My two sons lost their father when they were 5 and 12 respectively. The older one bears his father’s name, Richard. Both boys are now having their first child. My older son is having a girl and my younger son is having a boy. My younger son wants to name his son, Richard, after his father, which is also his brother’s name. My older son is angry with him because he feels he will have a second child and if he has a boy he would want it to be called Richard. Is there a wrong or right?
The reason this is such a tricky situation, I think, is that there is no wrong and no right per se, but there are nevertheless a lot of strong feelings about it. Familiar practices (such as a name being passed down through firstborn sons) may be misinterpreted as having rights or ownership or control, for example. A family may even choose to voluntarily defer to the current name-holder, strengthening the feeling that it must be done that way. And many people feel that names should not be duplicated among cousins, even though it used to be extremely common to do so.
I wish we could start with this understanding: that both sons may name children after their father, however they see fit, and that it is WONDERFUL that they both want to, and that it would be an almost heartbreakingly beautiful tribute if both of them named sons Richard. There wouldn’t be a dry eye in the house.
As things stand, instead of a beautiful tribute, we have the makings of a very ugly situation. Your first son would like to reserve his father’s name for a son he very well may never have—which would be fine, except that he also wants to prevent his brother from using the name. I suspect he is viewing the name as a possession, a single item that can only be handed down to one person as if it were a gold watch. The way he may be seeing it, his father gave the watch to him, and now he wants to give it to his own son; meanwhile his brother is trying to steal the watch to give it to HIS son. Your first son is angry at this perceived attempt at theft. He protests that he is very likely to have another child, which may very well be a boy, and so it is too early to grab the watch away from him and his descendants.
But that is not the way names work. Your first son keeps his name even if he gives it to his son, just as your sons’ father kept his name even after giving it to his son; and the name can also be given to both boys of the next generation. No one takes or steals the name away from anyone else; the name is duplicated, and shared, and is another set of bonds to hold a family together. It is sheer pleasure to look through a family tree and see a name winding its way through the generations and branches. This is the sort of imagery I wish families could use, rather than seeing honor names as grabbing precious possessions away from each other.
If your first son can’t be talked around to a different point of view, I don’t know how your second son can get around it. If your first son continues to see the name as a birthright that gives him possession and control, then even if your second son disagrees completely, it may not be worth the family fall-out. I think this would be a crying shame, especially if your first son never does have a son, and so their father is never honored. Your sons’ father shared his name with your first son; but he, and the memory of him, and the privilege of honoring him, belongs equally to both of them.
Swistle, that was so beautifully written! <3
I’m a vote for both getting to use the name Richard however they see fit. I hope your older son can come around on what a lovely honor it is and let go of his anger. I have numerous cousins and relatives with the same first names because my Italian family always named their children after the grandparents. My great grandmother had 11 children. There are a lot of Marias named after her. I have other cousins who share the name Rita, after their grandmother. It may be less common now, but certainly it is not uncommon for cousins to share a name.
I know a family with 5 cousins named Leonard!
I wholeheartedly agree.
I think the consternation comes about when two children in the same family will share both a first name and last name. I would imagine most people would recommend against siblings have the same first and last name and I think it is probably hard for older brother to see the difference between cousins (especially when the last names are the same). It would be best, I think for both brothers to extend some compassion and try to talk it out rationally:
“We both love Dad and want to honor him by naming our son (or future hypothetical son) after him. We agree that no one has the “right” to use it over the other – and we can both use dad’s name as the first name if we choose. But is there any sort of compromise that we would both be happy with that would distinguish the (hypothetical) children from one another. Perhaps different nicknames (Rich, Rickie, Rick, Rickie, Dick, Rico) perhaps we would both use Richard for a middle name. Perhaps we both use Richard as the first name, but refer to the children by their middle names. Maybe one of our wives likes a name better than Richard and would be happier using Richard as the middle name.” etc.
I feel like there is a lot of paths to a happy ending, but the stubbornness of both brothers is getting in the way.
I have two nephews born only 2 weeks apart who are both named for a family member, Theodore. One family chose to use it as a first name, one as a middle, but they both decided to be gracious about it. (They have the same surname, too.)
This was really beautiful. What a wonderful way to see naming and honoring the family.
Sometimes I wish Swistle could solve all disagreements (large and small). You give the best heartfelt advice. I hope both brothers read this, think about it, and then talk.
My son’s first name is my father’s first name, and his middle name is my mother’s maiden name. We call him by his middle name. While I would have been happy to call him by my father’s first name, my oldest brother is my father’s junior. Despite the fact that my brother was 40 and not married when my son was born, I wanted him to be able to name a son after himself (and my father).
My brother, now 62, never did marry, so I’m glad that I named my son after my father (and my sister did the exact same with her son, who is also called by his middle name).
Maybe the granddaughter could have Richard as a middle name?
This letter made me cry. These brothers are bonded over their hurt in losing their father, and their ongoing love for him, yet that is the very thing threatening to drive them apart. If that happens, it would be a tragedy for the family- and one that would deeply distress their father, if he knew what was happening.
I agree 100% with Swistle. Hopefully, both sons will get to pass down Richard, without any heard feelings.
I’ll point out that Richard has multiple nicknames, so there is no reason to be concerned with confusion about cousins both named Richard.
If they simply can’t agree on the idea that they can both use Richard, there are also options. One son (unfortunately this is probably the younger son) could use Richard as a middle name. He could also use his dad’s middle name as a first name for a son.
Why should the younger son have to use the name as a middle name? Just because he’s second born? That makes no sense.
I don’t think she meant because he’s the second born, I think she meant because he himself is not also named Richard.
Because it seemed like a decent compromise. Younger brother could still use the name & honor his father with less damage to his relationship with older brother. Having younger brother suggest the older use Richard as a middle would likely not alleviate the current situation.
Except the older son has no son, and may never have one. I say, honor the father with the boy that is here, and figure out the nicknames if and when it becomes an issue.
Wonderful response to a difficult question! I would concur that to have two Richards in the same generation in this circumstance would be a lovely thing, and not a problem. And as others have mentioned, Richard is also a name with many great nickname options if they do want more separation between the names.
“…the privilege of honoring [their father] belongs equally to both of them.” EXACTLY. Such great advice, Swistle. Spread the love!
#Swistle2016! ;)
Both boys have equal rights to use the name as a first name. It is actually not about a right; hey’re simply honoring Grandpa. There are lots of families with multiple cousins with the same name, usually honoring grandparents. Not to be flip, but watch My Big Fat Greek wedding, with a bunch of male and female cousins named Nicky.
Swistle, your reply was just stunningly perfect.
I really hope the family can find a solution that both brothers can endorse whole heartedly. That being said, I can’t imagine how I would feel in their situation and when all’s said and done to never actually use Richard as a name (if the older brother does not have a boy and the younger brother does not get to use Richard for any child either). As many people and Swistle pointed out, cousins used to share names so frequently, and with the options (Richard nicknames, using middle names, using initials), there’s just so many ways to make it work, if the brothers are open to compromise.
Beautifully stated, Swistle. I haven’t read the other comments, but my thoughts are that since the first son feels so strongly about this, it would be best for the entire family if the second son and his wife choose a different name with Richard as the middle name. Of if they like his father’s middle name, they might switch the name around, so that, for example, Richard John becomes John Richard.
We have several grownchildren. Our second son has his father’s name David as his middle name. Before he was even married, this son made it known that he hoped to have a son someday and would name him David. He asked his siblings not to name a son David. No one did — and there were several grandsons born, including one with David as his middle name. When that baby boy was about to be born and named, I asked the son if he would mind if his sister used David as her baby boy’s middle name. He said he had no objection as long as it wasn’t the first name. Eventually this son married and now has three sons, the first of them being called David.
If neither son in the situation here were named Richard, then I think the name would be equally open to both sons. But because the older son has Richard as his name, I think he should get priority to use it. I also think it would be special for the younger son to use Richard as his son’s middle name — special for him and his son and also a way to carry on the name for sure.
I kind of have to disagree in a way. I have a younger sister, however only a year apart, and our father passed away when we were kids. Now, had I been a son and named after my father, I would feel that I had a right to the name, not so much because it was our fathers name passed down to me, but because it is now in fact my name, and I would want to name my first born son after myself as my father had done. Perhaps in their family, the younger one being so much younger, feels shafted in that he did not get as much time with his father before he passed as the older brother did, and feels the need to memorialize him in order to feel closer to him. I suspect that they have had problems surrounding this issue before (trying to lay claim to being closer with him, having more in common, etc.) due to the age difference. The age difference also brings to mind that perhaps because the older son is 7 years older than his brother, and they are both having their firstborn that the eldest got a later start and may not have another child. I think there needs to be a thoughtful discussion between the brothers as to would they rather cause a rift and have their father honored, or have no rift but perhaps never getting to use the name.
Or it could be that the younger son got an earlier start — perhaps being in his mid-20s, while his older brother is only in his early 30s — and/or with a younger wife — with plenty of time to have more children.
This is not an issue that I would cause a rift in the family over – though I imagine if I lost my father at a young age maybe I would have much stronger feelings about it.
It sounds to me like the grandmother wants to try to make peace between sons on this issue but I wonder if that is possible. Did the soon-to-be-fathers ask their mother to make decision or help resolve the issue. One or both may not welcome her input especially if one perceives she is not coming down on his side.
I also think what may work in this case depends on the relationship between the brothers beyond this issue. It appears there might be other strains there because I know, in many family, any of the siblings would have given up a name if asked to. My sister had the first grandchild and used a feminine version of my Dad’s name for her daughter. We all respected that choice and no one else used the name. I used my Dad’s middle name for my son’s middle which just happened to be my brother’s first name. He was fine with that and also used it for his son’s middle name. When everyone gets along, it usually works out without anger
If I was the mother in this case, I would go to both sons separately and asked if trying to claim first or sole rights to the name is worth the potential damage to the relationship with his brother. I would remind them there are other ways to honor their father in a name (perhaps focusing on his occupation, favorite activities, the name of a person he admired, etc).
I have two cousins who are both named Danny, both the same age, their mothers are sisters (my dad’s step-sisters). They seldom see each other, but when they do, their shared name is a bond that they love.
There’s a reason that Richard, Henry, Elizabeth, Catherine, Margaret, John, and lots of other names have so many and varied nicknames. Because they were used over and over within families and villages.
I hope these brothers can be generous and loving with each other over this desire to give a tribute to their father.
I think that Swistle responded so wisely and beautifully that I really hope the original letter writer shares this word for word with her sons.
Please come back and provide us with an update!
I would normally say both sons have equal rights to the father’s name, but in this case, I agree with other commenters who have pointed out that it’s also the oldest son’s name. Can we not have first run rights on our own names?
I’d love to name my child after my dad, but since my dad’s name is also my brother’s name, I’m running it by my brother first. I think he’d like to keep it for a son of his own, and I think that’s reasonable and fair. I’ll likely use it as a middle name to honor them both!
It always surprises me when I see arguments about this because I grew up with a lot of cousins who had the same exact name. At one point in our family, we had five different John F_innegans! We used to call them John V, or John B, or John Edward, or whatever. My brother has always gone by her first and middle name with her family because that’s what everyone did, since so many girls in her large Irish Catholic family were named Mary. I think it’s confusing now because there are so many more options for names, so many more names are considered acceptable. I am of the opinion that just because a name is yours, I mean, because it’s your name, it certainly doesn’t mean you are the sole owner and proprietor of that name. It feels crazy to me, that someone would be so possessive of a name that they might very well NEVER use that they would not allow someone else to use it to pay tribute to their deceased father. I hope the writer gives her sons your wonderful advice, Swistle, and that it gets worked out.
My father died when my older brother and I were 16 and 15. I named my son after my father (first name), even though it is also my brother’s name (though he goes by his middle name). I did ask his permission first, and he was gracious. He had no problem with it. If he ever has a son and names it the same name (naming his baby after himself and our father), I would be delighted. What a special thing for cousins to share and what a nice tribute to our father. I actually hope it happens!!
This line from Swistle says it all really: I think this would be a crying shame, especially if your first son never does have a son, and so their father is never honored.
Wouldn’t that be worse? To save a name up for a potential baby that may never come along?
That’s the problem with naming kids after dad, you just open a huge can of worms.
For me, I’d use a variant of Richard, or I’d use Richard as a middle name (for either son). Stop the Jr thing before it gets out of hand with the III. With Richard as a middle both kids can use it.
I think the second son absolutely should use the first name. It’s possible I’d feel differently if the father was alive, but as it stands, they both should be able to honor him as they see fit. I do think there are a couple of ways to soften the decision: I’d make sure to use a different middle name, and I’d let the older brother choose his preferred form of the name. If he wants to call his son Little Richie, then Richie is off the table. That gives the older brother back some of the control, but assures the father will be honored no matter what.