Hi Swistle,
I’m a long time reader of your blog and planned to write in for help with my daughter, but ended up not needing it – because of you! I was introduced to her name (Carys) on your blog about a month before I got pregnant. It tugged at my heart and, by some miracle, DH liked it too. Even after saying it a million times over the last 3 years, I still feel a little jolt of excitement every time. And the name fits her perfectly – she’s spunky, frills-free, and beautiful inside and out (so far, anyway). It’s hard to compete with all that!
I think I need you this time. I’m having a BOY and am due in May. I know that’s a long way off, but boy names are impossible and I need time to “try on” all of the finalists for a little while. This is definitely our last planned child.
First, IF we can’t come up with anything else, he will likely be named Rich@rd J0$eph 0$term@n, 4th (sounds like Austermun). It’s a strong name, but there are problems with it. Most importantly, I’ve hated the name Richard since I met my first one at age 8. I’ve also known more Richards than any other name. DH goes by Eric (thankfully!) because his mom didn’t like it either and he’s always been annoyed by the disconnect between the names. Upon finding out his real name, EVERYONE asks why he goes by Eric (it’s a complete coincidence that they have the same root). Thus, he refuses to do the same to his son. I proposed we call him Joseph, but DH doesn’t like it. So, we’re left with RJ, which DH and MIL think sounds “down country” or whatever. DH doesn’t have strong feelings about using the name as he barely feels like it’s actually his name, but I’m sure we’ll get some pressure from FIL once we tell him it’s a boy (DH is the ONLY boy in his generation on either side of his family).
Because I’m a name nerd, I presented DH with a list of almost 200 names that I would be willing to consider, which I’d narrowed down from the 2013 SSA file of names used at least 5 times. DH eliminated more than half right away, including several of my favorites (Aidric, Clark, Cedric, Dashiell, Everett, Wesley) and then I eliminated more that I didn’t actually want to consider and we are left with a list of possible new favorites (at least for me and he hasn’t objected). It seems, however, that I have some sort of issue with each name…
Miles: it’s a distance measurement and I have a FB friend with an infant son named Miles – seems trendy
Theodore (Theo): not crazy about the meaning – we aren’t all that religious, also seems trendy
Alexander (I want to call him Alec, DH prefers Alex): the polar opposite of popularity and nn potential from Carys, which seems unbalanced
Elliot: seems trendy and Carys’ best friend at daycare has a little brother named Elliot. I’m not friendly with her mom, but it seems weird – although this leads to a cute story about Carys saying for a long time that she wanted her own Elliot
James (James): again, the polar opposite on popularity from Carys
Zachary: there are a couple in Carys’ classroom
Calvin (sometimes Cal): not sure Calvin 0$term@n has good flow, don’t like that it ends with -n
Evan: not sure it flows with 0$term@n, and I know a few little ones
Russell (sometimes Russ): reminds me of Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, though not really in a bad way (I thought Little Russ was cute when I was a kid); might be too stuffy?
Garrett: Carys and Garrett are too similar with their dominant sounds
Simon: same issues as Calvin
Even though he hasn’t gone so far as to say it, I think these are DH’s additional favorites: Dorian, Graham, Malcolm, Cullen (he had forgotten about Twilight and may have changed his mind after being reminded), Conrad, Caspian. I’m surprised by these, but he probably only likes them because they are connected to some video game or fantasy character.
I can’t figure out if meaning is important to me. It was with Carys, but only because I already loved the name. Felicity was our 2nd choice for her and I always thought it would be neat to name a 2nd daughter named Felicity so I could have “love” and “happiness” – cheesy, but adorable. I’m not sure if we would have gone with Felicity this time had he been a girl. We tried not to discuss names before finding out the sex.
I noticed after saying both names together a lot, that Eric and Carys have very similar sounds and it might be nice to get a name that has some sort of connection to my name (Michelle), which is one reason I like Dashiell. However, this is not that important in the end.
Middle name options are Richard or Kn0wle$ (my maiden name). Carys’ mn is Elizabeth after my MIL. I think I’d rather use Kn0wle$ to give a nod to my family, but it’s cumbersome with 0$term@n. Also, Richard seems so obvious because it gets 3 specific (and worthy) people.
I had been hoping to be able to find something as rare as Carys but not strange, just beautiful and interesting. Once people get that her name is Carys and not Cara or Carries, they love it. Unfortunately, DH eliminated my preferred rarities and I’m not sure I can handle his.
I guess I’m looking for help with arguments for and against these names and for advice on what works best with Carys. I’m also open to other suggestions, but feel like I’ve seen almost everything since I’m familiar with the entire SSA list.
Thanks for reading!
This is one of those opinions that’s really easy to give from a safe location outside the situation, but here it is anyway: if you hate the name Richard, and if your husband doesn’t care if he has a namesake or not and doesn’t like any nicknames/alternates for the name, then Richard should not be the default name. In fact, if I were you I would rule it out decisively right this minute. If necessary, your husband should go have a frank talk with his dad right now, so that the joy of your son’s birth is not compromised by anyone feeling shocked disappointment. It sounds like your father-in-law is the only one who wants this (though your mother-in-law may have a feeling of “Crud, why did I have to go through with that if the tradition was just going to die out anyway??”), and his vote is not strong enough to carry the day here. Scratch it off the list, I say! Scratch it off! End this silly tradition that is only being done because it’s a tradition and not because anyone wants the name! You are at least the second generation of mother who didn’t like the name. The tradition will end eventually anyway, and it might as well be with you guys.
Whew. Swistle should perhaps apply a little lavender oil to her temples until she can regain distance and perspective. She is getting a little bossy.
Ahem. What were we saying? Oh, yes: we were looking for a non-Richard name for this little boy. The next thing I’d consider is whether your husband’s family would appreciate having the blow softened, or not. Some families would feel a little better if you named the child Joseph, or gave him the middle names Richard Joseph (or just Richard), or gave him the initials R. J. but with different names (such as Russell James). Other families would feel that was insult added to injury. I think my own favorite, for a family that would feel better rather than worse, would be to choose a first name you love and then use Richard Joseph for the two middle names: ________ Richard Joseph 0$term@n. That way you get the entire Family Name, just with one part added (the new first name) and one part removed (the number at the end). It’s not The Same, but it’s Something.
Another possibility is to use a DIFFERENT male family namesake. The original Richard Joseph has been extensively honored at this point, as has his son, so now we could give someone else a turn. Your mother-in-law’s father? Your father? Either of the baby’s other grandfathers? A brother or uncle? This shows you’re not breaking a tradition of family honor, you’re just giving someone else a share of it.
Another fun possibility to consider, if it works with the first name choice, is to give your son the name Eric as his middle name: not your husband’s given name, but the name your husband feels is his name—and probably the name he would in fact have been given if your mother-in-law and father-in-law weren’t following a tradition.
This makes it fun to consider the name Leo, so that his first name and his initials would be the same. I also think Leo is very nice with Carys. Leo Eric 0$term@n; Carys and Leo.
Or perhaps these sorts of ideas won’t work for your husband’s family, or won’t work with the names you’d like to use, in which case we’re starting from scratch. You’ve done such careful research already, I’m reluctant to make suggestions: it seems like anything I’d suggest, you’d have already thought of. However, we’ve noticed before on this blog that sometimes hearing the idea supported by others can make a difference.
For example, if you like Miles, but you don’t like that it’s also a noun and also the name of a Facebook friend’s baby, I wonder if you’d like Milo? Perhaps you long since eliminated Milo for other reasons. But I love it with Carys. Milo Eric 0$term@n; Carys and Milo.
I don’t worry very much about name meanings. I suppose I might hesitate if a name meant something very unpleasant, but many, many names have been assigned religious meanings I don’t bat an eye at. People who ARE religious may get extra satisfaction out of using those names, but I don’t worry that anyone will think those meanings were intended. My own name means Christian, and yet I don’t feel as if anyone I met would think that was on purpose, or that it would communicate anything about my religious preferences.
Both Theodore and Miles are in style, but neither one seems trendy to me: they’re both doing the thing names with long histories do, where they come gently in and out of style with the years.
I think if you were having a daughter and considering the name Isabella, I might have concerns about the popularity/nickname gap between that name and the name Carys. For a sibling of the other sex, it doesn’t bother me at all. Many people have different styles for boy names and girl names, so if I met a Carys and an Alexander-called-Xan (or whatever), I wouldn’t think it was odd. A bigger hesitation for me is that the two of you prefer different nicknames. Some couples can work around that, and others can’t.
I feel the same way about the popularity of James: Carys and James seems like a perfectly reasonable sibling set to me. I like it.
I think of Isaac as “the next Zachary.” Isaac 0$term@n; Carys and Isaac.
Elliot goes into the Theodore/Miles category for me: not trendy, just a name with a long history having another turn being in style. I think the connection to Carys’s best friend’s brother is sweet.
Or would you like Emmett?
While I generally prefer to avoid repeated endings, I think it’s significantly different when there are different numbers of syllables. If your name were 0$tm@n, I might feel like Evan 0$tm@n and Simon 0$tm@n and Calvin 0$tm@n were a little choppy (though still okay to use). Because your surname instead has three syllables, I think it gives the name a nice tied-together sound, and I like all three name possibilities.
Russell stands out to me as an excellent choice with Carys. It has a similar level of unexpectedness yet familiarity, which seems like it’s one of your preferences. Plus, it sounds a little like your name, which would be fun because of the Carys/Eric thing. I know a Russell the same age as one of my kids, and his name has struck me again and again as being very usable and pleasing.
I’d also take Graham and Malcolm from your husband’s unofficial list. They too have that nice combination of unexpected and familiar.
Another option to sound somewhat like your name would be Mitchell. It looks quite a bit like Michelle, but the sounds are quite different. Mitchell 0$term@n; Carys and Mitchell.
I think you have a great list, and that at this point I’d suggest letting all the names simmer for awhile. Maybe do some ranking games, where you and your husband each pick your five favorites, for example, or each put the names in order from top to bottom and see if any of the names can be eliminated. Spend a day concentrating on one particular name, and see how it feels to you: do you find yourself trying to find reasons not to use it, or do you find yourself feeling very reluctant to cross it off the list, or just what? Go down the list as if you’re going to cross each one off in turn, and note which ones you don’t really mind crossing off, and which ones give you heart-pangs. Find some pictures of babies online, and try the names on them like little outfits. I think of every name in the world as having at least one issue, so it may also help to go down the list and see which issues bother you more, and which ones bother you less.
I remember when Paul and I were naming Henry, that was when we had our longest list of “These are all good but none are the obvious leader” names. We narrowed it down to seven, and I spent a lot of times playing games with the names. I put the list on the wall next to my desk, so my eyes could drift to it. After awhile, some names just floated to the top and some just sank to the bottom: I’d notice that every time we discussed them, there were a few that we really did like, but that those few NEVER came out ahead of the others. Eventually we got the list down to two names, then added one more, then finally had our winner—but I think we would have been happy with either of the other two finalists, too.
There’s also some chance your husband would come around to some of the favorites he eliminated before, which could make the decision clearer.
Name update!
Carys’ little brother showed up on May 21. After trying several times to make lists and discuss what we wanted, nothing persented as “the one” and we basically stopped talking about it until the very end. We did know all along what it would be, but couldn’t commit. Every time I brought it up, my husband would suggest alternatives like Helveticus (super helpful).
We settled on Alexander (Alec) Kn0wle$. It’s a compromise to have the formal name, but call him Alec instead of Alex. It turns out that Alexander is a family name – my great great and great great great grandfathers were Alexander. They also happened to be Scottish, which helps tie in our nn choice. I love it when these things work out without even trying (we found out after naming Carys that DH’s family has Welsh ancestry).
Another bonus, I haven’t had to spell it for anyone yet – a nice change from Carys.
Love the advice. I was coming to say Russell looks like the clear winner too! I don’t think it’s stuffy at all, next to Carys it looks established but fresh. I also wonder about using Kn0wles as a first name? I really like it, it sounds familiar maybe because if its similarity to Noel. I’m not a huge fan of the surname-as-first-name trend except where it’s honouring a family name. And if it’s as useable as yours, I’d say it’s a great contender! Plus it should appease your FIL as you’ll be honouring your side in a huge way.
Kn0wles Richard James 0sterm@n is my vote! Good luck!
I really like Russell James Knowles Osterm@n!
I love Knowles as a first name. Knowles Richard Joseph 0$term@n works though I prefer Knowles Eric 0$term@n or Knowles Richard 0$term@n.
I also really like Miles, Graham, and Russell.
I love Russell and Carys together.
If you want something similar to Miles but relatively unknown in the US, I’d suggest Mael–It’s a Breton name, #23 in France right now, but has never ranked in the top 1000 in the US. It’s pronounced very much like Miles, but without the “s” at the end. (still a noun, though). Mael is also quite popular in Switzerland, 3 born in the city where I’m staying, just this past week. Strictly speaking, there’s an umlaut over the e, the same as in Zoë. Maël.
Love Swistle’s suggestions of Leo and Milo, love previous commenters suggestion of Knowles as first name. I know a Carys (different spelling) who has a little brother named Ian (also different spelling) (yes). Ian O$term@n has an interesting flow, but I really like it. I like Mitchell and Evan too. I’m not a huge fan of Russell, this is such a dad name to me, but maybe just where I am. I also don’t think of Theodore and Miles as trendy, just more popular right now. How about
Cole
Alec (as its own name, not a nn)
Isaac (gosh, I really like the I names with your last name)
I’m trying to think of some well known but underused names as suggestions.
These two are similar to Graham
Grady Richard (I like that Grady and Carys both have Ys)
Grant Richard (Grant O$terman is so handsome)
Similar to Zack/Zachary
Zeke Richard
Zane Richard
Shane Richard (I really like Shane and Carys together)
Jonah Richard (similar to Richard Joseph, Jonah means dove)
Stellan Richard (Stellan isn’t too well known yet but sound-wise, it is on trend. It’s Swedish, means calm. Stellan and Carys is a lovely sib set)
Great suggestion of Stellan! Stellan and Carys. Love it.
I agree, Richard should be off the table. And FWIW, I kind of like bossy Swistle!
From your list, my favorites are Theodore & Graham. If you are concerned Theodore is too trendy, maybe Thaddeus nicknamed Thad?
Calvin and Carys sound too similar I think. So do Garrett and Carys. But, Calvin + Garrett reminds me of Gavin, so maybe you’d like that?
Since you like Felicity, I wonder if you’d also like Felix? Carys & Felix sound really nice together.
Yes! I came to the comments to suggest Felix!
How about Felix? It has the same meaning as Felicity and you’d still have your love and happiness.
I agree it’s time for Richard Joseph to be retired.
I’m sure you know this since it was your own surname, but Knowles is Beyonce’s maiden name. This type of strong association (no matter how much I love Beyonce!) would cross this option off my first name list for a baby. Middle name would be great, though!
I also strongly agree with Swistle about booting Richard from the list, no matter how much it might tweak the feelings of your in-laws. The slang associated with the name Richard/Dick has evolved quite intensely since the first Richard was named, and it’s time for the tradition to be retired. Eric as a middle name would be sweet, though.
Was going to say this, too. I don’t think it eliminates the name, depending how you feel about Beyonce, but I’d want to be aware of it. I definitely think of Ms. Knowles-Carter. To me it doesn’t sound very first namey, which makes it feel more like a tribute name.
I personally like the idea of using Richard James as a double middle, if that sounds like a good fit to the OPs family.
Beyonce is the first thing I thought of when she said her maiden name was Knowle$!
My son is a Richard 4th too! We call him River exclusively — R from Richard and IV from the Roman numeral 4 = RIVer. We also considered the nicknames Hardy (from the end of Richard), Reeve and Reese. We knew we would never call him Richard but wanted to keep the tradition going. My husband goes by Rush (initials are RSH).
It sounds like because of your husband’s dislike for the name, Richard is off the table for you guys, but just wanted to give you our solution to the same problem. :) His name has been received well and River suits him perfectly. Good luck!
Rush and River!! So cute.
Such a great solution! So if this family does go with Richard, they could call him Rio. (last name beginning with O).
But I’m with Swistle here; time to release this tradition…..
Another vote for Felix! The meanings together are adorable and Carys and Felix have the same amount of letters and both sound good with your last name.
Came to specifically suggest Felix! Agree with the commenters above – love how it sounds with Carys!
My husband is R0bert J0seph III and there was a little pressure to continue the tradition. But we didn’t (we did use J0seph) as a middle name- and there was no push back. Just be confident and unwavering in your decision!
I agree that it sounds like Richard is off the table for you guys…. although, I do like Sarah’s suggestion above of using the nickname River! Or I wonder if his initials would be RJO… he could go by a nickname like Arjo? or Rio? maybe you could play around a little more with the possible nickname options, but if nothing fits then please let this name go. You guys don’t like Richard, you don’t have to use it.
I’m not a huge fan of names ending in -S paired with your surname starting with OS-. I actually don’t mind it with Carys, because of the ending pronounced like -ISS. But I find Miles O$terman or James O$terman a bit of a tongue twister. I also agree with you that I don’t like the flow of names ending with N paired with your surname.
I agree with the suggestions of Felix, Russell, Isaac and Eric as really great contenders here!! Here are a couple of my ideas for unusual but familiar names that I like paired with Carys and your surname:
Arie (pronounced “ARE-ey”, as in ‘how ARE you”. Not AIR-ey)
Cedric
Desmond
Cole
A few more: Floyd, Reed/Reid (hey this also might be an ok nickname for a Richard?), Rudy, Heath, Emil, Gilbert, Rhett, Drew.
I’m on the ‘ditch Rich’ train here too. I also think since it irked your husband to have to constantly explain how his nickname came from Richard, that picking a nn that is a stretch should be off the table too (although there were some good suggestions).
I like the suggestions above of Leo, Graham, Malcolm, Isaac and Felix.
What about:
Everett (bc you like Evan)
Micah ( a tie to your name)
Eli
Oscar
Ronan
Cormac
Eamon
My son is named Miles, and the little boy we’re having in a few months will be named Elliott. Clearly, I like those two choices :) The other three top boys names on our list are Gideon, Oliver, and Duncan, if you like any of those!
I love the name Carys! Our daughter is named Afton Rhys, so I’m definitely attracted to the “no frills” “spunky” style and if we had a second daughter, we’d be deciding between Carys and Freya (and maybe Tamsyn) with the middle name Quinn!
Strangely enough, if we had a son, he would be named Malcolm Stirling – we love that it’s strong and has Celtic roots. It’s well-known, but not overly common. Maybe you can add it to your short list, since it’s on your husband’s? Stirling is a family name and another Scottish location name, like Afton =)
Using Eric or Knowles as middle names are both awesome suggestions =) I don’t think the Beyonce connection would be too strong in the middle name spot.
River for Richard the IV is also pretty darn cool, if you can get behind the whole Richard tradition – it’s so nice that you aren’t being pushed into it! Once it gets to III and IV the pressure can be pretty high!
Some other names that might be interesting: Rowan or Gavin (if you’re ok with the repeating end sound with your last name), Milo or Arlo (if you’re ok with the end sound of the first and the start sound of the last being the same – I think it just forces a pause!), Grant (like Garrett and Graham, but not as similar in sound with Carys?). Other names with kind of a Celtic twist (since Carys has that Welsh connection): Fergus, Murdoch, Lachlan, Callum, Brogan, Griffin (nn. Finn).
Can’t wait to find out what you pick!!
I really like Malcolm with the sibset.
What about Arlo? It is kind of like Milo.
Carys and Arlo.
Carys and Felix are AMAZING together!
Also like Ian and Grant, especially with your three syllable surname.
What about Dylan, Rhys, Gareth, Lloyd, Morgan, Maddox, Hugh, Luc, Tomos or Tarrant for that Welsh feel?
Luc or Hugh O$sterm@n are great!
Cadel (Kah-dell), like the cyclist Cadel Evans, with the nn Cal is a pretty cool Welsh name too! This can also be spelt Cadell if you want, not only a similar sound, but look to your own name.
All the best!
Here are some suggestions that seem to fit with some of the names you liked
Anvy
Dmitri
Cortlund
Bradford
Bevin
Dougrey
Fenric
Irwin
Gideon
Josiah
Hadrian
Gareth
Japeth
Furian
I loved James and Cerys together until I realized that they reminded me of Jamie and Cersei from Game of Thrones :/ Would you like Emory or Elijah?
A vote for Leo here but a knock against Mitchell and Malcolm- how about Marshall?
If you like Miles, but not quite, you might also like Giles (pronounced JIYLZ according to baby name wizard). In your first pass, you might have missed it due to its non-obvious pronunciation. I think Russel or Malcolm or Felix would also be good choices.
Lots of good name options here. I just thought I’d suggest running your rare favorites (Aidric, Clark, Cedric, Dashiell, Everett, Wesley) by your husband again. If they were a list of 200 names that he had to go through, I’m guessing he didn’t spend much time considering each name. And if he’s anything like my husband, he prefers names that he’s at least somewhat familiar with. Just keeping them on the list for a bit and letting him get familiar with them might go a long way toward him liking them more.
How about Noel as a tribute to Knowles? Carys Elizabeth & Noel Eric is perfect!
I know a Carys with siblings Louis, Ian and Alex.
Since Carys is a popular Welsh name have you thought of looking at the Welsh male chart? Owen, Evan and Rhys go well with Carys in my mind.
Since you liked Felicity for a girl, and this is your last baby how about Felix? I think Felix and Carys go great together and the love and happiness thing is pretty awesome.
Wow! Thanks for all the comments Swistle and readers! You’ve given us a lot to think about.
We told them in-laws over the weekend and FIL didn’t seem too hung up on us using his name. It’s still a last resort, but there’s no pressure.
Of course, many of the suggestions were ones already rejected by DH (like Isaac), and I’ve been working on my favorites for years, but maybe with some support they will get further.
Using Knowles as a first name had not occurred to me, but I have to admit that I just can’t imagine calling that multiple times a day. I have considered Nolan though, and maybe that can be a nod to my maiden name.
We’ve got a lot of work ahead of us. I’m glad we still have 6 months left. I’ll be sure to update you all after he arrives.
Since you like Calvin nn Cal but aren’t sure about the -n ending, how about Callum? Someone mentioned it above in a list of Celtic names, but I wanted to bring it into the spotlight a little more. It seems to me a different but very “wearable” name, and Callum and Carys are lovely together. I think my vote for a full name would be Callum Eric Kn0wle$ 0$term@n.
Congratulations!
I recently heard of a fourth son going by the name Ford. I thought I’d throw it out there. :)
I agree with the others that Russell stuck out to me as the obvious winner. I think it works great with Carys and its not old at all.
I get where you are coming from with the meaning of Theodore, I kind of feel the same way, but if I were to use this name it would get its meaning from history rather than Latin and I would use it to evoke Theodore Roosevelt, who was a great man.
I haven’t had time to read all the comments but 100% agree with Swistle about crossing Richard off the list! She outlined all the reasons to nix it, brilliantly.
My own impulse would be to pick something Celtic with Carys, which sounds so Welsh to me…
Some Celtic (Welsh, Irish, Scottish) names:
Bran
Dylan
Davis
Euan/Iain
Gavin
Owen
Arthur
Evan
Patrick
Duncan
Rory
Good luck!
^ a lot of these have the -n ending you are unsure of, but O….man is so long that the repetition is ok (to my ear).
My favorite, though, from the above list with Carys is Rory.
I really love the suggestion of Stellan with both Carys and your last name!! How great. Grant is also really lovely for you.
Just throwing this idea out there….we named our son Dixon which means ‘son of Richard’ since I didn’t love the name Richard either. We’ve gotten nothing but compliments in it!
Malcolm was on our short list, but we ultimately went with Callum. I think Callum would be lovely for you — Callum & Carys. You can use nn Cal and avoid the “ends in n” problem. Congratulations!
Dane Eric- it is a strong, unique, masculine name that is known but not popular. I like Carys and Dane together too.