Hi Swistle,
My husband and I are due with our first child, a girl, on Jan 31. Our last name is Chenn, but with “a” instead of an “e”.
She won’t have a middle name.
My husband and I are partial to gender neutral names and have narrowed our choices down to Alexis and Riley. Riley was our top choice, but I’m worried that it doesn’t “age well” in the sense that it sounds too childlike (can I picture a lawyer named Riley or a Grandma Riley)? Alexis (nn Lexi) recently came into the picture but I’m hesitant because the possessive form of the name (Alexis’ or Alexis’s) is inconsistent and I find that slightly annoying. I also know two people with that name who I would not want my daughter to emulate.
Other names we have on our list include Quinn, Skyler, and Casey. I also love the name Mia (but he hates it) and he likes the name Caitlin (but I’ve vetoed because: 1. there are too many ways to spell it and I don’t want her to go through life spelling her name for everyone, and 2. It’s traditionally pronounced more like “Kath-leen” in Gaelic so I would be intentionally pronouncing it wrong by giving her that name).
What do you think? Is Riley too “kiddish” and are my qualms about Alexis unreasonable? Do you have any other suggestions?
Thank you!
I like putting names through a series of tests, too. I do the careers test: does the name work on a lawyer? a teacher? a clerk? a carpenter? I also like the stages-of-life test: does the name work on a young child? a young adult? a middle-aged adult? an older adult? And I like the “make sure you’re not imagining a celebrity” test (aka the “Blake Lively looks wonderful in everything but that doesn’t mean the rest of us will” test): picture the name on an ordinary child; on a unpopular teenager with bad skin and unflattering clothes; on a plump, plain, glasses-wearing adult; etc.
Here is where the tests fall short: because name fashions come and go, and because they shift so much from generation to generation, a name can fail dramatically if you run the test while you’re pregnant, even though the name would later on have passed the test easily. When people of approximately my age think about “old man/lady” names, we might think of Mildred, Ethel, Howard, Donald. But the parents who used those names for their babies back in, say, 1920, were not thinking to themselves, “I love this name, and it will work GREAT on an old person.” If you’d asked them at the time to imagine a Grandma Ethel, it would have been difficult. Ethel is a swinging young person, vibrant and cheeky! But 90 years later, people my age are saying “Ethel? That’s an old lady name!” (and are on the verge of finding our grandchildren given it as a charming vintage revival).
Riley is an excellent example of the issue. I know NO ONE my age named Riley, nor anyone my parents’ age named Riley, nor anyone my grandparents’ age named Riley, nor anyone my great-grandparents’ age named Riley. I only know children named Riley. This makes sense when you look at how many girls have been named Riley over the years, going back in roughly generation-sized chunks:
1893: –
1923: 5
1953: –
1983: 36
2013: 4,902 (plus another 2,878 named Rylee, 1,709 named Ryleigh, 839 named Rylie, etc.)
So picturing a Grandma Riley does indeed feel ridiculous: if those 5 in 1923 are not a recording error (in that same year I see 41 baby boys named Elizabeth and 43 baby girls named David), maybe a few of us know an elderly woman named Riley—but most of us have never encountered one. But will it seem ridiculous when all of today’s child-aged Rileys are grandparent-aged? Will the children of that era say, “Wow, sure seems weird to have a GRANDMOTHER named Riley!” Of course not! Fast-forward 80 years from now and parents will be making baby name lists and one of them will say “How about Riley, after my grandmother?” and the other one will say “No way, Riley is SUCH an old-person name. Maybe as a middle.”
Where was I? Oh, yes: I was saying that I would not be very concerned about a currently-popular name fitting an older person. If you were to suggest a name such as Boopsie because you’d always thought that was an adorable name for a baby, I might gently remind you that babies are babies for only a very short time, and after that they need names that work in childhood and adulthood. If you were wondering if I could picture a lawyer named Boopsie, I would have to admit it was a stretch. But if you are looking at the names popular for this generation of babies, and you are feeling concerned because they seem to fit young children but not lawyers or senior citizens, then I say the tests are only helpful to a certain extent. The name Riley was the 45th most popular girl name in the United States in 2013, and that doesn’t even count all the other popular spellings; the name will age along with everyone who has it, just as Ethel has, just as Barbara has, just as Jennifer has.
Speaking of the other popular spellings, however, I’d say Riley is up there with Caitlin in terms of spelling issues. Just looking at the spellings given to 100 or more baby girls in 2013, we have:
Riley (4,902)
Rylee (2,878)
Ryleigh (1,709)
Rylie (839)
Rileigh (185)
Rilee (130)
Reilly (102)
If you wanted to reconsider Caitlin, but the pronunciation issue bothers you, there are two sources for the name. One is the Gaelic, which, as you say, was originally pronounced more like kat-LEEN. The other is a classic combination source such as Maryanne and Annemarie: Kate + Lynn is Katelyn, and is pronounced as you’d prefer, with no “pronouncing it wrong” issue.
On to Alexis. The issue of making a possessive or plural out of a name ending in S is one of the reasons I hesitate over using such names myself, because errors of that sort me want to pull out my teeth. I know I’ve told this story before, but when I worked in a daycare, a co-worker once made baby James’s name possessive by writing “Jame’s,” and I have never quite recovered. And recently my high-school-aged son told me after I proofread his paper that his English teacher told him it is now considered correct to make a name ending in S possessive by just adding an apostrophe; if this is true, and not just a teenager refusing to admit he’s wrong, I will be driven crazy not only by people getting it wrong but also by having to adjust to a new rule.
BUT: this is why I say every name has a set of issues and it’s a good idea to find the ones that drive you less crazy. In my case, a name ending in S is likely to produce decades of irritation; for someone else, only decades of shrugging, because it isn’t one of their hair-tear issues. If the people getting the possessive wrong is only slightly annoying, then it may be something you chalk up to being part of the package deal of the name, and nothing more serious than that. But if seeing Alexis’ and, heaven help us, Alexi’s, will make you grind your teeth, then I think that’s a legitimate reason to be concerned about using the name. Adding in two people named Alexis who are not positive associations, you may have a name you like very much but that isn’t a good fit for your family.
If you’d like the name Riley, but would like to reduce issues of popularity and spelling, I suggest Rory.
I think Avery might be a good fit for you. It’s a unisex name, but it doesn’t seem as youthful as Riley. I can more easily picture a lawyer named Avery.
Or Ellis. It fits so nicely with the Ella/Isabella sound (and has the nickname Ellie if she wants something more decisively feminine), but is much less common and much more unisex.
Or Hollis. It has the nickname Holly, if she wants it.
Devany is a name I’ve heard only once on an actual child, and it was a pleasant surprise.
Or Hadley.
Or Teagan.
Name update!
Hi Swistle!
Thank you for responding to my email and assuaging my fears about names not aging well. Baby girl Riley was born on Feb 1, 2015. We knew that we had the right name for her when she weathered 35+ hours of labor like a spunky little champ.
I’ve attached a picture! Thanks again for your help!
Mama Chenn
There’s a lawyer named Riley on the tv show Baby Daddy. Though I was surprised at her name because she’s twentysomething and it seems to me a kid name currently. Annnd then I remembered she’s a fictional character and didn’t actually have parents naming her 25 years ago.
The upcoming Pixar movie’s main character is a young girl named Riley, and I really had to applaud them on their thoroughness. I respect consistency in these matters ;)
Hello! As a Caitlin with the traditional spelling I thought I’d post my experience with the name. Yes their are a million ways to spell it but I’ve always prided the fact that I spell it the original way. And there will always be people who spell it wrong which I’m used to but it doesn’t bother me. I think it’s a beautiful name and I love the way I spell it! It’s always a fun conversation when running into other “Caitlyn” “Katelyn” or “Caytlen”s to see all the possible spellings. My issue with the name is of its popularity, not its spelling variations.
What about Alexa? You can still call her Lexi or Alex but no s at the end.
Gosh, Swistle, your kids & friends must have just awesome conversations with you. So often when I read your response to and analysis of a query, I end up both chuckling and being willing to look at things more deeply or from other angles. It’s always worth waiting for another installment.
My best friend growing up was nn Casey and she always said she’d switch to Cassandra after high school, for a more grown-up name. She’s been solely Cassandra for a few years now and it seems to be working nicely!
Personally though, I’d have to second Swistle’s suggestion of Rory. I just love it!
The spelling challenge with Riley may bother you more than the aging – I think it’s a bit more common/expected and not especially cutesy, so it should age fairly well!
Love the suggestions of Rory and Alexa! And Hadley and Teagan. Some others you might wanna consider: Tamsin, Linden or Briony, maybe Carys or Reagan or Freya? I’m a fan of the less frilly, nearly unisex girls’ name category with a daughter named Afton =)
Good luck! Can’t wait to see what you pick!
I also really like Rory. Or I wonder if you’d like Joey, short for Josephine? (Or maybe Jocelyn might fit your husband’s taste…but then you get back into spelling variation issues).
Quinn seems like a lot of N with your last name. I don’t think Riley will seem like a little kid name in 30 years, but if its keeping you from loving the name now maybe you shouldn’t dismiss it entirely. And it does seem like you are someone who would be especially bothered by seeing her child’s name misspelled (or mis-punctuated). Have you thought about Cleo?
Great post, Swistle! And I agree completely on the Riley/Ethel comparison. And, oh, the Blake Lively rule, too!
Also, love the possibility of Rory if you’re after something more distinctive.
how about Aurora, nickname Rory? It seems more grown up, and gives you the A from Alexis with a nickname that resembles Riley.
Riley feels more like a boy’s name to me. Which is fine if unisex is what you’re looking for! Other short, surname-ish, not-super-frilly ideas:
Harper
Zoe
Taylor
Maya
Sydney
Bailey
Paige
Hazel
Stacy (or Tracy–or Macy, which I don’t love but is the most popular of the 3, apparently!)
I think Aurora/goes by Rory (possibly until she’s running for Congress, publishing scientific papers, etc) is an excellent notion, and it goes particularly well with the last name in both scenarios! A commenter above mentioned that Quinn doesn’t flow as well with the last name, which I agree with and hadn’t initially noticed.
I love Riley. I’m also quite fond of Caitlin. The difference I see between the two names having many spellings is that Riley feels like the RIGHT and MAIN spelling of the name, with others being parents who wanted the name to look a certain way or be unique or whatever. Katelyn and Caitlin feel so similar to me that I don’t have any judgement on who uses which spelling and where/when/how the spellings originated. I understand it has a different gaelic pronunciation, but I think that is a mild issue assuming you are living in America where I think most people will pronounce it phonetically. I happen to live in an area with a good number of Irish (ish) people and Irish names are crazy popular, including names with pronunciations that are not phonetic to Americans (Like Aine or Siobhan) and I’ve yet to meet a Caitlin pronounced more like Katleen. (my oldest is in 5th grade))
In either case, I find that I don’t mind spelling a name at all, but I am irked at people who don’t pronounce names correctly (I make big exceptions for anyone who has a true accent and/or speaks a language in addition to English) I would think that Riley will rarely get pronounced incorrectly.
Bravo, Swistle! Hitting it out of the park again in terms of advice.
To the letter writer: I think Swistle’s point about spelling and Riley is a good one. If Caitlin bothers you for that reason, Riley will too. You’re probably just more familiar with the pitfalls of Caitlin and spelling because the name has been popular longer and you’re more familiar with the variants. Riley has just as many. As the years go by, they will disperse and Rylee/Ryleigh/Riley/Rilee will become as familiar as Caitlin/Kaitlin/Caitlyn/Katelyn.
I do think Katelyn is a good suggestion though. It’s completely phonetic and has a different root than Caitlin. But, yes, you and she will have to spell it over and over.
As an alternate to Alexis (which I think should be ruled out based on your concerns) what about Alexa?
And finally– if a name aging well is a very serious concern for you, can I suggest a revisiting of the classics? They’re all much less common than they were we were kids, but none of them have a stigma of a certain age group or time on them. They work for babies, teens, adults, grandmas…And will for a very long time to come. Many of them also have more modern nicknames. Some ideas:
Alexandra
Elizabeth
Sarah/Sara
Katherine/Catherine
Frances
Emily
Emma
Julia
Caroline
Laura
Rachel
Rebecca
Anna
Amelia (Mia could be a nickname, if you could talk your husband into it)
Kate
A lot of these are much more feminine than the names on your list– but the fact that you like Mia and your husband doesn’t makes me wonder who the preference for the unisex names is coming from? Maybe you can find a solution by really focusing on what, stylistically, attracts each of you to a name.
Please do update us!
I agree Riley will age fine with this generation. If it’s your top choice and that’s your only qualm, I’d go with it. Just as an aside, I actually know a grandmother named Riley (or a name that sounds like Riley. She’s from Finland and it’s probably spelled differently).
As for Alexis, it seems to have two strikes agains it with the bad associations and the punctuation issue.
From your second string, I think Quinn, Skyler, and Casey would all be good choices for you. I am partial to Quinn.
I have a student in my (university-level) class whose name is Shelby- and I really love it. Unisex, but usable for almost anyone. I would encourage you to add it to the think about pile.
My paternal grandfather (born in 1888) was named Russell Riley. So Riley does translate back into the “olden days”, and had I had children, I would have considered it for either a boy or girl. I always thought it was a pretty cool name for a grandpa (not so much with my grandmother – Ida Luellen)!
I am a 30 year old named Riley!! It suits me well, if I do say so myself. I get tonnes of compliments from people of all ages and I didn’t feel weird at all introducing myself when I worked at a fancy shmancy downtown law firm for 3 years. No one even blinked (though a few people later told me they expected a boy when they read my resume).
I know everyone gets their panties in a bunch about spelling but no matter how you spell your name you’re going to be asked to spell it. I’m a “standard” spelled Christine and I spell it out whenever I speak with someone for any sort of intake whether it’s medical/financial/whatever. And my last name is basically Harris with a different first letter and I spell that every time all the time too. I just think as people expect names to have many variant spellings they just ask you to spell your name every single time and that’s fine.
I have a hard time imagining an adult woman Riley – but again, that’s because it wasn’t really being used until recently all the Rileys of her generation will be just fine.
Good luck!
Yep. She will be asked to spell her name no matter what, and even with a common name with a common spelling, people will still get it wrong. One year, every Rebecca in my high school yearbook was spelled “Rebekah” – not, as far as I know, the correct spelling for ANY of us. Unless you’re giving your kid a name that both has multiple possible spellings and maybe half a dozen unnecessary letters, she’s probably not going to have to correct people any more than everybody else will all the time anyway.
As a person with what was likely “a little girl’s name” in the 70s and 80s, I can say it hasn’t been a problem for me and hasn’t seemed to a problem for the other people named Heidi either. I’ve noticed Professor, Doctor and other various professional sorts with my name. Like Ethel, the name has aged along with us.
As for the names ending in -s (and both my brother and my son’s name end in -s), I have always read and understood it to be Alexis’s and Elias’s and so one. The only exception is Jesus, as apparently Jesus’ is considered a correct possessive form, otherwise only an apostrophe is plural possessive. “The tables’ flowers need to be removed and put in Alexis’s car.”
In Australia where we use British not American English it is correct to place the possessive apostrophe after the s without adding another (James’ book). Adding a second s is considered an illiteracy in written form but is often done when speaking (Jameses book).
I guess the reason Americans write Jesus’ is because the King James Version of the bible uses the English rule and it has been misunderstood as an exception.
So your son is not being lazy but is using correct English as I know it – I wonder what the American ‘rule’ is? Perhaps you have it incorrect Swistle???
For what it’s worth, I can’t imagine Riley on a older lady. However, as Swistle mentioned, that was probably the case with most names at some point. I do know many more boys named Riley and would think that would be annoying for a girl growing up. The previous commenter saying people expected a boy to show up when they saw her resume only solidified this. I think there’s a find line between unisex and unisex-leaning-female or unisex-leaning-male. I’d put Riley in the latter category. So, for that reason, plus all the many spelling variations (I know a little girl named Reilly), I would choose something else, based on your preferences. Alexis sounds more adult to me than Riley, and Alexa would eliminate the possessiveness issue, as mentioned.
Maybe you’d like:
Navy
Ellis or Ellison
Kendall
Laine/Lane
Yardley
Sutton
Riley is currently used more often for girls than for boys, though it does remain quite unisex. In 2013:
Riley: 4,902 F; 2,531 M
Rylee: 2,878 F; 209 M
Ryleigh: 1,709 F; 26 M
Rylie: 839 F; 26 M
Rileigh: 185 F; – M
Rilee: 130 F; 17 M
Reilly: 102 F; 113 M
Ryley: 96 F; 97 M
For a total that year of 10,841 new baby girls and 3,019 new baby boys, if I’ve got the math right.
Wow, I knew the numbers for Riley, etc were high but I didn’t know they were THAT high. It’s a top 10 name when all the spellings are combined– more popular than Elizabeth or Madison (ignoring their alt spellings, which are more minor).
Another vote for Alexa or Alexandra instead of Alexis. I don’t mind the possessive after an S (Swistle, your son’s teacher is wrong – it would still be Alexis’s object), but find the combo of consonants X, S and CH in a row very harsh. Also why I wouldn’t recommend Quinn – the single syllable first and last with nearly the same beginning and ending sounds is harsh to my ears.
Riley I think is quite nice with your last name. You would just have to be comfortable with it being a modern name vs a more traditional name. It’s becoming common enough now, that I don’t see an issue with it aging but it may be timestamped.
I also like Casey from your list (though a bit dated), and Avery, Hadley and Teagan from Swistle’s. I’ll add Delaney, which is similar to Devany but a bit more common and lends itself to nicknames such as Della, DeeDee or Laney which gives her flexibility as she ages.
Swistle, you are killin’ it with the fake hypothetical names lately! Boopsie…
…I think my dog has a new nickname.
My name is Devanie and I like it quite well. I’m 43, but I also know a Devanie who is 9 years old.
I know a 70-something Riley and a 20-something Riley. Both are men. Really cool, laid-back, manly men.
Then there is an eight-year-old Riley in my kids’ art class. She’s a pixie-looking little thing with the quietest of voices.
After knowing the two adult Riley’s, her name seems ill-fitting…like it ought to have been Ilara or Mila or Deirdre or some other dainty and charming moniker.
Best wishes on finding the perfect title for your lovely daughter!
I agree that the spelling of Riley is just as problematic as Caitlin, if not more so. However, lots of names (even classic names) have some variation in spelling & all those people seem to manage fine. (John/Jon, Katherine/Catherine, Elizabeth/Elisabeth, etc).
The possessive form of Alexis also doesn’t seem like a huge issue. We use possessive names in speech often, but how often will it really come up in daily life? If it really bothers you, have you considered something like Alexa? No possessive issues & perhaps it’s enough of a change to lessen the negative associations you have with Alexis.
FWIW, the rule is to add apostrophe-s to names where the S ending is voiced (ie; James’s). You only add the apostrophe in names where the ending S is not voiced (ie; Descartes’ ). So, Swistle’s son was technically correct.
I love one of the commenters’ suggestion: Briony. It sounds like Riley but much less popular – though not really gender neutral. Briony Ch@nn seems perfect to me.
I like Swistle’s idea of Avery, too! Avery Ch@nn. Lovely!
Congrats and good luck!
Swistle nailed it–Riley will age fine, just like Mildred and Barbara and Jennifer all have, and just like (unbelievably) Jaden and Ryker and Madison and Kylie all will. To me, Riley feels similar to both Ryan and Hayley, and all of the above feel a bit more mature and substantial than, for example, Kylie or Miley or Kaley (even though all are nice).
To me, the spelling “problem” really doesn’t register as a problem with any name! We live in a time of diversity. Of the names I hear in my daily life, I probably only feel confident that I know how to spell 50% of them–the others are variant spellings, come from other cultures, or are just parental creations. Even if you named your daughter Jessica, people would still occasionally ask her to clarify whether it’s Jessica or Jessika or Jesicah or Yesica; she would also meet people who had never heard the name Jessica before. My name is Shannon, and any time someone is writing it down for me (like at the DMV), I am asked to spell it. I can literally think of no name that everyone in my neighborhood would automatically know to spell the same way. Riley and Caitlin are both about as standard as it gets–I don’t think your daughter will mind spouting off the spelling every once in a while (or even once a day).
I think if I were you, I’d feel the same way about the pronunciation of Caitlin–that it would feel inauthentic not to pronounce it “Kathleen,” just like it would be silly to name a daughter Siobhan and call her “See-oh-bun.” So I’d do one of two things: (1) name her Caitlin, call her “Katelynn,” and remind myself daily that as a native English-speaker I was actually calling her what Caitlin should be phonetically in English; or (2) tweak the spelling in ANY way (Kaitlin, Catelynn, Katelyn, Katelynn, etc.) to clarify that I wasn’t going for the Gaelic anyway. I think Caitlin is quite a sweet name, and every Caitlin I’ve met (all American, all since the 80s, when I was born) has pronounced her name Katelynn, so I think it’s okay just to think of it as a derivation! (Actually, one Caitlin had an Irish mother who called her Kath, but the rest of the world–including her father and sibling–called her Katelynn or Katie.)
In case anyone is interested, major professional writing styles have different rules for the possessive form of singular, proper nouns ending in “s.” For example, AP Style just adds an apostrophe (Alexis’) and Chicago Style adds an apostrophe + s (Alexis’s).
So basically, everyone is right -depending on which style you’re following. Which is probably of little comfort to the letter writer…
Anyway, I personally love Alexis – the nickname Alex is great (plus, using it would eliminate the annoying apostrophe “s” issue). Quinn is also a favorite.
I think Ellis will drive you nuts with the ends-in-S problem just as Alexis will, but may I suggest Ellery? It has the same sounds as Riley, plus the 3 syllables sound great with a no-middle-1-syllable last name.
I also like:
Delaney
Alexa
My husband’s name ends in “s”, and I am really strict about grammar and spelling, and yet for whatever reason I’m not especially troubled by the possessive thing. I might feel differently if it was a child of mine, but when I realized I wasn’t sure what protocol was, I looked it up, found that it’s a grey area, and just decided on one to use myself – using Alexis as an example, I chose “Alexis’s” rather than “Alexis'”, but I don’t really care what others do with it, so long as they don’t write it as “Alexi’s”, which would drive me absolutely insane.
Swistle is spot-on when she says “every name has a set of issues and it’s a good idea to find the ones that drive you less crazy”. Wise words!
Also I agree that Riley is likely to require about as much spelling-out-loud as Caitlin, and with a previous commenter who said that Quinn Chenn seems like a lot of “N” (I’d add that it feels stilted).
Or Taegan! Tae pronounced like Tay.
I grew up in the generation of Bambi, Brandy, and Candy as given names, not to mention the “preppy” fad which brought us nicknames like Pinky, Bunny, and Muffy. I think Riley will age just fine.
(I do love Alexa, though.)
a) I personally know a Riley who is a lawyer, and he’s got to be mid-fifties by now.
B) people are jumping on the Rory bandwagon. I know a male Rory my age (36) and a cute little girl Rori (2) and maybe a few in between, but it’s such a hard name to pronounce for me with the snuggled Rs. Like the Rural Juror.
instead of Alex, what about the name Alix? It is the French equivalent of Alice.
I like Skylar from your list too. Alexa is a lovely compromise if you are worried about the whole S thing and the it feels more grown up than Riley to me.
I’d like to suggest the name Elliot. I really like it on a girl, it has the nicknames Ellie or Lottie, and sounds great with your last name. Elliot Chenn. You could always spell it Elliotte for a more feminine look and feel too.
Good luck!
Unisex and easy to spell names? I love them!
Cameron; Jordan; Morgan; Tyler; Taylor; Robin (one of my favorites); Haven; Hadley; Jess; Teagan; Honor…
I only know Caitlins who pronounce their name Kate-Lynn, the Irish people I know and to whom I am related say Kathleen Kat-leen because they don’t really pronounce the TH and they say Caitlin Kate-Lynn. So I wouldn’t have a problem with using Caitlin, I think it’s pretty and sweet but not necessarily gender neutral. Casey is spelled just like it sounds and I think it works through different stages of life. What about Aubrey? I think lately it’s been used more for girls but it’s also used for boys. Best of luck with your sweet baby!
How about elmer? Unisex similar to Riley.
Lonnie?
Gale?