C. writes:
We could use some help in the eleventh hour!
I am due any day–tomorrow–but think baby girl might hold out for another week or more. We are trying to decide whether to use my last name for her middle name (I didn’t change my name upon marriage. It is very similar to the word “martini”) or a more classic sounding middle name. Last name would be husband’s name: something very similar to Noyes (pronounced moist with no “t”).Given the recent post I read on the Louise who didn’t like her name and is aiming for a mid-twenties change, I am worried about our daughter not having a second option in case she doesn’t dig her first name. However, it also could be really nice for her to be able to identify with me and my side of the family. I am pretty against the following: 1) going by a middle name (I do, and don’t want to inflict that upon her) 2) using four names (my husband does–including both a middle traditional type name and his mother’s maiden name. She didn’t change her name either) 3) using a hypen for our last names; I think it works great for some, but our names together aren’t great and creates a mouthful.
For whatever reason the debate about whether to include my name ends up feeling like: do we give her a more feminine sounding middle name fallback? or help her to be more in touch with her feminine roots? Perhaps this is the exploration of my “feminist” beliefs. I recognize that this is a bit absurd because my last name is my father’s. I grew up with my mom (a product of the 60s in the South wishing that she had not changed her name).
Of course in addition to all this, we are having some pre-birth naming jitters. Phoebe has been the first name forerunner for quite some time–we love that it is traditional without being crazy popular. Perhaps as the equivalent of marriage cold feet, we can’t help feeling like there is some name we are missing. We would love your insight regarding mother surname usage and or/any name suggestions that might help us to feel a little more a-ha and a little less blah. Here are some options we’ve had on our list based on the information above:
Phoebe Elizabeth (my aunt’s first name) Noyes
Phoebe Martini Noyes
Juliet Posey (grandmother’s maiden name) Noyes
Elizabeth Martini Noyes nn Libby
Juliet Martini Noyes
(Obviously Phoebe Posey Noyes is out given the “PP” problem you have oft explored)
If your surname were literally Martini, I would consider its alcoholic drink association a major factor—so I will hasten to remind the readers that the name is not actually Martini but instead a surname-sounding surname with a pleasant sound.
While I do think it’s nice to have a middle name to fall back on if the first name doesn’t work out, only a small percentage of people actually do choose to go by something other than their first names—and then not all of those people choose to go by their middle names. I think this falls into the category of There Is No Such Thing as Choosing a Name That Works for Every Possibility. I do think it’s wise to take those other possibilities into account, and I do think “having another name to fall back on” is a point in favor of a first-name-type name in the middle-name position—but I don’t think you have to weigh those too heavily, considering the relatively low likelihood of them being issues.
Another thing we can’t know ahead of time whether she is the kind of girl who would find it pleasing to have her mother’s surname as a middle name, or whether she is the kind of girl who would find it pleasing to have another standard girl name there, or whether she is the kind of girl who would first feel one way and then end up feeling the other way. Since we can’t know, we can try to guess based on what we think most women would feel, or based on what we ourselves would feel—-but again, this falls into a category of unknowability: you’ll have to choose what you prefer to give her, based only in part on your guesses about what she’d prefer to have.
And which WOULD you prefer? That is, for a moment let’s set aside the issue of what SHE would prefer, because we have no idea. Which would YOU prefer? When you picture writing her name thousands of times on thousands of pieces of paperwork, which name do you think you would feel happiest to be writing?
You haven’t mentioned if you’re planning other children, but that’s something I would want to take into account. Are you seeing this as a one-time thing, where you use your surname as a family middle name for the first child but then you won’t continue that for each subsequent child? Or does this set the pattern, so that deciding to use your surname as a middle name means that you will do the same for all children?
You mention that your surname is actually your father’s, and while I understand the gist of this argument and I think it’s good to keep it in mind, for myself I do think of “my father’s” surname as my own: I was born with it, and it belongs to me just as much as it ever belonged to him—and just as much as it would belong to me in a matriarchal system where it was “my mother’s” surname. Also, I think it’s different in your case because the surname in question is also CURRENTLY your surname. That is, it is your daughter’s mother’s surname RIGHT NOW, and will be as she is growing up. She’s not going to be thinking, “I have my grandfather’s surname as my middle name,” she will be thinking, “I have my mother’s surname as my middle name and then my father’s surname as my last name.” Furthermore, that arrangement will make sense to everyone who knows your family, and will even help to alleviate some of the minor hassles of a parent having a different surname from his or her child’s: schools and doctors and so forth will look on the paperwork and see a situation that makes sense to them. Which is not to say that we should set things up to make sense to the people who deal with our paperwork, but rather to say that it’s one point in favor of the idea.
I also like your idea of giving her as a middle name the first name of another woman in your family (or a surname such as Posey, which works as a first name). This ties her to your side of the family while giving her a middle name she could fall back on if she wanted to.
I’m assuming you’ve already ruled out options such as giving the girl children your surname and the boy children your husband’s surname or vice versa, or alternating back and forth between your surname and his, or in fact giving them all your surname—so I will mention that only in passing.
There are two other possibilities that occur to me:
1. You could give her your own first or middle name as her middle name. This ties her to you without using a surname you might think of as your father’s, while also giving her a standard feminine first name as her middle name, and while also releasing you from a feeling of obligation to do the same for all future children. Downside: she’d be unlikely to consider this a fall-back option if she didn’t want to use her first name.
2. You could give her your mother’s original surname as her middle name. This ties your daughter to your side of the family, and has appeal if it was your mother who reared you and if her use of your father’s surname was regretted. I suppose we could say that it was actually your mother’s FATHER’S surname, but in a patriarchal society that’s the potential spin we’re stuck with if we want to use family surnames.
I think it’s a good idea to keep in mind that she will be tied to your side of the family no matter what name you give her. Names are a nice way to symbolically communicate family connections, but they’re only symbols: the real connections happen separately. She will identify with you and your side of the family because they’re half of her extended family, whether or not she has a name from that side.
If you would like to know what I think I personally would choose in your shoes, I think I would give her my own surname as her middle name, and I would do the same for all subsequent children. I would already be unhappy to be the only one in my household family with a different surname, and so I would want my surname represented in my children’s names as well. (However, I would be sad to give up the fun of choosing a middle name, which is why in real life we went your husband’s parents’ route of giving them my original surname as a second middle name.)
Name update! C. writes:
Hi, Swistle!
I wanted to provide an update on my October post. Your timing was perfect. I started having contractions the day after I emailed you. My husband and I ended up sitting in the hospital just after the birth reading your great comments and those of the readers. What excellent points everyone made–they helped us in our final discussion. Although I still have moments when I wish that I had gone with four names, I overall feel good about the decision to go with Phoebe Elizabeth Noyes, no inclusion of my surname. I appreciate your comments about not knowing what kind of girl we will have and what she may or may not like about her name. We do hope to have other kids and I can feel okay about none of them going by my surname as we find other ways to honor my family (like with Elizabeth– my aunt’s name). I am grateful to you and all who responded, thank you! I am attaching a pic of baby Phoebe!
My first choice would be four names. First Name, Middle Name, Mother’s Surname, Father’s Surname. But since that’s not an option I would chose First Name, Mother’s Surname, Father’s Surname. And like Swistle, I would chose that for all future children so that everyone shared a name.
I debated (a lot…with myself, as my husband told me I should do whatever I wanted) about changing my surname when I married. Ultimately I did so only so that my future children and my husband and I would all share the same name.
A dead friend who kept her last name used it as middle name for both children. I think it works very well if you are willing to commit to that naming convention for any future kiddos. And, I love Phoebe!
Full disclosure: We gave my daughter my maiden name as her middle name. However, I moved my maiden name to my middle name when I married, and my husband changed his middle name to my maiden as well. So we are all FIRSTNAME MOM’SMAIDEN DAD’SLAST.
I’ve never met anyone, ever, who regretted having their mother’s maiden name as a middle name. I can imagine it happening if that relationship becomes very toxic, but I certainly hope that doesn’t happen to you! I wouldn’t worry about her hating her name… if she’s wants to change it that badly, she’ll use a nickname.
For Phoebe: Pip, Pippa, Pheebs, Bebe, or even Pheonix.
For Juliet: Jules, Julie, Juju, Lee, or Leta.
Plus any number of nicknames not derived from the name itself. I knew a guy in high school named Chris who went by Boomer all his life, and legally changed it when he turned 18.
Don’t stress! It’s normal to freak out about this at this point in your pregnancy.
Wait, you know someone who legally changed their name to Boomer? Hilarious.
I really like the idea of you giving her your surname as a middle.
I was also going to suggest that you consider possible nicknames as the “back-up” plan for her. In addition to Pip, Pheebs, Pippa, etc. I think Bea and Fi (fee) work for Phoebe. Depending on how close your maiden name actually is to Martini, it could lead to Marti, Marta, Tina, etc. And don’t forget all of the organic name possibilities that could arise based on something completely random, like the Boomer mentioned above.
I would go with your surname as hwe middle name (and the middle name of all subsequent children). But that would influence my choice of first name as I would want to ensure it is very flexible. So if your daughter does run into the situation of not likely her given first name as much, there are variations she can use. Of the names you listed, I think Elizabeth provides the most options as she can go by the full name or Liz, Lizbeth, Beth, Lizzie, Bess, Bessie, Betty, or Ellie. Juliet provides some options – the full name or Julie or Jules. I think Posey provides few alternatives so I would not use it. Phoebe seems to be the name you love the most so would there be logical alteratives if at some point your daughter does not like the full name. Phee, Pheebs, and Bee are possibilities.
I’m currently pregnant and we are planning to do FIRST NAME MOMS SURNAME DADS SURNAME for our little guy, with the middle name (my surname) being the same for all future (very hypothetical) kids as well. I imagine I might have some last second jitters about it (we’ve got about 2 months to due date at this point), but I feel, on a gut level, very very good about it as an idea/solution/fit for our family. And I’m someone who CHOSE to go by their middle name starting in college, and I still feel good about it– I figure he can always pick a nick name he likes if he ends up not loving his first name. Good luck!
I know a few kids with their mother’s (current or former) surname as their middle and I think it works well and would be my first choice in this situation. But if you end up deciding not to do it, I like that the other middles under consideration are family names from your side.
I have two middles, one my mom chose and one that is her maiden name, and that’s what we did for my son – he has two middles, one we chose for him and one that is my middle name. I love it personally and it hasn’t yet caused any trouble for me or for him – a combined 37 years of experience there, fwiw.
I will add the dissenting voice to the comment above, who says no one ever regrets having their mother’s surname as their middle. I have my mother’s surname as my middle name, and though my mom and I are close, I don’t love it for the following reason: my parents are divorced now, and though my mother had never changed her surname, it now seems very important to her that I always, always use my middle name so that both parents’ surnames are represented. I feel a lot of pressure to use my full name on everything. My sister does not have her surname as her middle name, so she doesn’t have this problem, and I admit to feeling a tiny bit sad (it doesn’t keep me up at night or anything!) that my sister got a first, middle, and last name, whereas I basically have a first name and two last names. (Plus, when my mom puts our names in writing, she always puts my sister’s name first and then my full name — like Susan and Jennifer Smith Jones — so that it appears that we both have the two surnames. It’s just a little awkward.) So I guess my takeaway here is that if you are planning to have more children, I would use your surname for them as well.
My middle name is my mother’s maiden name, and I gave my daughter my maiden name as her middle name. I would lean towards giving her your maiden name as a middle. I never minded having a lastname as middle name, and even though I never loved my first name (sarah, very popular, no good nicknames) I don’t think I would have changed it to go by my middle name even if I had a “girly” middle name…
Good luck!
I honestly think you have to go with YOUR preference in this situation. There’s no predicting your future daughter’s preference no matter how many people weigh in with theirs. She could have strong feelings one way or another or no feeling in particular on her middle name. But if you feel comfortable with your choice that’s one factor you can control. Your enthusiasm for your pick will go a long way in shaping your daughter’s opinion of her name. If you go with your favourite option and tell her all her life how much you loved her name when you chose it, she’s bound to form a positive association with it. When I started asking questions about my name as a kid, my mom told me that my middle name was the name of a lady she met randomly at a friend’s house and that she used it because it sounded good, and all my life I have thought “Yes, I suppose it’s a nice name but it’s an afterthought that just sounded good so….” Go with your favourite and make sure your daughter knows it was your favourite! She’ll feel proud of it if you do.
I see both sides of the argument. I am especially am sympathetic to the above post that says she always felt like she has two last names whereas her sister got a first and middle name. I would consider a “feminine name” inspired by your last name. My maiden name sounds like the word keener. I have considered using a name INSPIRED by this for a boys middle name – Keenan, or Keegan, for example. I know Martini is a drink and is not your exact name, but if your name REALLY sounds like this, it kinda DOES sound like a rare feminine first name. What about Martina? Even if you chose Martini, if she wanted an alternate name she could do Marty.
I thought I posted, but maybe the server ate it? My choice would be Pheobe Martini Noyes. No second middle. No guarantee that she would love her name or even another middle name that you chose. But Phoebe is such a lovely name. Good luck!
I would give her your last name as a middle name. It’s a nice connection to you and your family :)
I’ve always loved the “what’s your middle name?” question (my middle name is my great-grandmother’s maiden name, but it’s a surname that also gets used as a first name and that I find very pretty, so I feel like I get the best of all worlds), and so an important factor for me considering potential middle names for my kids is that I want them to have a good/fun/interesting answer…something that elicits an “Oh?” sometimes, instead of just “Oh.” I probably wouldn’t use Martini for that reason, both because it’s thunder gets stolen if people have already been introduced to you, and because there’s a strong logic behind using it for subsequent children as well, which means that they don’t each get to have their own answer…although I guess from a different perspective you could argue that it would be fun and interesting to be able to explain that you have the same middle name as your other siblings. Based on what are admittedly my own biases, I think Posey, your mother’s maiden name, or a name of a female relative would be great.
I’m so glad this commenter brought this up! I was thinking the same thing about giving your daughter solely your surname as a middle name, especially since it is the name you currently go by (the ‘stolen thunder’ thing–not that she wouldn’t be proud to have that name, but it would be a name everyone already knew, you know?). I’m probably biased, though, because I always wished I had an “Ooo!” rather than an “Oh” middle name myself (nothing too bad–just a very generic middle name that is extremely short, simple, and commonly used)–which is why I was delighted to choose a confirmation [middle] name as a teenager, and since then, it has been the middle name that I use most.
So, for the sake of the ‘middle name question,’ and in addition to what Swistle and some other commenters said about using a unique name + mom’s surname for each child (equality’s sake, a fun family story, plus the fun of getting to choose another name!–but, this is a name-nerd talking..), I’d vote for the dual-middle-name option as well.
When she married my father, my mom dropped her middle name and plugged in her maiden name and then took my father’s surname.
When I was born, I was given my mother’s maiden name as my middle name. They did the same for my sister.
I didn’t like it as a kid. In elementary and middle school, it bothered me because it wasn’t like everyone else’s middle names (Lynn, Heather, Anne, etc.). But then you grow up a little and you realize that it’s actually very special. I like having the tie to my mom, my maternal grandparents and that side of the family. I like that my sister, my mom and I have the same middle name. I like that I feel “equally” part of each half of the family and that my name reflects it.
I happened to end up in a position in the community where I grew up (and where my parents grew up, too) and I put both my middle and surnames on my name tag. It’s been really fun to meet people who know me as one of the “so and sos” — either as a member of my mom’s family or of my dad’s.
Just a take from someone who has had her mother’s maiden name as her middle name for the last 31 years. :)
I’ll never understand it when a woman say that her last name is actually their father’s name. Following that argument, either 1) only men have the right to own their last name, or 2) no one has the right to own their last name except for the single name originator. I believe once someone is either given a name or chooses a name, they have as much ownership of it as anyone who claimed the name before them.
When parents have different last names, I think it is a great idea to have both last names on the children’s legal documents – ether as a hyphenated last name, or with one last name in the middle (not necessarily the mother’s) and one in the last (not necessarily the father’s). So that would get my vote. Good luck deciding!
I’ve been thinking about this today too! I’ll bet it started as a retaliation against women who attacked other women for taking “a man’s” name instead of keeping their own: I can picture someone saying back that the maiden name was just the name of a different man (i.e., the father’s, since it wasn’t the woman’s mother’s surname). Like, they were saying either way it was part of the patriarchal system, so neither choice was Feminist or non-Feminist per se.
Yes. Thank you!!!
I would go with your last name in the middle. My brother and I have my moms last name as our middle (her last name is her maiden). I felt like it was more special to have that kind of a last name, and that tradition is pretty common where I grew up and in my mom’s family. It always felt like my name, not my mom’s name (or my dad’s name either for that matter.). I passed on the tradition to my children also. I am very pleased each time I write their middle names.
Definitely your last name as the middle!
Like Swistle mentioned, very few people end really up deciding to by their middle names? If you want her to have more options, maybe you could pick a first name that is very versatile and has several nickname possibilities: Elizabeth is the perfect choice here — she can go by Elizabeth and Libby but also Ella, Eliza, Beth, Betty, Lisa, Elsa if she ever decides to change.
Phoebe and Juliet are lovely but give her much fewer options (Phee, Fifi, Bee … Julie, Jules, Jude, Lettie).
I think you should stick with ‘Phoebe Martini Noyes’
I have a classic, feminine, honor name as my middle name, but I do not go by this name even though I don’t like my first name. It is an uncommon, never spelled correctly, always mispronounced first name. I don’t love it for what it is but I love it because my parents gave it to me!
So giving up something that is important to you just in case she doesn’t like her first name is not going to guarantee that she’s going to then like her middle name and go by her middle name.
Also I have always regretted not using my last name for my son’s middle name. We all take a chance when naming our children. I don’t think you should sacrifice the names you love!
Might be late, but just to chime in…my aunt did exactly this. Kept her own last name and made it the middle name of all her children. They are all perfectly happy with this arrangement, although yes, it does mean you don’t get to have any fun choosing a middle name yourself! Still, it gives them a connection to that side of the family and means my aunt’s name/family/background is as much a part of the names they have as their father’s.
Swistle, middle name and surname issues come up a lot. I know there are a lot of confounding variables but I’d love to see some polls of your readers’ experience of the various things, e.g.,
If you go by your middle name, how much do you like/dislike that? how much of a nuisance has it been? have you/would you consider legally changing …
If you have two or more middle names, …
If you have a hyphenated surname …
People could be encouraged to elaborate in the comments, since such things may be regional, generational, gendered…
Yes, great idea! I’d especially like to hear from readers on what it’s like to have two middle names, as it’s something I’d like to do for my hypothetical children.
For the question at hand, I vote 4 names: something like Phoebe Juliet Martini Noyes. If the 4 names are truly out of the question, then definitely use Martini as the middle name!
I love Phoebe!
My sister and I both have my mother’s maiden name as a middle name. Since she took it too, all three of us share a middle name.
When my husband and I were deciding what to do with our names (for ourselves when we got married and for our future kids) this option never came up. I didn’t actively hate my middle name , but I was always so sad that I didn’t ‘t have a “real” middle name and that I had to share my middle name with my mom and sister. So when we got married, my husband and I hyphenated our last names, kept our middle names as is, and when our daughter was born we gave her a middle name that was all her own.
I was shocked when my sister told me that she was planning to give her daughter our family’s last name as a middle name. I had rejected that idea so vehemently and assumed that she’s always felt the same frustration with having to share a middle name. On the contrary, she’s always kind of liked it, wanted to carry on what my parents started, and figured it was one less name to have to decide on.
To each their own. As Swistle said, there’s no way to know how your kiddo will feel about it until they grow up and let you know.