Nicole writes:
We are on our Third Baby (yikes) and having a precious baby girl. We are between Caroline and Vivienne? I love both names and am caught in a pickle:). Caroline is classic but Vivienne is fresh and has a great nickname Vivi. Our boy (4) is name Cole Brian and daughter (2) is name Payton Charlotte. Would LOVE any help/suggestions!!!! Thanks SO much!!!
Both choices seem at odds to me with the style of your first two children’s names. Cole and Payton are both contemporary surname names; Vivienne and Caroline are both first names of long standing. Vivienne and Caroline are both currently exclusively feminine, while your first daughter’s name is unisex (in 2012, the name Payton was given to 2918 new baby girls and 587 new baby boys; the spelling Peyton was given to 4447 new baby girls and 2065 new baby boys). These aren’t the sorts of things that MATTER-matter, but it’s something to take into account if you’d like the sibling names to coordinate; your first two children’s names coordinate very well.
Since Payton’s middle name Charlotte coordinates in style with Vivienne and Caroline, I’d be more inclined to put those on the list of middle-name contenders, and look for something else for the first name. Without a surname it’s difficult to suggest possibilities, but this is the sort of style I’d be looking at:
Avery Caroline; Cole, Payton, and Avery
Bailey Vivienne; Cole, Payton, and Bailey
Brooklyn Josephine; Cole, Payton, and Brooklyn
Ellery Vivienne; Cole, Payton, and Ellery
Hadley Caroline; Cole, Payton, and Hadley
Kinley Margaret; Cole, Payton, and Kinley
Morgan Violet; Cole, Payton, and Morgan
Rowan Abigail; Cole, Payton, and Rowan
Ryleigh Vivienne; Cole, Payton, and Ryleigh
Sydney Caroline; Cole, Payton, and Sydney
Taylor Vivienne; Cole, Payton, and Taylor
If I were choosing between Caroline and Vivienne, I’d be more likely to choose Vivienne: its current usage feels recent, and more compatible in style with Payton and Cole; Payton and Vivi seem more like sisters to me than Payton and Caroline do. It also catches my attention that Cole and Caroline have a lot of letters in common.
I might also suggest Vienne or Vienna instead of Vivienne: it seems less frilly, and you could still use the nickname Vivi. Cole, Payton, and Vienne.
Between the two choices, I find Caroline more in line with Cole and Payton. This is probably just because Caroline shares so many letters with her siblings, along with being straightforward to say and spell, while Vivienne seems quite French and frilly to me. I think Vivian pairs quite well though.
I also just adore the name Caroline.
I agree with Caroline being the better match for Payton. Caroline + Payton seem like they could both be family names, maybe a tinge southern U.S.
Payton and Peyton are very familiar as girls’ names at this point. I don’t think pairing it with a more classic female name, like Caroline, is any more problematic than sisters named Erin and Elizabeth, or Kelly and Katherine.
I agree with Swistle. When I first read the headline to this post, I assumed Cole & Payton were both boys and the new baby would be your only girl. Between Caroline & Vivienne, I think Vivienne is the better match because it at least seems more current in usage, while Caroline seems much more classic (think Elizabeth, Charlotte, Katherine & William).
Swistle’s suggestion of Vienna seems spot on to me. Sounds like Vivienne, but with usage patterns & style much more similar to Payton & Cole. Avery & Taylor are also very good suggestions. I’ll also offer Hollis, Aubrey & Emerson as suggestions of names that seem to “match” Cole & Payton.
If you do decide to go with Vivienne or Caroline as a first name, I’d suggest using a more modern/unisex sounding middle to balance Payton’s name. Vivienne Avery or Caroline Hollis for example. That way both girls will get a modern/unisex name combined with a more classic/feminine name.
I am curious why you you are interested in classic feminine names after using a unisex name for your older daughter. I do think think Caroline works much better with Cole and Peyton than Vivienne does.
Swistle’s response is spot on.
But I started thinking about the whole issue of sibling names “fitting” together stylistically. I think in some ways, the fact that this has become an issue is the result of modern, minimalist families–most of us only have 2 or 3 kids these days, so if one has a name that doesn’t fit, it sticks out as a naming anomaly. Whereas my grandparents, who had 11 children, had nearly 2 decades where their naming style evolved naturally–they were newlywed immigrants to the US, and while their first few children had classically French names–think Yolande, and Ludivine–the youngest children were given names like Robert and Alice. Still French, but with a much easier crossover into American culture.
If there’s only a couple of kids, and one’s a boy and the other a girl, it’s not as noticeable if one has a classic name and the other has a nature, surname, or trendy name. I think it’s when there’s only going to be a couple of the same sex child in a family that really different styles begin to seem accentuated. Or worse, maybe people wonder if the parents were oblivious to the whole issue. In a family of three with two girls, wildly different styles can potentially set up a situation where each wishes they had the others name. Whereas if the styles are the same and they don’t like it, at least they can commiserate. (Of course, when the kids grow up, usually no one’s the wiser.)
Still, what Swistle’s offering is full disclosure. She’s someone who thinks a lot about names and has counseled many hundreds of families on this score. Even if a family ultimately decides to go with a name that seemingly doesn’t fit with their previous style, at the very least they will have been alerted to the fact that others will probably notice and wonder what they were thinking.
If you have two kids, how can one name really stick out as an anomaly? Of the two, which is the anomaly?
I normally think Swistle is on the money, but I disagree on this one. If the parents like Vivienne or Caroline, why not?
To me, Swistle’s response highlights some of the worst aspects of the naming crowd. This idea that a name’s value or quality is primarily as part of a set of siblings seems silly. A child is mostly considered as part of a sib set (1) in childhood and (2) by his/her family or family friends. Hopefully, the scope of the child’s life will extend far beyond this, and in these other contexts how well his name matches those of his siblings really doesn’t matter. I think children should be given a name chosen for them, not one that suits parental ego regarding having a perfect set of sibling names.
I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with me about: no one has said anything about names being valuable only as part of a set of siblings, or about parental ego; and I specifically said in my post that sibling-name coordination doesn’t matter unless it’s something the parents prefer. Answers to the letter-writer’s question are welcome; attacks on the community at large are unhelpful.
Very nicely said, Gail!
When there’s 2 kids of the opposite sex, it seemed clear that what Gail was saying was it is perhaps not quite as big of a deal if the children have different styles of names. Like Cole & Vivienne – different styles but not as noticeable. It also seemed clear to me that Gail pointed out the anomaly occurs when there are 3 children, 2 of whom have similar styles of names but the 3rd does not. Such as Anna, Katherine and Harper. Or, Jacob, Katherine and Harper. I think this scenario is worse because the 2 sisters have such startling contrasts in names.
I believe this community of name enthusiasts is so helpful because it points out the discrepancy for the parents’ consideration, and they can choose what to do with that information!
Another suggestion might be Sidney, which is a French girl’s name (like Vivienne) that feels a bit more unisex (like Payton). The original French spelling eliminates the extra Y (in Sydney). It is recognizable and easy to pronounce, and easily avoids a nickname (like both Payton and Cole). I think it is a perfect match for your other two names.
Cole, Payton, and Sidney.
Between your top contender, I’d choose Vivienne (nickname Vivi) because it feels much “fresher” than Caroline. It could also be spelled Vivian, which I think fits better with Cole and Payton.
Cole, Payton, and Vivian. Cole, Payton, and Vivi.
Also, I would always pronounce Caroline as “care-oh-LYNN” rather than “care-oh-LINE” at first, if that matters to you. I’m from the Midwest. If you want to use Caroline, nickname possibilities include Caro, Carrie, and Linnie (pronounced “lynn-ee”, assuming you were pronouncing the name the same way I would). I’d choose Linnie, to go best with your older two.
Cole, Payton, and Linnie.
I think Swistle has raised great points.
I love the previous poster’s suggestion of Sidney. Cole, Peyton and Sidney is great!
I agree with Swistle 100%. In my opinion, a sibset of Cole, Payton, and Caroline/Vivienne just doesn’t fit well together.
I really enjoy the suggestions of Sydney, Aubrey, and Avery. One person said that Sydney avoids an obvious nickname, which I disagree with. People will definitely call her Syd, but it will just be up to her (and you!) whether you encourage this or not.
I also thought, after reading the title only, that you were having your first girl.
I don’t think either Vivienne or Caroline is necessarily better as a sister to Payton. I like the suggestions of Avery and Sidney are good.
To me, a sib set having matching names isn’t super important.
I love the name Vivienne and that’s the name I would pick if I was in your shoes. I like the nick names it provides (Vi, Vivi…) and I also like the French feeling. Caroline is a nice name, it’s just not my favourite.
I think it might be cool if you chose Vivienne Caroline as the full name because both girls would share a “C” middle name.
Caveat: I have an obvious girls name and my sister has a totally gender ambigious name. No one every mistook use for brother and sister and the issue has never come up.
I agree with you, I don’t find sibling name matching to be hugely important. How it sounds with the surname matters more long term.
I’d go with Vivienne, but spelled Vivian. Vivian used to be unisex about a hundred years ago, and even into the 1950s it was used more often for men. So that kind of fits better with Payton. At the same time, I doubt many people who aren’t into names realize nowadays that Vivian used to be a male name. So maybe it’s moot.
You don’t give your surname… I’d really base the choice on which (Caroline or Vivienne/Vivian sounds better with the last name). After all, your daughter will be part of a group involving her siblings for only the first 20ish years of her life. She’ll spend all the years beyond that as an independent person. Pick whichever makes for the most flattering full name.
Exact;y what I’ve been thinking: instead of using the frilly French Vivienne, why not the straight forward, formally male, still sometimes seen (or remembered) as unisex, Vivian.
Oxford Dictionary of First Names: Vivian – female, occasionally male. Originally a boy’s name, from an old French form of the Latin name ‘Vivianus’ (probably a derivative of ‘virus’ “alive”), but now more frequent as a girl’s name.
Vivien – female. Earlier taken as a variant of of the boy’s name ‘Vivian’, but now also used rarely for boys. This spelling was quite common in Old French. Its use as a girl’s name in the English-speaking world was influenced by Tennyson’s ‘Merlin and Viven” (1859). This name from Arthurian legend may represent an altered form of a Celtic name… The actress Vivien Leigh was christened Vivian.
Vivienne – French feminine form of Vivien, used in the English-speaking world an an unambiguously female form of the name.
Great breakdown! Thanks, Patricia.
I agree with the points that have been raised by Swistle and others about neither Caroline nor Vivienne fitting stylistically with Cole and Payton, but I just wanted to add that if these are the names you love for this baby, I don’t think it’s a really big problem in the scheme of things – I think it’s mostly something that stands out to people now because now it’s still hypothetical. None of the four names is drastically more or less popular than the others, none stands out as more or less pronounceable in English-speaking places, and once the baby is born, that will just be her name and you and other people will get used to saying it along with her siblings’ names, and it won’t stick out. (And to be totally honest, I personally adore the feel of Caroline and Vivienne, so I’m loathe to try to push you in another direction.) Also, you don’t mention whether this is likely to be your final child – if you’re thinking of having more, giving them names that feel more like Caroline or Vivienne than like Cole and Payton would make Caroline/Vivienne’s name stick out even less. Just food for thought.
As to Caroline versus Vivienne, which I think are both lovely, lively, versatile names: I love all the potential nicknames that Caroline brings (others have mentioned Carrie, Caro and Linnie; I might add Lina and Cara). The point I have in favour of Vivienne is that I noticed that all the letters in Cole’s name are contained in Caroline, which I didn’t love since Caroline and Payton don’t have a lot in common (ending in an “n” sound seems like a tenuous link), but I don’t know if that’s important to you or how many people would notice it. Vivienne is really pretty as well, and I like the possible Vivi nickname. I think it’s hard to go wrong either way here. Good luck!
I also was confused by the title — but unlike others I didn’t know if it were two boys, two girls, or one of each! The style of the first two are very andro/unisex trendy. I’m not all about sibsets *matching* but I am about them *coordinating* & neither Caroline nor Vivienne coordinate. Swistle did a good job of listing some trendy uni names. Personally, I like Avery or Emery. There is also Quinn, Rowan, Rory, Teagan, Ellis, Marlowe, Reese, Riley, Finley, Elliot. Vivienne would be my choice as the mn.
I’m going to second (third? fourth?) going with Vivienne but spelling it Vivian. I think it looks more tailored, which really compliments your other children’s names. Cole, Payton, and Vivian seem more natural to me, and you still get all the great nicknames. Of course (call me crazy, or biased) I have always been bothered by the -enne spelling of Vivian. I know several Viviennes under 5 in my circle of friends/acquaintances, and I always want to over-pronounce the name: “Vivi-ehhhnnn” and follow it with a snooty head-toss. Yes, I know that’s incredibly specific. But you know how -leigh endings make you mentally say “lehhyy” in a just-been-to-the-dentist sort of slur, instead of “lee”? Vivienne just trips me up mentally.
I can your point and it made me laugh a little out loud. But for a counter view, I don’t think Vivienne is that snooty– I just pronounce it viv-ee-ANN (emphasis on final syllable– sort of rhymes with Mary Ann) versus Vivian which I pronounce VIV-ee-in. I definitely prefer Vivian.
I do the same thing you do with spellings like Ryleigh, Ashleigh, Kayleigh though! Ever since childhood I’ve had to stop myself from pronouncing those spellings “layyyy”.
This made me laugh really hard! love people that can make me laugh via internet writing. thanks!
Happy to have been of service my good ladies *snooty head toss*
I can see both points of view, but my immediate assumption seeing Cole, Payton and Caroline/Vivienne was that Cole and Payton were boys. People who know the family won’t make that assumption, though. It may never be an issue. That being said, I thought Swistle’s suggestions were lovely, especially Hadley Caroline. I would also suggest Camryn, Brinley, Berkley, Savannah, Sutton, Scarlett, Adair, Averil, Piper, Austen, Paige.
I would love my kids’ names to ‘match’ more but in the end, you’re naming a child with another person. My middle one, the odd one out, was my husband’s choice because he loved it more than I loved any other name. Now that I have a less popular, more unisex name picked out for our next girl, I’ve decided to stick with it because I love it, and I hated not being completely sold on the last one. For me it’s better to enjoy the names I’ve chosen rather than have them match. And if people question the gender, no big deal. :)
That said, I like Vivian/enne best, but think Caroline suits better, in my humble opinion. Having two names you love is a great problem to have! All the best with your little one!
Payton/Peyton seems to be one of the more ambiguous names now in use, being given to 7,365 girls in 2012, but also to 2,523 boys. Thus leaning more to the female side, but when one hears the name often producing the result of not knowing whether its a girl or a boy. I would definitely advise using another name like Payton rather than a classic girls-only name like Caroline or Vivienne. Cole, Payton and Caroline/Vivienne sounds like two boys and their little sister, while Cole, Payton and Sydney (for example) give the possibility of boy, girl, girl.
Also, since the girls are only 2 years apart, it would seem best, all around, to give the younger sister a name that’s similar in style to Payton, with Caroline as the middle name:
Payton Charlotte
Sydney Caroline
Cole, Payton and Sydney immediately sounds like a boy and two girls to me.
Another possibility is to pair the two little sister’s names by choosing another name beginning with a P. You’ve considered Cole, Peyton and Caroline, with two children having names beginning with the same letter, but you might want to consider pairing the two girls’ names by same first letter instead. For example:
Cole, Peyton and Piper
Cole, Peyton and Polly
I see that I’ve misspelled your daughter’s name and should have written:
Cole, Payton and Piper
Cole, Payton and Polly
I also want to add that there is nothing inherently ‘incorrect’ about giving one daughter a boyish name and another a name for girl’s only. I’ve always thought that the most important choice of naming — more so than popularity, sibling matching, who else may have named their child that name, etc. — is choosing the name that the parents love the most. You must have loved Cole and Payton the most when you chose those names for each of your older children, and I’m guessing you still love those names. If Caroline or Vivienne feels like the ‘right’ name for *this* baby girl, then one of those names is what I’d choose (instead of a name that you don’t like nearly as well, but makes Payton’s name seem to more clearly indicate that she’s a little girl). Of Caroline and Vivienne, I’d probably choose Vivian (or Vivien) “Vivi” since the other two children have shorter names: Cole, Payton and Vivian.
Best wishes! And I’m sure we’d all love to hear what you decide.
Piper – great suggestion!
I agree with Swistle but just wanted to add my vote for Vivian rather than Vivienne if you do end up deciding on that name. I do think that Vivian actually does go quite well with Cole and Payton. Vivienne just seems wildly different – more of a fancy frilly name than Cole and Payton. Even though it is the same name, the plainer spelling makes it seem less frilly and more in the style of Cole and Payton.
The discussion about sibling names being of the same style is interesting. I try to think of it from the children’s perspective. Will Payton be ultra-feminine and desperately wish she had a more feminine name like little sister Vivienne or will little Caroline be more unconventional and wish she had a less classic name like big sister Payton? Worse yet, will the girls be subtlety type-cast – Payton as the tomboy and Vivienne /Caroline as the girly-girl even if that might not be their natural inclination?
I have known sisters – one with a top 10 name and the other with a much less common and both spent their childhoods hating their name and envying their sisters name. And probably, the worse scenario was the the youngest of three sisters where the older two had very feminine names and the youngest had a boys name because the parents wanted to use the boys name they had always loved and would not be able to use. This youngest sister felt pressured to be the family athlete when her nature was more musical and theatrical. At 21, she dropped her first name and legally changed to her middle name and moved across the country to get away from the family pressures.
I love the name Caroline. It’s my favorite so that’s what I would pick without consideration of sibling names. If I were to consider the sibling names, I agree with Swistle and I would consider something more unisex because I like sibling names to coordinate. I particularly like Avery, Ellery and Sydney.
Personally, I don’t think it’s the most important thing in the world for sibling names to be the same style. It matters, and it’s definitely something people will notice, but I don’t think it should be a deal-breaker if you like a name in all other aspects. Out of your two choices I’d choose Vivienne, just because it’s a little less common than Caroline. They’re both pretty names, though, so you can’t go wrong!
If you decide you want to match the name to your other children’s names a little better, I’d suggest something with the same classic, feminine charm as Caroline or Vivienne, but a little less frilly. Maybe something like:
Anna
Sarah
Cara (sounds like Caroline)
Rachel
Alice
Marie
Amelie
This is interesting! The names Caroline and Vivienne are very much “my style” of girls names, but I’m not sure either work with the other siblings’ names. I would just think that Cole and Payton are both boys if I heard the names all in a row. But maybe that doesn’t bother you, in which case I don’t think I can help you because both are lovely names. :)
I really like Swistle’s suggestion of Avery – Avery Caroline is very nice. Payton & Avery makes a cute pair of sister names.
What about Harper? Both Harper Caroline and Harper Vivienne sound nice. And I think Harper has moved firmly into the girls name category, hasn’t it?
To me, Caroline sounds sensible, capable, dependable. Vivienne sounds effervescent, bright, feisty. If I were choosing for myself, I’d prefer to be Viv.
When I first read the post, I also assumed Cole & Payton were brothers and you were having your first daughter.
I am the sort of person who likes sibling names to go together, but that is me personally. So I wouldn’t choose either Caroline or Vivienne with your particular sibset, even though I love both those names! I really love Vienna and think that’s a great suggestion instead!
I think ultimately, this discussion is that there is nothing inherently wrong, or even better, about using Payton for a daughter or Vivienne for a daughter. It’s just that in your particular situation, when you have a Cole, Payton and Vivienne, there is only one child whose gender is not implied: and that is Payton. (Or worse, Payton may lean boy). Nothing makes Payton a girls or a boys name. But the circumstances surrounding Payton makes it lean either way. If I saw a Harper and a Payton, I would probably assume sisters. If I saw a Payton and a Vivienne, I would assume a brother & a sister.
Do you like Harper, Paige, Sloane, Everly or Ever, or Truly?
Good luck!
Just stumbled across this thread and wanted to say I have a 5 year old son named Cole. His little sister is 2, and her first name is Vivian and her middle name is Caroline. We have very similar taste! I think Cole and Vivi are a perfect match!