mary and I think her name is just beautiful! I am totally over any hang-ups I had with the name association and am so glad we chose to honor my husband’s grandmother. Her name fits her perfectly!
-Rachel
While I think the sound of Arden does have a lot in common with Ryden, I think it has just as much in common with Harper. If the sound similarities between Harper and Arden don’t bother you (I personally love the pair) I don’t think Arden and Ryden needs to bother you either. They’re so different stylistically, and I’d guess as cousins they won’t be said as a pair so often, the way siblings would.
As far as Mary, I’m with you in that I don’t think I could get on board with such a heavy dose of religiosity for a daughter, but I wonder if there’s an option where using Mary as half of the middle name would lighten the blow while maintaining the honor (Maryann, Mary Grace, Marisol) or using Marie or Maria which are equally “Mary” in other languages but might feel less “Mary” to your ex-Catholic ear. Did the grandmother to be honored have a middle name? For example if she were Mary Louise, could you use Marylou?
Or Rosemary? Arden Rosemary H@ll feels so right to me!
Rosemary would be adorable! I suggest Marie.
My daughter has the middle name Mary because of the Blessed Mother and honestly at this point it is just her name and doesn’t feel like an honor name at all (she is almost 5). Arden Mary is stunning and a lovely choice. I think it would also be such a kind gesture toward your husband as well.
Personally, I think Arden is closer in sound to Harper than Ryden. The shared “ar” sound is really dominate for me, while I didn’t even notice the repeated “den” ending until I had thought about it for a couple minutes.
I think you should let your husband use Mary. You got to use an honor name for your first daughter, so it only seems fair. Especially since Mary will only be in the middle position. It’s tucked away in a place where it’s unlikely to send any strong messages about religion to anyone. If you just can’t get on board, could you use the grandmothers middle name? I share a middle with my grandmother and always have felt it was a lovely link between us.
I wouldn’t use Ryden and Arden as sibling names but for cousins names it would depend. I wouldn’t use Arden if Ryden is close in age and they will spend lots of time together.
Paige works well with your last name and with Harper.
While I like Mary (even though I am lapsed Catholic), if you don’t like it select another middle name that honors your husbands family.
I agree with previous posters that it would be really nice to find some way to honor your husband’s family in the middle spot if you decide you can’t get on board with Mary. It might help to think of other famous Mary’s to see if you could see any of them as an inspiring role model for your daughter. I am thinking of Mary McLeod Bethune, but I am sure there are lots of them.
FWIW, Mary Arden was Shakespeare’s mother. So that’s a cool connection for Arden Mary!
I agree with most commenters that Arden isn’t too close to the cousin’s name. I liked the suggestion of Rosemary for the middle as well, might feel more like an honor name than other names connected to Mary because it contains the name itself.
I know you said the tweaks to Mary get it farther from honouring, and usually I’m in camp use-it-as-is, but that’s only where possible and to me, it sounds impossible. So another tweak idea is Merry? Same sound, she can say aloud “my middle name is Merry after my great-grandmother Mary”, but it takes you away from Mary in a delightful (pun intended) way? I love Arden Merry. Also love the idea of finding a Mary-name like Rosemary or Mary-Jane or Mary-Maeve.
And only you and your husband can evaluate Ryden & Arden. I agree Harper and Arden share just as much as Ryden. If it were me, considerations like whether Ryden gets Ry; whether Arden will be Ari or something else for your family; whether your siblings/in law are the type to be bothered – I’d inform them in a ‘we just realized our top name for baby is kinda close to our awesome nephew Ryden! Funny!’.
For what it’s worth, I went to high school with a girl named Merry and she went by Merry Beth. I also had a mentor during grad school whose name was Merrily.
I agree Arden and Ryden aren’t too close (particularly since names ending -den are pretty popular these days, so not weird they share that). I do find the two names very hard to say together, which might matter if the cousins will be together a lot. If so, I might be concerned that their similarity/difficulty of saying together would give rise to nicknames (like Ari). But I think my problem mostly is that I find Arden kind of hard to say, although I really think it’s a lovely name. I personally prefer Audrey, Juliette, or Rosalie, but obviously that’s subjective!
I think your objection to Mary is valid and should mean you guys don’t use that name. You only get to choose four total (two per kid), so why waste one on a name you’re uncomfortable with?! You stated in your letter you’re not one for diluted honor names, so to speak, so I’d find another honor name (maybe in husband’s family). What about the grandmother’s maiden names? I’m a big fan of family maiden names in the middle name position.
Good luck!
Arden Mary is perfect. You have great taste. Be confident! :)
I’m not Catholic or have Catholic baggage. Mary makes me think of Mary Had a Little Lamb, Miss Mary Mack, Mary Poppins, etc. It’s as classic as Jane, as simple as Alice, as cheerful as Joy.
H@rper Je@n & Arden Mary. Best possible combo!
Love the name Arden! Goes very well with Harper and I wouldn’t worry about it being similar to Ryder, seems different enough to me for a cousin!
As for the middle names, would something like Arden Mary-Jane work? That way you get to use 2 honour names with maybe taking away the religious connotation for you. If Mary totally doesn’t work for you then I love Jane as a standalone middle name! Harper Jean and Arden Jane (swoon)!
Mary is such a common English name that it only need hold the religious significance you yourself give it. My middle name is Marie, from my great grandmothers Mary and Maria, and I have zero problems carrying it, despite my staunch status as both a feminist and an atheist. I mean, the background is there, the history hard to miss, but even if that played into my grandmothers’ naming stories, it’s not part of mine. There’s such a preponderance of Mary’s that it isn’t simply a Biblical or religious name at this point.
I love Arden! Not too similar, and perfect with Harper. I also wonder if once your daughter had the name Mary that it would seem less like the holy mother’s name and more like hers. I’ve met at least one little Mary (named for her great grandma) and the religious connection never even occurred to me–just that it felt underused and delightful in this little girl. I do love the idea of Arden Mary-Jane though. Sooo cute. My second favorite from your list is Paige.
Other suggestions: Willow, Rowan, Quinn, Brooke.
My name is Arden. I am a big fan of it. I know it is becoming more popular now, but according to the SSA, when I was born, there were only 14 baby girls in the country with that name. I’ve met maybe 2 Ardens in my whole life and I still get tons of compliments on it.
I don’t think it sounds like Ryden at all. Not an issue in my mind.
I am not a huge fan of Arden Mary — because I actually get tripped up by the Mary Arden association that a previous poster noted. I LOVE the Rosemary suggestion, though. Especially with your last name.
I think Arden is a great name! I especially like it as a sister to Harper and cousin to Ryden. I don’t think it’s too similar at all.
As far as middle names go, I do think you should use one from your husband’s side of the family. I think Arden Mary H@ll sounds fine; for the sake of flow, I do prefer a three-syllable middle name, like Rosemary or Mary-Jane. As a Catholic, I don’t actually think of the Virgin Mary when I hear the name. I don’t think it’s “loaded” religiously or anything, especially since y’all have a family connection to it.
I think I’d be more bothered by the similarities of H@rper and Arden—the first syllables are so close. Ryden feels like a red herring, in a way! Have you tried saying Arden out loud numerous times with your husband? Try saying it with H@rper too, several times in a row.
Audrey seems like a lovely alternative; it is similar visually to Arden, and has some of the same sounds, but none shared with your older daughter’s name. It’s also an enduring classic, and very musical with your surname.
I’m also not at all bothered by Paige with your surname. Think of all the famous people with single syllable first and last names—Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Kate Moss, Lou Reed, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, James Joyce, Ann Rice… it definitely hasn’t held them back.
I think it’d be good to let your husband have that middle name, since Grandma Mary means so much to him. We did that with our daughter and although Rae wouldn’t be my own preference, Great-Aunt Rae means so much to him, and he let me pick our daughter’s first name. Mary has no religious overtones to me unless “sister” or “mother” is added.
Arden would work just fine with cousin Ryden to my ear. If you have to yell at one or the other, you could always yell full names. Unless Ryden’s middle is Harry, Gary, Terry, or Cary, you’ll be fine. ;)
I think that since you got to use the honor name from your family that you wanted to use with your older daughter you should let your husband use Mary. It is a classic name and Mary, Mother of Jesus was only one of the Mary’s in the bible. There are several. If you are worried about the virginal connotation, I wouldn’t be. Keep in mind that Mary and Joseph were married after Jesus was born and in all likelihood had more children. She was around 14 at the time Jesus was born so it isn’t odd that she would be a virgin at that stage. Mary Magdalene was decidedly not virginal. Arden and Harper are neither a style that I would have picked but I think they sound good together and I wouldn’t worry about Ryden unless you spend lots of time together. I think that once the baby is born the name Mary will lose most connotations except for the one with your daughter.
I love Arden!! How much more do you like Arden than Paige and Audrey? If you love it and just like the others I definitely don’t think Arden is similar enough to Ryden or Harper that you should be bothered. If you like all 3 almost equally then I can see using it’s similarity to those names against it and deciding on Audrey (since you don’t like Paige with your last name.) But if Arden is a strongly preferred name, I think you should stick with it. (It’s my favorite of the 3.)
As for Mary: I hear you. I was raised Catholic and now I am very anti organized religion. I also have a great grandmother, an aunt and a friend from college named Mary. Knowing them, I never associated the name too much with the virgin Mary. I do dislike what the virgin Mary represents, I just think that association is easily overwritten. I love honor names and think you should use the name of the person you most want to honor. It seems that to your husband that person is Mary. And since Harper has a family name from your side, I think it would be nice for your husband to chose someone this time. If you really can’t get passed the virgin Mary association I’d talk to him about if there is another way to honor Mary without using Mary or if there’s another person he would be excited to honor. Good luck.
Just piping in to say that I have a Catholic friend (not even ex-Catholic) who shares your aversion to the name Mary, and anything even vaguely Mary-adjacent. As much as I want to say you should let your husband have this, I think it’s important not to discount the complexity involved in people’s relationships to religion, and its totally fair if you need him to start brainstorming other names from his side of the family that he might like to use in the middle.
Honestly, there are so many variations of Mary that I feel like you could pick one you like and say you named your baby “for” her ggma without using Mary. The Jewish naming tradition is to pick some other name that starts with the same letter as their ancestor, and they say the baby is named “for” that relative rather than “after” her.
Another idea–name her Mary Arden, and just call her Arden. I have known a lot of people who solve an honorific that way.
Arden and Rylen don’t bother me at all.
What about Auden?
Similar to Arden, and Audrey too, but without the ‘ar’ sound of Harper.
Aubrey is another one! I quite like Harper and Aubrey together!
Arden and Ryden don’t sound too similar to me, maybe as sibling names, but definitely not too close for cousins.
Mary is a great name and I don’t automatically think of the Virgin Mary when I hear it. I think your husband should be able to use a name from his side of the family this time, especially if it’s the name of someone he was close to, like his Grandmother.
Good luck!
– Agree that Arden is not too close if you love it.
– I love Merry as a sound-alike alternative to Mary, I think it’s a charming middle name and still carries as much honor weight as you choose to give it. If you emphasize the connection and tell your daughter stories about Grandma Mary and so on it will feel special even with an alternate spelling. Same for Marie.
– I deliberately used honor names from my side of the family for both kids’ middles, because they got their last name from their father’s side. So personlly I think it would be fine to use an honor name from your side again, but obviously everyone has their own opinion on this.