Dear Swistle,
I love lurking on your baby names blog and am hoping you and your astute readers can help me come up with a name for Baby #2. We just found out she’s a girl, and she is due in mid-November.
Our last name is a real challenge! It’s a one-syllable name that starts with D and rhymes with “fur” (as in animal fur). Because of our clunky last name, I think the first name needs to have a minimum of two syllables, and preferably more, to balance it out. The other problem is that many names become words when attached to our last name (think Bender (Ben), Leader (Lee), Colander (Colin), etc.). This is a bigger problem with boy names than with girl names, but happens with certain girl names, too (Cora becomes “corridor” in some accents, for instance).
Our firstborn is a boy named Sebastian. Things we particularly love about his name: three syllables, doesn’t naturally nickname to anything that sounds weird with our last name, is an “old” name with some historical weight, and has pronunciations in multiple languages so it should travel well with him in the future, hopefully. Oh, and we like the literary association with Shakespeare’s Twelfth Night (my husband and I are both big readers, and I love theatre).
If this baby had turned out to be a boy, we were kicking around the names Julian, Byron, Beckett, and August. We do hope to have three children ultimately, so these are still on the table for a potential future boy.
As for a name for this baby girl, we both love the name Joanna. It has been a long-time favorite of mine, for many of the same reasons I love Sebastian (literary/theatre associations, a name with a long history, will travel well with its multiple pronunciations). And my husband is enamored of the idea of calling her Joey or Jo-Jo as a nickname. He likes girl names with a masculine nickname. However, it dawned on me the other day that one of the names we always joke we can never name a baby is Jan(n)a, because she’d be Jana Dur…do you hear it? Is Joanna Dur just too close to the same association as Jana Dur? I’d love to think that extra syllable and the O nixes the broom closet association for anyone but overly-critical me, but now that I’ve heard it I can’t unhear it. My husband is also concerned that people would call her “Jo [Dur],” which sounds an awful lot like “Joe Dirt”, the title of a David Spade comedy circa 2001. Obviously that wouldn’t be an association for her peers, but it probably is for many of ours (and it’s not a positive association, in my opinion). What do you think? Do we need to give up on the idea of using Joanna? We really do love it…
Our runner-up name (which is actually starting to become more appealing in my eyes) is Louisa. I like it for most of the same reasons I like Joanna. I have also always liked the name Lula, and think it could work as a nickname for Louisa. My husband also likes the name a lot, and likes that she could be Lou or Lula. (I do realize that Lou [Dur] is “looter,” but that doesn’t bother me, mostly because how often do you actually hear someone being referred to as a “looter”? It’s just not a common word, I don’t think.) I wonder if Louisa is just going to be super polarizing, though. I definitely don’t need everyone in the world to love or even like my child’s name. Sebastian has turned out to be pretty polarizing, with plenty of people telling me how much they adore it, but others–typically relatives from the older generation–struggling with it. I think Louisa is lovely, and if it’s going to get a mixed reaction similar to Sebastian, I am fine with that. But is Louisa a Bertha/Gladys/Lois? (In other words, is it an old lady name that is still firmly an old lady name and that’s going to get primarily a “Why did you do that to your child?!” reaction? I am not sure I want to be that much of a trailblazer!)
Here are some other names we seriously considered but ultimately vetoed:
Rosemary (we both love this one, but my husband doesn’t think he can get past the Rosemary’s Baby association; we are still very seriously considering it for the middle name slot)
Charlotte (just can’t handle how popular it has become in our region–our son’s name has turned out to be more popular than I would have liked, and Charlotte is way more popular than Sebastian around here; this is also a front-runner for the middle name slot, though)
Layla (husband likes this one a lot, but it is such a different style from Sebastian, and is a bit too trendy)
Wilhelmina (husband thinks it’s a mouthful, but does like the nickname Minnie)
Rosanna (seems like it should be a perfect mash-up of Rosemary and Joanna, but I just don’t like it for some reason…maybe the Toto song ruined it for me)So, thoughts on Joanna and/or Louisa? We still have approximately 20 weeks to go, so I’m also open to other suggestions of long names with the potential for masculine/androgynous/peppy nicknames.
Thanks so much!
Ashley
I can definitely say Joanna Dur so that it has a hint of janitor about it, but I have to deliberately say it to the wrong rhythm to get there: jo-ANNa-dur instead of joANna (*slight pause*) DUR. And even doing that, it still only sort of sounds like it. Plus, as I understand it after being corrected embarrassingly in conversation by someone who held that job, the job title is now custodian (though that helps little if the word janitor is still in regular usage).
If the name were Jo Dur, the movie Joe Dirt would never have come to my mind—but then, I don’t have any memory of hearing about that movie, though I must have at the time.
I don’t think Louisa is a Bertha/Gladys/Lois. The names Louise and Louisa have come up many times around here, but I just checked the archives and Bertha/Gladys never have. (I couldn’t check Lois because the search results included all the Eloises.)
Now let’s check the Social Security Administration’s data base to see the current usage of the names. Here’s how many new baby girls were given each name in 2013:
Louisa: 241
Louise: 196
Bertha: 26
Gladys: 69
Lois: 78
So I wouldn’t put Louisa in the same category as Bertha/Gladys/Lois—and the number of times I’ve seen it on other parents’ lists makes me think we may see more of it soon.
On the other hand, neither would I put it in the same category as Sebastian: in 2013 there were 7,495 new baby boys named Sebastian. Louisa hasn’t been in the Top 1000 since 1969, but the name Sebastian is in the Top 50 now: #45 in 2013. Girl names of similar popularity to Sebastian would be Arianna, Scarlett, Claire, and Alexis by ranking, or Evelyn, Natalie, and Grace by birth numbers. Evelyn seems like the best name of the group for comparison: it’s a popular vintage revival that has raised a few grandparent eyebrows.
Let’s look at the name Joanna, while we’re at it. It was #342 in 2013; 938 new baby girls were given the name; another 557 were named Johanna (Johanna was #531).
The name Josephine is more similar to Sebastian: it was #160 in 2013, given to 1,996 new baby girls. And Josephine would be a very nice option, if it meets the other preferences. Sebastian and Josephine seems like excellent sibling names to me, and Josephine eliminates the janitor issue if not the Joe Dirt issue. You’d still have the nicknames Jo and Joey, and you’d add Josie and Fina.
Similar to Louisa is Eloise: it was #338 in 2013; 944 new baby girls were given the name.
Or Eliza: it was #200; 1603 new baby girls were given the name.
I think all this discussion makes it look as if I’m leaning away from Joanna/Louisa, but actually I think both are great names and great candidates for this baby, and I don’t think any of the issues raised are enough to rule them out. But I feel from your letter as if you might come down on a different side of that decision.
We recently made a list of longer girl names with short boyish nicknames for another post, so I’m going to copy that list here:
Antonia/Toni
Augusta/Gus/Gussie
Bernadette/Bennie/Bernie
Calista/Cal
Colette/Cole
Danica/Danny
Francesca/Frankie/Frank
Georgia/Georgie/George
Georgianna/Georgie/George
Josephine/Jo
Katherine/Kit
Louisa/Lou
Philomena/Phil
Matilda/Mattie
Theodora/Theo
Thomasina/Tommie/Tom
Veronica/Ronnie/Ron
Winifred/Freddie/Fred
Cole Dur turns to Colder, Danny is getting uncomfortably close to Dander, Theo Dur turns into Theodore—but after that I start to feel like I’m reaching. For example, I suppose Mattie could turn into Matt and then Matt Dur could sound like Matter; I suppose Phil Dur might sound like filter, but not much teasing potential there.
Name update!
Hi Swistle,
I wanted to thank you and your readers for your help in naming our baby girl. Louisa Hazel was born on November 8th. We settled on the name Louisa shortly after writing to you. I think I just needed to hear from others that our choice wasn’t too unusual. Her name suits her perfectly, and when we announced her name reactions from friends and family were overwhelmingly positive. So far we just call her Louisa, although her big brother calls her “Baby Weeza,” so that has caught on as well. Thanks again for the help!
Ashley
P.S.-A picture is attached.
Frankly, I wouldn’t worry about Joanna or Louisa with your last name – both are lovely and the problems you raise seem to be a stretch at best.
However, I absolutely love the suggestion of Josephine. It does seems more similar in style to Sebastian and has more nickname options. Josephine Charlotte D– is beautiful.
Although Julien is on your boys list, it think Juliet Rosemary D– is another excellent option for you with the Shakespeare connection. Jules or Jude as nicknames do not seem to pose a problem with your name.
Again borrowing from your boys list, Augusta is another good option. Sebastian and Augusta. Augusta Charlotte D–. Gus or Gussie
Finally, although I can’t think of a literary connection, I also like Francesca for you. Francesca Rosemary D–. Sebastian and Francesca. Frankie or Fran. It doesn’t seem to pose any problem with you last name.
Have fun picking a name!
I think Joanna and Louisa are both good choices for you. Like the previous commenter, though, I do love Josephine as an alternative to Joanna if you need one. Rosemary is a favorite of mine. Pretty and underused. I’d put Susannah in the same category if you don’t mind repeating an initial. Neither have a boyish nickname, though.
Romy as a nickname for Rosemary and Sukie or Zuzu for Susannah, while not boyish, are playful and fun!
My daughter’s name is Louisa. She’s 3, and we have never had any kind of a bad reaction about her name (to our faces, anyway!). Sometimes we hear, “Oh, that’s not a name you hear often,” or “I had a great-aunt Louisa,” but those are said in a more fond sort of way rather than a ‘I-can’t-believe-you-did-that-to-your-child’ sort of way. Really, the reaction we get most often is that people are pleasantly surprised to hear the name on a child.
I do like Swistle’s suggestion of Josephine for you, though. It’s one of our choices for baby #2.
I was actually really surprised to see that the numbers for Louisa were so low. I know a Louisa who is about eight, and it hadn’t occurred to me that her name is unusual. I think it’s a lovely name and surely due for a return to popularity (i.e., more Evelyn or Grace than Bertha or Gladys).
I wanted to throw out Lorelai, nickname Rory. Awesome older name with a current sound, not super popular, long with a short boyish/androgynous nickname, and doesn’t make any words when combined with the last name.
I love Josephine and Louisa for you. I wanted to name our newborn daughter Louisa, nickname Lola, but hubby nixed it. I agree with Swistle that Louisa is a name that will become more popular (although it has a long way to go to become as popular as Sebastian), has lots of nickname options, and a literary tie. Our daughter’s name, Marguerite, is similar in style so I suggest it as well.
Oh dear, now that I’ve heard “janitor” I can’t unhear it when I say the name “Joanna Dur” out loud/think it. Maybe it’s my East Coast accent?
At any rate, if it is also happening to you, I think you should let the name go.
Josephine is just as beautiful (actually, I think more so), more stylish, and besides Jo also offers the nickname Josie, in case she wants something more feminine down the line. I also think it chimes with Sebastian a little better.
On the other front– Louisa is extremely stylish to my ear. Sort of cutting-edge. Not at all in the category of Bertha, etc. But “Lou Dur” does sound awkward to me as a name.
Rosemary– it is too bad the association with the book/film is too much as I like this one best of all with your surname.
Have you considered Rosalind, Rosamond, or Rosetta? Rosalind has a nice Shakespearean connection that would tie in with Sebastian.
Actually, for that reason alone I love Rosalind in your context!
Other Shakespearean lovelies that sound ok with Dur:
Bianca
Cordelia
Imogen
Juliet (Jules is a nice boyish nickname)
Viola
These might be too flowery for you, but it’s a nice starting place!
Before I even got to your front runners I was thinking Viola. Twelfth Night!!! But then I read on and realized that like Joanna, with enough accent manipulation you can get from Viola Dur to Violator. Except….really? I pronounce it VYla, so I guess like an earlier poster noted regional accents might come into play. These nickname potentials are minimal to me, and unlikely to happen on any large or unforgiving scale. Go with what you love!
I think I like Louisa best of all your choices. I know a little Louisa and it does not seem like an old lady name on her– I was surprised when I found out how uncommon it was. I think Lou Dur is a little bothersome, but it depends on how you will use the nickname. My daughter has many nicknames, and one of them is Lu, but we never use this with her last name. There are other nicknames that we do use with her last name. Since you prefer a longer name with your last name, you probably won’t use a one syllable nickname with her last name anyway so it won’t be an issue.
One small modification that could get you a bit further away from ‘Jana Dur’ would be using Johanna instead of Joanna. It opens up a few more nickname possibilities. It’s less popular than Sebastian but I don’t think it’s a difficult name for people due to its similarities with Joanna and Hannah.
I think Joanna is a beautiful name. The only reservation I have with it on its own is that it might seem dated – like a “mom name” to kids now. Looking at the SSA data, its highest ranking was #88 in 1984 and it’s been declining ever since (it’s now #342). So it isn’t on the same level of Jennifer in terms of past popularity, but to my ear, if someone currently mentioned a Joanna, I would expect her to be 30+ years old. I don’t know if this makes any difference to you, but for what it’s worth, Louisa and Sebastian (and Johanna as I suggested above) all sound fresher and/or more timeless to me. This may of course be different from region to region, I just thought I should mention it as food for thought.
I completely agree that Johanna is much fresher than Joanna. It sounds great with Sebastian and eliminates the ‘sounds like janitor’ issue. I love Johanna Charlotte Dur for you. FWIW, I also like Lousa.
Love the suggestions of Josephine and Juliet! I think that three syllables sounds best with your surname. Other ideas: Julianna, Juniper, Olivia, and Samantha.
I love both Joanna and Louisa, but after you mentioned it, I can’t get over the janitor and looter references. I understand your husband’s concern with Jo Dur/Joe Dirt, but that movie isn’t a cult classic like Tommy Boy, Super Troopers, etc. so I sincerely doubt that anyone will make that connection.
I think Josephine and Francesca are FANTASTIC suggestions. I also really enjoyed another poster’s suggestion of Lorelai/Rory. I have a similar girl naming style to your husband and I think it’s so fun. Best of luck to you!
I think both Joanna and Louisa are unexpected classics that would be lovely for your daughter. Neither one is at all like “Bertha”. As long as you eliminate the worst of the rhyming sounds with your last name, I think the sound issue will become one of those things that seemed like a big deal during the naming process, but doesn’t really occur to you later. The “anna” sound is very on trend, and “lou” and sounds similar to “louise” are on the cutting edge and already popular in many other countries. (Eloise – while not exactly the same sound – is jumping up the charts quickly in the U.S.) In general, many baby names popular today will sound “old” to your parents generation. They were the mom and grandma names in their day, and parents aren’t always aware of what sounds fresh to their children and grandchildren, so I wouldn’t worry too much about their reactions. Many of the other names listed here are very lovely as well, and if you like them, go for it – but don’t let other people talk you out of what you love. There’s also no good reason to choose a name simply because it has the same level of popularity as your son’s name, partly because popularity varies so much by region and where you live in that region. I personally think Louisa works slightly better with your last name, but I think Joanna is nice too.
Louisa and Joanna are lovely names that work well with your last name, though I agree with a previous poster that Joanna is more of “mom” name to my ear. But if you can’t get past “janitor” and “looter” (which is probably why you’ve written to the wise Swistle), then it’s OK to discard those names for something that doesn’t create such an association. I was immediately drawn to Swistle’s suggestion of Eloise. It pairs so well with Sebastian, and I agree that 3+ syllable name works best with your last name. Perhaps Rosalie, Annelise, Caroline, or Penelope?
Joanna is lovely, if a bit dated for me. I don’t get janitor no matter how much I try. Joe Dirt did not occur to me until you brought up. Grown ups should get over it & her peers aren’t likely to know about the movie, so I think tease potential is pretty low. I’ll add that if Jo is only a nickname, you could just keep it a family nickname. Meaning everyone at school will likely refer to her as Joanna anyway.
If you still aren’t sure about Joanna, I think Josephine would be a solution. No janitor but you could still use Jo or Joey. If you can’t get past the Jo Dirt, you could also use Josey or Fi as nicknames. It also seems like a better style match with Sebastian. I think they are both vintage revivals, while Joanna is still a bit Boomer generation.
Louisa is not Gladys! It will get some raised eyebrows, especially from the older generations. But they’ll get over it. Though, I honestly do hear looter more than I do janitor or Joe Dirt.
I love all the comments above! I just had a fun time thinking about other mash-ups of Rosemary and Joanna, or at least close-ish names, so I thought I’d put them here (you’ve probably already thought of them all, too, but they’re still fun and might strike you as new if someone else says them?):
-Anna Rose (I like it as a two-name first name ..but I suppose it could be a first & middle?)
-Maryanna/Marianna (has a bit of the classic/vintage/old lady feel without being in the Bertha, etc. category)
-Marianne (okay, this has a bit of a middle-aged woman feel for me .. in the category of Judys/Karens/Lindas ..but not sure if that’s true all around or just the people I happen to know?)
-Mary Rose
-Jomary/Jomarie (somehow I know that’s a name, but I’ve never heard it on a person that I’ve met?)
-Joy Anna (if you want to go “Duggar” ..but I’ve always thought her name was so pretty! and, this takes things a step away from Janitor as well–though I don’t think it’s a problem to my ear)
-Hannah Rose (not quite a mash-up ..but Hannah is such a beautiful, classic name as well!)
-Rosalie/Rosalia
-Marietta (with the trendy/grandmotherly “Etta” nickname without being too popular..)
-Rosetta
-Annemarie
-Jolene (so cute on a little girl!)
-Josette/Josetta
I agree with the other commenters. Joanna doesn’t flow that well with your last name, also I feel like it is outdated, especially paired with a spunky Sebastian for a brother. I do really like Louisa and feel that it is definitely NOT an old-lady name!! Out of your two favourite names, this is hands-down my favourite!!
Other names to consider:
Rosetta. I love this name. I love using Rose or Rosie (I also love Etta but not sure with the last name.) I also love Rosalind but also doesn’t flow very well with your last name with the double “D”. What about Rosalie?
Josephine and Francesca are fabulous suggestions. Love the many many nicknames that go with these PLUS they pair wonderfully with Sebastain.
I also like Juliet for you. We have a Juliet and absolutely love her name. We have received sooo many wonderful comments about it. Plus you can use Jules or Jet for a nn as well.
Since you like Joanna, what about Georgianna? You could use nn George, Georgia, or Georgie or Anna. Love these names as well.
Good luck and keep us posted!!
Oh… I also love Frederica (Freida or Freddie) and Theodora (Thea or Theo).
Great suggests pro and con… The thought that came to me was to add a little something to the names you love to distance the cons.
Johanna- to me, the added emphasis of the H breaks the rhythm so close to ‘janitor’
Eloise- I like the hard consonant ending, breaks the rhythm from your last name. Something about the ‘a’ of Louisa that strikes me as sing songy- which might yet be a pro to you.
Still, great choices, good luck!
Like others, I just don’t feel like Joanna really ” goes” with Sebastian. Louisa is a closer match (definitely not too old ladyish!) but still not quite there for me.
From the suggestions, I love Francesca, Imogen, Eloise (but maybe Eloisa instead to get closer to Louisa?). I also like Johanna a lot.
Other ideas: Valentina, instead of Wilhelmina – Winifred?, Cressida, Iona, Lavinia (nn. Vinni).
Good luck!
I second the earlier suggestion of Johanna. I also like the suggestion of Rosalind! As mother to one of the Louisas born last year I have to give that my full endorsement. It is certainly not an old lady name – unlike my other top contender which my husband vetoed, Agatha. People are pleasantly surprised by her name. It’s both familiar yet uncommon. I had assumed her nickname would default to Lou but instead grew organically from our three year old’s pet name for her: Ouida and Ouisa.
I like the Josephine suggestion, but also thought of Juliette. I like both or these better than Joanna.
I think Louisa is a lovely name that is more in line with classic names that are making a quick rise in popularity. Other names that I find in a similar category would be Harriet with a nn of Hattie. Or Hazel. Maybe you would like either of these names?
I’m going to vote for Louisa. To me, it seems more sophisticated and better suited for a sister of a Sebastian. There’s also a literary connection via Louisa May Alcott.
I see Joanna (or Joanne) as “mom” or “grandma” name in the same vein as Lisa or Debbie. It might be a regional thing but growing up, at least five of my friends had mom’s named Joanna/Joanne (I’m in my early twenties). I just looked on the SSA baby name site and it definitely looks like those two names peaked a few decades ago and are declining in popularity. I don’t know if that’s important to you, but I think it’s something to consider.
Good Luck and please let us know what you pick!
I just wanted to clarify that I know Joanne isn’t the same name as Joanna. However, mom’s name is Joanna and you would not believe the number of rude people who continuously call her “Joanne” even after being corrected. It’s a real issue that comes up with the name (it’s probably more pronounced with older generations who remember Joanne as a top 100 name but I would still take this into consideration).
I was going to suggest Bianca, too! It comes with the nickname of Bee… although it might sound like ‘beater’ with your last name.
Hmmm… Beatrice is also from Shakespeare. Tris or Beatty or Betty would make good nicknames.
Estella would be lovely. Essie and Stella are cute nicknames. Sebastian and Estella. Nice!
Renata could also work well. Renny or Nat give your husband that masculine nickname, and it has the long AY of Layla. It’s still completely classic and pairs well with Sebastian. Renata Rosemary is a charming alliteration! Her syllables would have a 3-2-1 balance, very calming.
Best wishes as you anticipate your sweet girl’s arrival! Please let us know what you decide!
When I think “Lou Dur” I don’t think “looter” … I think “lewder.” Sorry.
I would be less worried about Lou Dur sounding like Looter, and more worried about it rhyming with Loser.
However I still think Louisa is a lovely name and there are other nicknames you could use, e.g. Lulu or Louie. Or use Lou as the “at home only” nickname and she would go by her full name at school.
Good luck
Be careful with spelling/pronunciation of Johanna… I immediately think of Johann Sebastian Bach when I see those names together. Not necessarily a bad thing!!!