Dear Swistle,
I love your blog, and have been an avid reader for several years.
I am writing to you because my husband and I are pregnant with our third (and final!) baby, a girl, due in December. As we always planned to have three, we actually thought we’d have more than one opportunity to name a girl! However, our destiny was different, and we have two wonderful boys, Daniel William (Danny) and Thomas Andrew (Tommy) who were born in 2008 and 2011, respectively. Our last name is the English word for Klein, starts with an L.
Funny story about Daniel. The ultrasound technician told us at our 20-week scan that she thought we were having a girl, so we planned around a first-born girl, and chose the name Catherine Esther (after my husband’s mother Kathleen and my mother Esther). As it turned out, Catherine was a Daniel — which we found out long after the baby shower, unfortunately, which loaded us with ruffles, rainbows and pink! But had Daniel been a Catherine, and our second one also a girl, we would have named her Emma Elizabeth (my name is Elizabeth, and it’s also my mother’s middle name).
Now here we are pregnant with our last baby, and having trouble choosing a name. We still like the name Catherine (and aren’t sure what we like better), but this was very much the name associated with our first born (I can’t explain it, but it was a strange thing going through a pregnancy thinking you have a different baby inside you than the one who was born); now there’s a Duchess named Catherine; and now (coincidentally), our boys’ nanny is named Catherine. Also, we think the name Emma has gotten too popular in the interim. And although we like the name Elizabeth, my preference is not to have a baby with the same first name as mine.
I’ve also — since I was a girl — loved the name Penelope, or Poppy, for short. But my husband is not convinced that’s a first name — so we have essentially three names we’d consider as middle names, but no first names.
Finally, we are Americans living in Holland, so with Daniel and Thomas, we were deliberate about trying to pick names that are sort of universal, or at least understandable and recognizable in both languages.
Would you help us? We would so appreciate your advice, and also, in the event that we can’t decide amongst those three, we’d be grateful for your thoughts on giving a baby two middle names. Fun or troublesome??
Many thanks,
The Hollanders
When I was reading your letter and hadn’t yet come to the part about your first name being Elizabeth, my first thought with boys Daniel/Danny and Thomas/Tommy was sister Elizabeth/Betsy.
I feel inclined now to find something similar. I’m not familiar with how names sound/work in Dutch, but I’m thinking along the lines of something with a nickname such as Tessie, Milly, Josie, Sally, Sadie, Ruthie, Lettie, Lottie, Molly, Polly, Nellie.
Because I have both Sally and Sadie on the nickname list, Sarah is my first suggestion for first name. I know a child named Sarah with your same surname, and it continually strikes me as an adorable name. It sounds almost storybook-classic: charming without being overly whimsical. Daniel, Thomas, and Sarah; Danny, Tommy, and Sally/Sadie.
Molly and Polly may be too similar to Tommy anyway, but they also cause a slight problem as nicknames, since both are nicknames for Mary and I don’t think that’s widely known at this point. Still, Mary is my second suggestion: I think “Polly/Molly was originally a nickname for Mary” should be enough explanation for most people, and Polly is close to Poppy. Daniel, Thomas, and Mary; Danny, Tommy, and Molly/Polly. Oh, wait: as I say the names aloud, I find that my instinct is to say “Mary L_____ is/isn’t Very L_____.” Along with the unfamiliar-nicknames issue and similar-to-Tommy issue, that might be enough for me to say never mind. It’s not that it’s SUCH a bad thing or SO obviously an issue, it’s just that anytime something springs to my mind right away, I wonder if it will be something that will spring to EVERYONE’S mind, getting quite tiresome for the owner of the name.
Josephine feels more in line with Catherine/Emma than do Sarah and Mary, so that’s my third suggestion. Daniel, Thomas, and Josephine; Danny, Tommy, and Josie.
But let’s go back to the original choices for a minute. If your husband’s mother were named Catherine instead of Kathleen, I don’t think I could resist the appeal of honoring both grandmothers with one baby. Because your nanny is named Catherine and you strongly associate the name with your first pregnancy, I can see why it might be off the list at this point—but I can also see it being The Name: “I was SO SURE my baby was Catherine—and she WAS, she just decided to go to the back of the line!”
If Emma feels too popular, I wonder if you would like the name Emeline (or perhaps Emmie is too close to Tommy). Daniel, Thomas, and Emeline; Danny, Tommy, and Emmie.
Of the middle name options, I’m not sure which is my favorite. You’ve given compelling reasons for using each of them. I can at least contribute on the subject of having two middle names: I have two middle names and so do all five of my children. I’d confidently declare it to be no hassle at all—except that the reason it’s no hassle at this point is that a few hassles early on taught me how to avoid future hassles. But I can list all the hassles on one hand:
1. When Rob started school, they originally entered his first name as “Robert FirstMiddle”; I sent in a note to have that fixed, which they did.
2. For another child, I’ve forgotten which one, some paperwork was accidentally printed with “SecondMiddle Surname” as the surname. Again, I just mentioned it and it was fixed.
3. Occasionally an account will have room for only one initial. I wanted to choose a “default initial” for each of us, for consistency. This took a little bit of thought, of the kind I find interesting as opposed to burdensome.
4. Very occasionally (like fewer than five times total over nearly two decades), someone taking the information from me has acted eye-rolly about it. I find that intensely annoying. Considering how many people I know with two middle names, it should not be a big/surprising deal. Luckily, the eye-rolly reaction happens very very infrequently, and often from people who also act as if everything else, including my multiple-spellings first name and difficult-to-spell surname, were also chosen specifically to irritate/inconvenience them. So. I’m not sure this even counts as a hassle; I guess it’s more like a minor associated annoyance—along the lines of being annoyed that some forms only have room for one middle name.
Because of the first two hassles, I’ve learned to be quite clear when filling out paperwork, or when speaking to someone who is filling out the paperwork for me. So for example, if someone says “Middle name?,” I say, “He has two. Does the form have room for two, or just one?”; if they say “I can do both,” I give them both; if they say “Just one,” I give them the default middle name. Or if I’m filling out the form, and it’s a paper form, I will if necessary (like if it’s one long line for Full Name) draw little brackets and arrows to make things clear. For example, I might put a bracket around the two middle names with an arrow that says “two middle names”; I might add a note saying, “If only room for one, we use ______.”
When I write it all out like this, it looks like a hassle. In actual practice, it is so little hassle it tempts me to say it’s none—or at least no more hassle than dealing with a name being misspelled or two digits of our phone number being swapped. Once the forms have been filled out for each place that needs forms on the child, it’s done and doesn’t have to keep being done. And in general, we’ve found that people whose jobs involve filling out forms are unsurprised by the concept of having two middle names.
And it seems like an excellent solution in your case, where you have one baby girl and three great middle name ideas. I would choose between Esther and Elizabeth: I love the idea of using your mom’s name, and I love the idea of keeping the Elizabeth tradition going, but using both your mom’s names seems like too much honor for one person. (Using Elizabeth would spare you from any discomfort that might come from using one grandmother’s name and not the other’s, if you do choose not to use Catherine.) And then I’d use Penelope as the other middle name. The full name will end up long (which I love anyway, so it doesn’t feel like a downside to me even though I realize it can be), but will hardly ever be used in all its glory: my daughter’s name has a total of 12 syllables, but everywhere except her paperwork she’s known by just first/last name.
Or would your husband be more keen on the name Penelope if it came with the nickname Nellie or Penny (maybe too similar to Danny) instead of Poppy? Daniel, Thomas, and Penelope; Danny, Tommy, and Nellie. You could still also call her Poppy. With one middle name option removed, I’d be putting another right in its place: Kathleen. It avoids the nanny/duchess/first-pregnancy issues, and more directly honors your husband’s mother, and I think it makes a very pretty middle name. Penelope Elizabeth Kathleen L_____. I like the balance of the name, too: a name you’ve loved since you were little (but not a family name) as the first name; then, the Elizabeth tradition from your side of the family; then, your husband’s mother’s first name; then, your husband’s family surname (assuming it IS his family’s surname).
If you went the two middle direction, how about using Catherine Esther as the middles, since you liked them together enough to choose them before? If you could get your husband on board with Penelope, I really like Penelope Catherine Esther.
Or… Rosemary Catherine Esther (Rosie), Susannah Catherine Esther (Susie or Sukey).
Oh and since you have your mother’s middle as your first– is your middle usable as a first for your daughter? That would be kind of cool.
I like the sound and flow of Esther Catherine but it sounds like you have ruled out Esther as a first name.
It does appear that you like traditional names and nicknames. Have you considered Margaret? Daniel, Thomas, and Margaret… Danny, Tommy, and Maggie
Another great option is Louisa. Daniel, Thomas, and Louisa.. Danny, Tommy, and Lulu.
Lillian is another good alternative. Daniel, Thomas and Lillian. Danny, Tommy, and Lily,
Would you consider Susannah? Daniel, Thomas, and Susannah. Danny, Tommy, and Susie
I love Catherine too (my first daughter is Catherine), but with your nanny having that name, I think it would be awkward now to use it. (I would be less concerned about having almost used it for your first baby and not at all concerned about the duchess.)
You had two lovely girls’ names chosen that would have included both grandmothers’ names and your own. In your circumstances — two names, just one daughter to name — I’d give her the double middle name Elizabeth Kathleen or Kathleen Elizabeth (I’d use Kathleen, not Catherine, as a middle name because you would be using the name to honor your MIL Kathleen, a lovely name in its own right) and a first name all her own, something along the line of:
Emma Elizabeth Kathleen “Emmie” (yes, Emma is very popular, but Daniel is too – #10 in the U.S.)
Penelope Kathleen Elizabeth “Penny” or “Nellie”
Sarah Elizabeth Kathleen “Sally” or “Sadie”
Lucy Elizabeth Kathleen
Just remembered your surname: Lucy L_____ would sound like a nursery rhyme! Scratch that suggestion.
I like Esther the best of your middle name options…both because I love the name and because I think it’s the most distinctive.
Of the first names, I wouldn’t give up on Penelope. Poppy is great and seems like it would fit in easily in Holland and your husband’s objections don’t seem super strong. Or maybe another variant of Catherine, like Kate or Katrina. (Katrina is Dutch, right? So that could be a kind of cool connection for you).
What about Ebby Lee?
Danny, Tommy and Ebby Lee
You don’t say in the letter how long you’re planning to stay in Holland– or if you think your kids will be international kids for most of their childhoods. I think the very first thing to do is make sure all of your potential choices work in Dutch. (Maybe you’ve already done this, though, forgive me if so!) I’m a little familiar with the Netherlands and Dutch people, and know that non-Dutch names are widely used, popular, and accepted there, which is nice and helpful. I would double-check that Poppy doesn’t mean something unpleasant, though.
I absolutely love the name Penelope, and think that would be my first pick in your shoes. There are plenty of other nicknames besides Poppy, and I’d hope that a nickname disagreement wouldn’t derail it with your husband. Maybe you should focus on Penelope with him, and let Poppy go for now. You could always call her Poppy as a pet name yourself, and your husband could call her Penny or Nell, etc. Besides, what does he mean when he says he doesn’t think Poppy is a “first name”? It’s completely used as such (though it sounds admittedly really weird in Spanish). As a nickname, with Penelope on the birth certificate, it shouldn’t matter particularly either way.
I rarely disagree with Swistle, but in this case I suggest going with a long name with your surname… My partner has a surname very similar to yours, and anything short and cute ends up sounding very twee and precious (in a bad way). Like no Molly or Daisy or Maisie for us (all names I love). Penelope and Catherine each have enough heft to carry off L—-.
Some universal, understandable, long names that come to mind:
Sophia (popular, though)
Annabel
Caroline
Emilia
Alexandra
Eleanor
Julia
Juliette
Theodora
On sounds alone, I think Caroline, Juliette, Annabel, and Penelope are my favorites with your surname. Juliette is nice, too, because it offers the offbeat nickname Etta.
Good luck, and please update us!
Oh, I do like Penelope Elizabeth Kathleen. My only hesitation is that if your family doesn’t normally do 2 middles, will Kathleen actually feel honored, or will she think it was only an after thought? I mention this because my family does not normally do 2 middles. My cousin did it with her daughter in order to fit in a namesake she really wanted to use. The person being honored was actually quite upset because “second middles don’t really count.” Hopefully this wouldn’t be an issue in your family, but it may be something to consider.
I also really like the idea of Sarah for you. It fits well with your sons’ names and it travels well. Margaret also came to mind for me. Margaret also travels well, is classic like the other names you like and I think Danny, Tommy and Maggie work really well together.
Another option in place of Catherine/Kathleen might be to use another language variant. Katrin, Catalina, Karin, Katja, Caitlin, etc. These don’t feel as classically English as Daniel and Thomas, but I think they are still recognizable as “version of Catherine.”
Because my daughter is raising her family in Switzerland, I think I can relate to some aspects of your question. From what I’ve read, (and heard on the streets), the trend throughout most of Northern Europe is toward very short first names, making Emma or Sarah nearly perfect, and names like Penelope or Josephine a bit awkward, especially in schools where the full names would be used by the teachers. And Josephine/Josie would be tricky for the Dutch to pronounce–they’d want to say “Yosie.” Which is cute but maybe not what you’re going for. Mary is worth considering, and wouldn’t even need a nickname–it sounds like a nickname while still being classic. Or Anna, nicknamed Annie. Or Eva, nicknamed Evie. In Europe, in 2014, I’d go out of my way to eliminate overly long first names, especially with two middles that might end up being long themselves..
Sorry, upon reflection I realized Annie would never work with Danny. And also, checking the stats, I see that Emma is #1 for girls in the Netherlands. But I’d still consider using it because of how well it pairs with your sons’ names & your desires.
Or what about Isobel instead of Elizabeth? I also thought either Susan or Ellen would be pronounceable by the Dutch and fit well with Daniel & Thomas. You could use Susie/Sukie & Ellie/Leni. Maybe leave off the final “e” in the nickname (so it wouldn’t be pronounced as a separate vowel?) Susi/Suki, Elli/Leni. Could be considered very retro.
If you haven’t already, I’d google “names pronounced the same in English & Dutch”. And maybe give less weight to finding a nickname–that can always evolve.
Good luck!
I’m Canadian, my fiancé is Dutch and we live in Canada, but his family is all over Holland and all have Dutch as their first language, so we also have the same issue – names must be pronounceable & spellable in both English and Dutch. One of our rules is to try to avoid using J’s and G’s because they are pronounced so differently in the two languages. Here’s my shortlist of names, maybe some might work for you:
Elise, Camille, Mabel, Marlowe, Antonia, Anneliese, Beatrix, Liane, Sabine, Sadie, Sophie/Sofie, Sydney, Vivien.
I really LOVE Camille, Marlowe, Mabel, Sabine, Sadie and Sophie paired with Elizabeth as a middle!
I don’t know how this would go over in Holland, but I think Abigail (Abby) would sound nice with the boys’ names.
I REALLY like Catherine for you, especially with your boys’ names. I get your hesitation, but it really is a beautiful name. :)
I like Swistle’s suggestion of Mary, too. Mimi is a very cute nickname for Mary. Or you could do Mary Catherine (or even Mary Kathleen), or any other name with Mary…Mary Elizabeth, Mary Louise, etc.
My other suggestion would be Sylvia, which is a gorgeous name with some super cute nickname options. Sylvie is my favorite, but you could even do Susie, Sue, etc.
Good luck!!
Oh that is cute. I like the idea of Mary Catherine with the nickname Mary Kate!
What about Eleanor? you could use the nickname Ella, Ellie, or Norah (my fav). I like Eleanor Katherine Elizabeth L___. Danny, Tommy, & Norah. Perhaps too out there, but Eka is a Slavic nickname for Katerine, and I like that you could have that as a possible nickname too. I ran into a few Eka’s while in Germany, but don’t know about Holland.
I would echo what Swistle says about 2 middle names. My son has 2 middles and they are both quite long (in letters) so that in total including spaces writing his first and 2 middle names out on a form (which usually all belong in one box/set of boxes) = 22 digits.
However, I have found this to be no problem at all. If it is a written form with supposedly 1 box per letter I just ignore the boxes and write it out neatly within the space provided but with the letters overlapping boxes and always leaving a clear 1 box space between each of the 3 names. I have never been reprimanded for this and am constantly filling out various government and official forms.
I have never come across an online form which requires middle names which doesn’t have enough digit allowance for his first and 2 middles.
Nobody has ever criticised us for it (in fact when you say “he has 2 middles” you find out many other people or their parents or their children have 2 middles too).
I had never thought of what Swistle says about choosing 1 of the middles to use if an organisation only accepts 1 middle on their form… it has just never been an issue. I have never been told “no you cannot use 2 middle names”.
Two middle names should not be a problem at all if you are planning on staying in the Netherlands! I am Canadian living in the Netherlands with my Dutch husband, and a strong majority of Dutch people have 2 if not 3 middle names!