My husband and I are expecting our first child- a girl, in October. He is pretty insistent that we not name her until she arrives but I want to at least have a solid short list of names going in. Our last name is very similar to Niemen.
Had the baby been a boy he would have been named Charles Gray with the nickname Arlo. Charles after my deceased father, Gray is a family name on my husband’s side. I love the idea of naming the baby after my dad but I really don’t love the options for girls. I do like Charlotte but my husband does not and there are tons of them in my neighborhood.
This brings us to Catherine, my paternal grandmother’s name. Paired with my husband’s grandmother’s name of Jeanne for a middle name it gives our daughter the family names of two amazing women and my father’s initials. The problem is a nickname- the typical options are taken by family (except CJ which I do not like at all) so we are leaning towards Wren/Reine (they would be pronounced the same). Thoughts on this nickname and the spelling options would be helpful since we are sort of at an impasse on the spelling.
The next name we both really like is Mavi (pronounced Mah-vee) it has no family significance but we both like it a lot. My main worry is she won’t have a more traditional name to fall back on if she finds it a bit too unique. I am also worried about needing to defend/explain this choice to people. My husband is adamantly opposed to Maeve or Mavis.
After those two names we are just stuck, which would be fine but I am not sure either one is perfect. Other names we have discussed:
He likes:
Orla
Emily
Astrid
PiperSome of my favorites that he doesn’t care for:
Juliette- he vetoed because he knows to many people with this or a similar name
Scarlet
Lena
Violet
Isla
Ellis
Vivienne nn Vivi
Louisa nn LuluBasically we came up with this list months ago and we keep just re-vetoing the same names and we haven’t been able to add any good contenders. Both of us want something slightly less common, but I prefer getting there via nickname with a more traditional option if she wants it. We both seem to be drawn to names that end in vowel sounds or other soft sounds.
We would love to hear your thoughts on Wren vs. Reine, if Mavi is too out there and to get a few more name options to ponder.
Thank you so much for any help you can offer!
Nicole
The problem of how to spell the nickname from the ending syllable of Catherine reminds me of the problem of how to spell the nickname from the ending syllables of Mattea. It may have to be the sort of nickname that’s verbal but not written; or the kind the starts out as verbal and then you let the spelling develop on its own. The exception, I think, is if you want Wren: I consider that its own name, with its own strong image—so if you want Wren specifically, I think you should start early with it.
I don’t think I’d spell it Reine. I could only figure out how you wanted it pronounced by the alternate spelling Wren. If I encountered that spelling and were trying to figure it out, I might try rine (rhyming it with wine) or pronouncing it like the word rain/reign/rein, but I don’t think I’d ever get to a short-E sound.
Another possibility is to spell the name Cathryn and spell the nickname Ryn or Rynn, evoking Lyn/Lynn—but I much prefer the spelling Catherine (especially if that’s the family spelling), to the point of suggesting spelling the nickname Ryn/Rynn even with the Catherine spelling. I prefer Rynn anyway: Ryn makes me wonder if it’s supposed to rhyme with wine, as well as giving me a slight Ayn Rand feeling. Rynn makes the most pronunciation sense to me, and is no further from the spelling of the full than than Wren/Reine. It does take you from the Ren sound to a Rin sound, though. If you want the short-E sound, I think I’d spell it Renn or Wren.
I have one more nickname option to suggest, though it’s a real reach. I came to it when considering C.N. instead of C.J.—and that made me think of the name Sienna. C.N.-ah.
I think that if you don’t want to defend/explain it, Mavi is probably not the right choice for your family. It’s almost completely unused in the United States (5 new baby girls given the name in 2013), so endless requests for information will be part of the package deal of that name. People will want to know why you used it, where you came up with the idea of it. Spelling and pronunciation will be significant recurring issues.
Looking at your lists, one question I have is whether sibling-name coordination is one of your preferences. There is a wide assortment of styles here, from Emily (very popular and familiar) to Orla (virtually unused in the United States); from Ellis (unisex, used more often for boys in the United States) to Vivienne (very feminine). If you do like sibling names to coordinate, one exercise that can help narrow down your style is to imagine a group of children instead of just one. Picture the kids gathered around the table for dinner, or sitting in the living room reading books: do Catherine and Violet seem more like Your Family? or do you feel more at home imagining Astrid and Piper?
Actually, I’m having trouble even doing this exercise, because the style spread is so wide: I usually prefer to make a group of three siblings, but had trouble even finding two.
It might help us to return to your boy-name choice for guidance. Charles is a very traditional, classic, familiar name, and also a family name for you; but Arlo is a contemporary, unusual, non-intuitive nickname for it. Perhaps THAT is the style that would best suit the two of you: traditional/family names with unusual nicknames. This gives you everything you want: family names, unusual names—AND a more traditional name to fall back on, if the children turn out to prefer that.
Going on Swistle’s last paragraph, I do think Charles/Arlo, Catherine/Wren would be a great sibling pair if you eventually had a boy and a girl. I also prefer Catherine/Wren to Mavi and the other spellings of the nickname, pretty much for the reasons Swistle outlined. I do think Ren could work, too, though. Another option for naming a girl after your father is Caroline, but you may have already considered that. Good nicknames there. Caro is my favorite.
I agree with the previous comment that Catherine and Charles with their unusual nicknames makes a great sibling pair. I personally would use ‘Ren’ as a nickname for Catherine, as it makes more sense to me than Wren and I pronounce it the same way. If you have ever read Margaret Atwood’s speculative fiction MaddAddam trilogy, she has a character named Brenda who always goes by Ren and I think it is an awesome nickname. My only hesitation is that Catherine Nieman is a bit rhyme-y, but not unpleasantly so.
So reading this, I’m wondering… How is Catherine pronounced?
I would say it Cath-reen. And sometimes it is 3 syllables instead of 2. I know some say it Cath-rin. (But then I confuse it with Cathryn.)
Do some people pronounce it Cath-wren?
I pronounce it CATH-er-rinn—or, if I’m saying it quickly, CATH-rinn. (I think of Catherine/Katherine/Katharine/Kathryn/Cathryn as alternate spellings of the same name—though I’d say Kathryn/Cathryn with two syllables, not with three or two-and-a-half as I do with the other spellings.) But the short-I sound I’m using is very close to a short-E sound in this case: it’s similar to my own name, which is probably supposed to be KRIS-tenn but which I generally pronounce more like KRIS-tinn. So if someone was saying more of an -enn sound than an -inn sound, that wouldn’t surprise me. (I WOULD be surprised by a -reen sound: I’m not familiar with that pronunciation for the name.)
Wow, this is one of those moments when you realize you’ve been getting it wrong all these years. I did know one elderly lady who was a Katherine pronounced KATH reen. (Rhymes with Kathleen.) And I guess I assumed ever since that it was a standard pronunciation.
I pronounce Catherine as two syllables, like Cath-rinn (short i sound). I could see someone pronouncing it Cath-ren, with different accents. In fact the more I say it, it seems like my pronunciation falls somewhere in between the two.
I say CATH-ah-ryn. Sometimes CATH-ryn. But always a short “i” sound at the end. I do pronounce Catherine/Katharine/Katherine differently than Cathryn/Kathryn.
Would you consider the nickname Cat? I have a dear friend Cat (Catherine) and I love her name. Cat and Arlo sound so cute together to me.
I also like Cat and Arlo! Wren is cute as a name…but not as a full name and I think it’s almost a little too stretched from Cathrine. I know there are nicknames that do not always connect right back to the original, but since Wren is more unusual, I think it feels a little forced.
Kit and Kay would also be viable, less traditional nicknames for Catherine. My grandmother was Catherine but always went by Kay, which did cause some confusion when people (understandably) thought because of that that her name was spelled Katherine, but generally it worked fine.
Yes, I was about to suggest Kitty as a nickname for any of the spellings of Catherine.
Wren and Rynn are both great nicknames for Catherine. I don’t like the Ren spelling nearly as much, maybe because it reminds me of Ren & Stimpy. I like StephLove’s suggestion of Caroline too, which could give you Lina as a nn. I think Chloe could also work as an honor name for Charles.
Wanted to add that I know a Catherine who goes by Ki, which could also work for you.
as a nn for Catherine I think the Ren (no w) spelling makes the most since to me, or Rin, but Ren just looks more complete to me. Catherine nn Ren defiantly fits the style of Charles nn Arlo the best, so if you plan to hold on to Charles for a future boy that is a plus. I keep trying to think of a name of a similar style to Catherine and Charles that could give you Mavi as a nn, so far I’ve come up with,
Mary Violet nn Mavi
Mary Vivienne nn Mavi
Margaret Vivienne “Mavi”
Martha Violet “Mavi”
Matilda Violet
Mattea Violet
or almost any other first name that starts with Ma- with a middle that starts with Vi-. Or maybe a first name that ends in -ma, perhaps Jemima Violet?
Love this idea! I was trying to come up with something similar but was far less successful than Averella :)
Very much in agreement with several things that have already been said:
1. the Charles/Arlo | Catherine/Wren sibset would be very well paired.
2. Had also thought of suggesting something along the lines of Mae Violet to get nn. Mavi
*although I STRONGLY suggest avoiding Jemima Violet due to the racial overtones of the name Jemima in the U.S.
The name Madhavi could also probably give you Mavi. Or Maven or Mavra?
I love Charles and Catherine as a sibset.
If you like Mavi, what about Maven, Mavin/Mavyn, Mavleen or Mavery?
I wonder if you like other “avi” names like Aviana, Octavia, Lavinia, Aviella/Avielle.
Your husband likes Emily and you like Ellis. What about Elise, Elin, Elodie, Elsie or Elsa?
May I add Kit as another possible nickname for Catherine?
I love the name Caroline with the nickname Rory (a suggestion I read from Swistle)! I think that Caroline and Charles, or Rory and Arlo, would be a lovely future sibling pair.
Ooh, I like Rory! And I agree it would sound fantastic with Arlo, if a potential sibling is in the cards.
I think the Charles/Arlo and Catherine/Wren combinations seem the most consistent. I agree that spelling it either Wren or Rynn makes the most sense. I would never guess the soft E sound for Reine. I would assume Reen or Rain or even Rine for that spelling.
Have you considered any of the non-English diminutives or variants for Catherine? Catya & Catrin both come to mind, but there are others.
Sorry, but I honestly don’t care for Mavi at all.
Arlo and Orla made me think of Arla, maybe you’d like that?
And Marlowe! What about Marlowe Violet or Marlowe Vivienne, nn Mavi?
I like Catherine Jeanne so much! Are you sure you want to plan a nickname in advance? If you name your daughter Catherine, you might end up calling her by her full name, or a nickname (possibly even unrelated to Catherine) could come up naturally. I’m just not sure it’s worth giving up what seems to be a wonderful, inclusive honor name over indecision about a nickname. Good luck!
Is it Mavi, rhymes with navy? or more like mah-vee? Honestly, it isn’t my favorite out of your choices, but I think if you like it you can probably get to it from a variety of “m” names.
That said, I think I like a more traditional name with a less traditional nickname, and it seems like you guys do too.
Never mind, you addressed how it’s pronounced. I still think you could get there from other “M” names, but if you guys don’t like them, maybe it’s best to let it go.
1. I wonder if you were planning on having more than one child?
2. If the answer is yes, would you still want to use Charles for a boy?
3. If the answer is yes, would you feel comfortable/happy using Charles Grey if you already had Caroline Jeanne?
If the answers to questions 1-2 are yes and the answer to three is no, perhaps kicking Caroline J. down the road for the next baby is the way to go, that way you would give yourself a chance for the boy name you want.
In response to Swistle, it strikes me that Charles might be an outlier for you, but one that you are using because of your lovely desire to honor a beloved and deceased parent. Assuming that is the case, I don’t think you necessarily need to match Charles in style if you prefer something else.
Here are some suggestions:
First, I can’t help but urge you to use Wren (which is honestly one of my favorite names)
Otherwise your husband has Emily and Orla and you have Ellis- What about Eloise or Helena
You have Lena and Isla- These make me think of Layla, Cora, and Lisle
Your husband has Astrid and Piper- These make me think Ingrid, Irene, and Juniper
My dad’s name is Charles. And I wanted to use it to honor him. We didn’t know if we were having a boy or a girl so I came up with several possibilities had it been a girl (it was a boy, Charles Scott).
Charlize/Charlise
Carla (my dad jokes that he is Carlos)
Charlene
My favorite was always Charlize. Yes, like the actress.
Carla could solicit the nickname of Arla, which is a mix of your husbands Orlando and your Isla.
*Orla autocorrect, ha.
Hmm, your husband’s style is all over the place, as Swistle’s points out. Can he articulate why he likes the names he does? He sounds slightly difficult in this department– maybe he doesn’t realize how limiting he’s being. But, if you guys have managed to agree on Catherine, I’d stick with it, especially as its such a lovely name and currently not very common at all.
The nickname situation is problematic though. To me, Wren (spelled that way) is a stretch from Catherine and I agree you’d have to start early and firmly to make it stick. I’d skip Reine– it is a puzzling spelling– I’d pronounce it “Rain” if I just looked at it. I assume you’re avoiding Ren because of the cartoon association. What about Renn, maybe?
No offense, but I’m not convinced ALL of Catherine’s traditional nicknames are taken by family. :) You’d need many, many Catherines around for that.
Nicknames:
Kate/Cate
Cat/Kat
Kitty
Kit
Kitsy
Kathy
Kay
Katie
Katya/Katia/Catia
CC/Cece (I know a Catherine who goes by this, and her middle initial is not C)
Kiki
I’m sure you’ve already thought of a lot of these, but I just wanted to put in the full list in case you missed any. I think all of them are a little easier to connect with the name than Wren/Ren.
Anyway, I also agree with the others that you should try to engage your husband on future sibling names as well, if only to save trouble down the road.
Best wishes and please do update us!
I’m surprised that no one has made the connection of Reine with the French word for queen (which, if you don’t try to recreate the French R, sounds basically like Wren). That said, even having lived in France, if I saw this as a written name outside of the context of you saying “Wren/Reine,” I might still default to thinking it was pronounced like “rye-nuh” – it looks Scandinavian to me at first glance.
I strongly prefer Wren over Reine, since I don’t like “royal” names, but think it’s a pretty good nickname for Catherine–not something people are going to jump to, but who says a nickname has to be obvious?
If you’re planning on having more kids, would you still want to use Charles for a boy? If so, I personally wouldn’t want a Charles and a Catherine sibset, even if they’re going to go by non-C nicknames, so I would probably avoid Catherine to keep Charles as an option.
I like the suggestions others have made of making Mavi from a first/middle combo like Mattea Violet or similar.
Cassie is also a traditional nickname for Catherine.
There is a character in a Margaret Atwood story who goes by Ren, short for Catherine and I thought it was a really nice nickname. I think spelling it Wren is too far of a stretch and spelling it Reine is just confusing. Ren or Renn makes sense to me and is clear on how to pronounce.
What about choosing only one grandmother to honor and using Mavi or Wren (or another uncommon name) as the other name?
Catherine Mavi Nieman
Wren Joanne Nieman
Piper Catherine Nieman
I know choosing one grandmother is really hard when they are both wonderful women–I have that exact same predicament! But using only one will give your daughter more flexibility and there is always the chance that you will have another girl.
I agree with swistle, perhaps your naming style is more traditional names with unique and spunky nicknames. So on that note, I think Catherine nn Wren and Charles nn Arlo are charming pair.
I have to comment that I do much prefer Wren spelling as to Reine which I immediately thought it was pronounced as rain. Reine looks like a made-up, we are trying too hard to make something unique (please take no offense to that) whereas Wren is an actual name, people immediately know the spelling and pronounciation if she ever choose to continue with this name rather than her full name. Plus Wren and Arlo look great together.
I say DO IT!! Good luck!
So many others are weighing in on Catherine/Wren that I think your remark that you’re unsure it’s what you want and call for other suggestions is being a bit lost. I also notice that you never really say that your husband loves this name or is on board with it, though that’s implied when you introduce the idea of Mavi.
I’m also puzzled by why a potential boy was readily named before birth, but he’s adamant about not wanting to do this for a daughter. (It may be that it’s just easier to decide on a name for the gender other than the one coming–it’s a pretty common theme in the letters here).
I think you’re being a little side-swiped by nicknames, too, maybe putting the cart before the horse? Choosing nicknames ahead of time, rather than letting them naturally develop, may be one of those things where opinion is evenly divided, but it’s such a leading part of your query that I’m tempted to suggest you each make two name lists: one of nicknames you like, and another of given/formal names you like, and see if that yields some new ideas or obvious crossovers. Or eliminates names such as Astrid, with no obvious or easy nicknames. As an exercise, it might be clarifying.
Based on his like of Orla, I’d suggest Cora.
Based on his like of Astrid, and yours of Violet, Scarlet, and Juliet, I’d suggest Bridget.
Based on his like of Piper, I’d suggest Ruby or Margot.
Based on his like of Emily, I’d suggest Lorelei.
Based on the sounds in Mavi, Vivienne, Violet, and Emily, I’d suggest Evelyn.
Love the suggestions from another commenter of Mary Vivienne, Matilda Violet, etc. as a way to arrive at Mavi, though I very much agree with Swistle that either as a name or a nickname Mavi is going to require ongoing spelling/explanations…..
And last, I wouldn’t jump on deciding a middle name. All indications are good that you may need to reserve it as either a peace offering or a compromise of some sort, and it’s a great place for that kind of flexibility.
I’m a bit surprised to find myself saying that I really like the name Mavi! I don’t think you would have to do a ton of explaining of it. Just a simple, why we liked it response. If I met someone with a baby named Mavi I would definitely think it was unusual, but still cute and easy to pronounce.
Renna and Kitty are both traditional names for Catherine.
If you really like the idea of Mavi (but husband doesn’t care for Mavis or Maeve), do you fancy Maven?
Let’s suppose you have two children, but both are girls… would you be happy to pick another girl name like Catherine or Mavi? Is there another relative you’d want to honor? Or would you want something more esoteric? The same question applies if you had two boys. Would you want something similar to Charles? Swistle often emphasizes finding your naming ‘style’, and this is the simplest process for me.
Since your child is due in October, do you like seasonal ties in the name? Asters usually thrive in the fall… Astoria might be the sort of name you lean towards. The birthstone for October is opal. The birth flower is Marigold. Opal Catherine is lovely. Marigold Jeanne could have the simple nickname of ‘Mary’ (a bit like Mavi) or the more colorful ‘Goldie’. How playful of a name do you want? Since you have Gray slated as a son’s middle name, do you like a color tie-in for other siblings?
You’ve got good taste. This is the perfect time to refine your joint style (AKA before the baby arrives!). Congrats on your expected little bundle, and best wishes as you find the perfect name. Please let us know what you decide!
This is to address the issue of how to spell nicknames. We dealt with this with our son Malachi, called Ky. We debated how to spell it–Chi would be the “correct” short form based on the whole name, but seeing “chi” by itself and not saying “chee” is just confusing. So then there’s Kai, which is a stand-alone name and most people know how to pronounce it, but it has no connection to “Malachi” at all, and it seems like we are using two unrelated names. So, we usually spell it “Ky” even though that’s not a real name, because it’s phonetic, it’s close to “Ty” and “Ry” and name fragments like that, and if it’s not going to match the full name anyway, we might as well keep it simple! I still wonder sometimes if we are spelling it “right,” but I finally decided it’s just a nickname, there’s no “official” spelling, so if he ever wants to spell it differently (e.g. Kai) he can do that and no harm done.
Anyway, all that makes me want to advise “Ren” or “Renn” as your nickname for Catherine (which I love, by the way)–or even “Rin.” Using “Wren,” like using “Kai” for us, make it seem like it is more of another name–a whole different name–rather than a nickname. People might think “Catherine” and “Wren” are two different people rather than a name and a nickname. And no need to complicate things by using the non-phonetic “Reine.” If you write her nickname as “Ren” or “Rin,” everyone will know how to say it, they will HEAR the connection to “Catherine” when you say it–and you can always change the spelling later if you end up hating it, since it’s not on the birth certificate or anything.
Another gentle vote for nixing Mavi from the list, especially with a surname that sounds like Niemen (lots of consonant-swapping seems possible, e.g. Mommy Vienen or Mahni Meeven, etc.). It reminds me strongly of the name of a tribe or clan, which I’m realizing is because I associate it with Na’vi, from Avatar. It would be hard to duplicate the same effect with other children’s names.
Catherine is beautiful. I’d go with Rin personally, since it’s the truest to the name (and thereby seems least like you actually wanted to call her something different–Wren sends that message to me, especially if it’s used more regularly than Catherine). I’m also a huge fan of letting nicknames develop naturally, if at all, but recognize that’s a minority opinion around here!
I would definitely assume Reine was pronounced reign or ryne.
Good luck!!
I agree that Catherine “Wren” and Charles “Arlo” would make a balanced sibset. If you like the name Wren, then I’d use that spelling; I think it works better than the unknown ‘Ren” or ‘Rin”. Name blogger Abby Sandel — Appellation Mountain — named her daughter Claire Caroline Wren and calls her “Clio”. As Abby explained in her blog, “My wonderful husband has opinions nearly as strong as mine about given names, and so we compromised with “classics on the birth certificate; unexpected nicknames in real life.” It sounds like that would work for you too. And I’ve noticed that other parents are also doing that; for example, Josephine “Posey” and Penelope “Poppy” are two new name pairings I’ve been seeing online.
You guys are spectacular! Thank you all so much!
Swistle’s notes and all of the comments have given us a ton to think over. We are definitely most attached to Catherine and Mavi, Catherine being the front runner. I appreciate all of the feed back on Wren/Reine/Ren. I agree with the general consensus we need to consider siblings in this situation since we are so all over the map.
I will absolutely make sure to write again when our little one arrives!
How about Vera or Wynne? Mavi is the name of a brand of jeans that used to be popular.
I like the name Mavi. I think the name May/Mae would work if you wanted a more traditional, fall back name. However, I just want to point out that I initially read Mavi as may-vee rather than mah-vee. I actually prefer the latter.
Good luck!
I don’t have many suggestions but just thought I would weigh in on pronunciation:
Reine is ambiguous to me. I would probably pronounce it like Reign if I saw it.
Mavi is ambiguous to me also. I would have pronounced it Mavvy (rhymes with Savvy) rather than the way you want it Mah-vee (which i assume rhymes with Harvey?).
Hope that helps to come up with alternative spellings!
I just have to pipe in to say that I’m trying to figure out if at age 37, I can introduce Wren/Ren/Rin as a nickname for MYSELF. I absolutely adore my name, and other than a few years in middle school where I tried out Kat, I have always been a no nickname gal. Also, although I pronounce my own name as Kath-wren, I don’t think I would even notice being called Kath-rin. I would notice a Kath-a-rin or a Kath-a-wren, but I wound’t feel the need to correct this pronunciation.