My brain is almost fully occupied with frets and excitements about the the possible new house. It is such a consuming topic/situation. I find it helpful to use Coping Thoughts such as “People move ALL THE TIME” and “We would not be the first people to make a real estate mistake” and “This is a NORMAL LIFE EVENT.” Also right now we are in the delicate situation of wanting to be excited about the house (if we do buy it) but not wanting to get TOO excited (in case we don’t/can’t buy it), so I am adding “It happens A LOT that people want a particular house but it just doesn’t work out” and “There would in fact be some RELIEF involved if that happened.”
Paul meanwhile is NOT fretting. He has entered Full Love Phase about the potential new house. He is almost frantic at my reluctance to make fast giant decisions. I think at this point I could say “In addition to the housecleaner and the dog I want a ‘pool boy’ and maybe even also a pool,” and he would say “Yes yes yes yes fine can we call the agent now??”
It has made me think a bit about Couple Dynamics. In our marriage, it seems to me that I get my way about almost everything, because those are the things Paul doesn’t care about; but then when he DOES care about something, he always gets his way. I am trying to think of a time when he wanted his way about something and didn’t get it, and nothing is coming to mind, though I guess I would have to ask him about that.
Another issue at play here is that I am the Sensible Financial One in our relationship, even though you might not know it from all the stuff I don’t need from Target. But I’m the one who handles the bills; I’m the one who tries to shop carefully and find good prices to save us money over the long run; I’m the one who pushed hard for vigorous early payment of student loans; I’m the one who had us make financial decisions based on one income even when we had two incomes (because the plan was to go to one income once we had kids); I’m the one who said we should send tax refunds and other windfalls directly off to the mortgage company. It’s one of my major contributions to the shared work of our household. But Paul is the one who earns the bulk of the money.
You can probably see how these two dynamics together can make things a little tricky in situations where a decision is heavily financial but it’s something Paul cares about. I don’t want to give the impression that Paul is pressuring me or trying to force me into something I don’t want to do, and I am all set on discussions of shared finances with an at-home parent and so forth. It is more that it is something interesting to think about, along with how weird it is to make most of the major decisions of one’s life (whether to have children and how many to have, where to live and how) WITH another person.
This is it! It is So hard to make all of these life decisions with another person but in some ways I would find it more difficult on my own. That’s my particular personality though. Also I love your writing!
As someone who is the planner (in matters financial and in everything else) in our couple dynamic, I feel your pain.
As someone who is jealous of people who fell in love with their magical dream houses, I feel Paul’s.
Yes – the main problem I find with ‘couple decisions’ (& arguments) is that there isn’t a permanent third vote to break any stalemates. As it stands, you could, at your most ungenerous, constantly feel that one person has categorically won and the other has definitely lost – an excellent path to resentment.
That situation sounds so familiar. My folks like to buy used cars, and they will shop for months or sometimes years to find the right fit. My dad will come close, then back away. It drives my mom nuts!!! She has a policy of not engaging until they drive the car home. They both have veto power, I think, so it’s not like she has no input. I think buying things really stresses my dad out, so her reserves the right to walk away!
Push for all the things that would make buying the house feel right to you and buy the house. The space alone will make you feel rejuvenated. The proximity to things you do will give you time back in your life.
Maybe one of the things you can push for is one more bathroom in one of the smaller rooms of indeterminate use?
I would say “Come to an agreement about the point at which Charmhouse is no longer worth it,” because you need to be able to walk away, not get caught up in getting the house. No matter how much Paul may love the house, buying it is also a business decision.
This is wise advice… and I think a good realtor will help you, here, if you engage the services of someone who is not inclined to sugarcoat things or looking out overly for their commission. In purchasing our first house, our realtor talked us out of one house (not very structurally sound fixer that was adorable). Then when we had an inspection on another house we turned up a lot of things that individually would NOT have been dealbreakers but the owners were actively lying and deliberately covering up all of it (furnace not working, oiltank in lawn, electrical work needed, septic in disarray and needs replacing). While we’d have cheerfully dealt with any of those things individually, the combination and especially the active deception in all cases made us drop the house, even though we loved it and wanted it to work. (They claimed the furnace was in great working order but they just happened have lost the key to the room it was in, that the septic had just been inspected and was fine but they just misplaced the paperwork, they claimed no knowledge of the oil tank but had covered it up with an inverted gatorade bottle in the middle of the lawn, etc. TOTAL lying jerks. I was SO MAD.). Our realtor did a lot of walking us through the findings: if you turn up issues that are being disclosed in an inspection that’s one thing, if they are total surprises it is another, and if they are actively being covered up it is yet another thing. Our realtor, an older butch lady lacking the air-brushed polish one usually associates with realtors, had a lot of choice words about the situation that were not suitable for children to overhear, and she wrote us a congratulatory card containing a torn up check when we withdrew our offer.
Anyway, I think this entire dynamic of couple decision making is really where a realtor really should help: I think a lot of what they DO for a living is emotionally coaching couples through making difficult decisions that they do not get a lot of practice making. If you haven’t hired a realtor yet I think you should inquire about whether they’re someone who would talk you out of buying this house if it were a bad idea, even knowing that the alternative is you staying in your house and not getting them a commission at all. I think there are ethical realtors out there who are not just in it for themselves and the big paycheck. (My impression has been that this is often very correlated with cars that the realtors drive, fwiw.)
Also try to get an inspector who likes and specializes in old houses: I think this will give you a lot of comfort and perspective, as s/he will in addition to an objective report of all the issues also be able to give some subjective opinions about what things a handy homeowner can tackle and what things are bigger issues. I think inspectors of old houses often do it as a labor of loooooove and they will really enjoy explaining every aspect of everything they’re looking at to you, so your inspection takes three times as long as it technically needs to. This will help you feel well armed with information as you go into the difficult decision of to continue with the purchase offer or negotiate down or withdraw. Again, a good realtor should help hook you up with inspectors who are both talented and experienced with this particular type of house.
(We actually bought our current and ultimate house from friends without using a realtor at all. It meant we had to do a lot of the decision making with starry heart eyes about the house.)
oohhhh. I think I love your realtor! What a great job. My experiences have NOT been anything like that but I have a cousin who I think would exemplify the ultimate “wants you in a good house and for you to love it, even if it takes a lot of work and will talk you out of bad houses” realtor. She is really good about that stuff (and her car is a CRV). But she lives FAR AWAY and wasn’t a realtor when we bought our current house and house prices at the moment are RIDICULOUS in my area (metro boston) where a shoebox is at least $400k.
Wow, what a great helpful comment. You are a great story teller.
Thank you! And the realtor is truly a gem. THe best part that I left out because it’s not really relevant to my central point was watching this realtor, a woman pushing seventy at the time, sigh, roll up her sleeves and kick down the door to the locked up furnace, while the inspector, a man of middle age who knew her well sort of cackled and we sat there holding our baby wishing to be even a little bit as badass someday when we grow up. I mean, I am not in the kicking down doors business now as a fairly sporty lady half her age! I had no idea that happened outside of Hollywood movies!
I guess what I’m saying is make an offer on the house because doing an inspection can definitely provide enough entertainment to justify the cost even if the house offer needs dropping like a hot potato.
My ex and I were in a different set-up: I was the one earning all of the income AND I was (and remain) the organised, practical one. In that sense, then, I got my way pretty much all the time because I was the one budgeting and paying anyway. Where he got his way, though, is with non-financial things. For example, we had a great deal of difficulty choosing a name for our first daughter. Getting pregnant, staying pregnant and producing a live baby were huge problems for us, so she was a kind of “miracle baby”. And when we eventually found two names we liked, we gave them both to her. Fast forward 2 years, and “miracle baby” number 2 arrives, and finding a name was even more difficult. In the end, we had it narrowed down to 2 variants of the same name. I preferred one (more English-sounding), he preferred the other (the French version: he’s French and we live in France). He got his way, only for me to discover (from his ghastly mother) that in fact that French version of the name was the name of an ex-girlfriend of his, whom he’d adored. I was furious! And every time he got his way there was something similar – perhaps these were all early indicators that things wouldn’t work out!
In our relationship, I’m the larger earner and also the one who tends to say, “sure” and not ask for things unless I feel really strongly or I really very passionately want something. My husband has a job, but it pays about half of what mine earns.
We are newer in our relationship than you are– we’ve only been together for 5 years, so we’re still evolving how we do things. What I find really frustrating is that I say yes to so many things because I don’t feel strongly about them, but I really wish I didn’t have to fight so hard for the things I do feel strongly about. When we were looking at houses, my husband saw and fell in love with a place that had no internet access, was far from his job, had terrible schools, and had a 40-minute drive to the nearest grocery store. We passed on putting an offer on it because it met NONE of my minimum needs in a house. It wouldn’t have been a good house for him, either, but he was so in love with the place that he waved away problems like how he would probably have to find a new job. It stayed on the market for months, and he kept bringing it up and bringing it up, pushing against my minimums and saying that we should get it and how terrible it was that I was saying “no” and why couldn’t I just bend.
I’m working on taking stronger stands on things more often, because I think that my willingness to acquiesce so much led him to feel that what he wants “ought” to rule when we disagree. And it’s not that it can’t, but– that house thing actually got to where it hurt my feelings whenever he brought up that other place, because it felt like he got so fixated on it that I began to feel really disregarded.
I’m not sure how you and Paul should navigate it from the flip side of the equation, but I would say that whatever you do, it’s important that you handle it with a lot of respect for each other and each other’s feelings.
I am like that also. I’m really easy-going because I just don’t have strong feelings about most things. It makes many things go smoothly, but causes trouble in that I think it attracts the kind of people who must have their own way all the time. They see me as a pushover. Then when something pops up that I do care about and stand my ground, the war is on, and boy does it get ugly.
Fortunately, my husband isn’t one of those people, but I think he does tend to forget that I do have strong opinions, just not very many of them. I expect that when I make a stand, it should be appreciated, like how if a person who always speaks politely starts cussing, you know he’s really MAD. Instead he thinks I’ve just gone bonkers or, as he once made the grave mistake of suggesting to me, that I’m PMSing. It helps to pretend to have an opinion more often just to remind him I can.
So exciting! And also terrifying! And also, rife with potential for huge fighting! In one way I don’t think I can ever move and in another way, moving seems like the perfect way to get rid of a bunch of crap and set up the new house perfectly with only a now-perfectly-curated selection of remaining crap, and keep it that way forever. Shut up, that is exactly what would happen. I haven’t worked full time since we had the kids, and I’m just starting back now, and neither of us are really great at budgeting. We got really lucky with stock options when Angus was little and paid off our house early, so we generally just try not to spend money stupidly and have a talk every few months about our financial picture. We both have areas where we overspend slightly, so we tend not to call each other out on those areas.
I feel like that is actually the ideal set-up, where you tend to make the bigger financial decisions, but Paul contributes more of the money. Because that way, you both have a good sense of power and control over the process.
I, in my fledgling marriage, am struggling with this issue, because I am the Sensible Financial One, but I also contribute more money to the marriage (a combination of a higher salary plus a family inheritance PLUS diligently saving for many years). It’s an icky feeling to say “No, I don’t think you should buy/do that thing that costs a lot of money,” when he doesn’t really have the option to disregard my opinion and do it anyway. Not ideal at all.
So, just clarifying. You’re thinking about upsizing… as kids are moving out of the house?
Once the kids have grandkids, extra bedrooms are even more needed/helpful!
Assuming they do have grandchildren, and assuming they do come to visit, and assuming they stay with Swistle and Paul when they do.
Not trying to be the voice of doom here, but I think it’s wise to figure out which scenarios would make this a good house and which would not, and figure out whether even the Not ones would be OK, or what you’ll do if they happen.
My parents stayed in their house through the arrival of my second child, and then they downsized. Now when we visit, we stay in a hotel, as do my siblings and their kids, and the kids luuurve it: A pool! Froot Loops at breakfast! Watching TV in their room!
It was initially weird for me because I think of visiting the grandparents as staying in the grandparents’ House of Quaint Stuff, but the kids have different expectations. The parent discussion board in DC is awash with people whose families are in conflict over who visits who and where visits should occur.
It is not voice of doom to consider what would make the house a good house and what would not, and what we would do if things didn’t work out as we thought/hoped! But you can feel assured that that’s exactly what we’ve been doing.
OK, but once you go Hidden Passageway, can you ever go back? And what if the dog doesn’t want to move?
(In my mind, you are already in the house. I’m not sure where, because there are so many nooks and crannies.)
*peeks out from secret room*
Also, “Has Swistle really, thoroughly thought this through?” is never a question in my mind, although I realize some of comments may make it seems as though it could be.
I figured out why I’m finding this question so difficult to answer: it’s because it falls into the “So, have you stopped beating your wife yet?” category, where the person being asked the question can’t answer it without either accepting a false premise (that they have at least at some point beaten their wife) or else seeming to get all weirdly defensive over a simple yes-or-no question.
Perhaps it would clarify things for you if you imagine a family with three children ages 13, 13, and 11, finally able to afford to move out of their small cramped starter home into something with a little more space. Presumably it would feel odd to ask that family if they were upsizing just as their kids were moving out of the house, when none of the kids were even in high school yet.
You are correct that the children will continue to age and (pleasegod) that they will gradually move out. This is true in nearly every family, which makes it difficult to figure out when it IS appropriate to upsize. Money is of course a big factor: people tend to have less of it when the kids are small, and more later on, and this was the case in our situation as well. Our realtor says people move on average every seven years, presumably because of issues just such as these. Paul and I have more than seven years left of lots of kids coming and going and needing places to sleep; even Rob still lives here with us five months out of the year.
And there is the future to consider, with adult children perhaps coming back home to visit with their families. Perhaps it is not worth it to have/maintain extra space just to have room for those occasional and currently hypothetical visits, or perhaps it is. Each family has to make their own choice about that, I would suppose. Our plan is to see how we feel later: perhaps the kids will hardly ever visit and/or we won’t feel interested in maintaining that much space, and then we will downsize again; or perhaps we will convert part of the house to bunkrooms for all the grandchildren to stay in on their many visits and close that part off in between visits, and we will have a wonderful time with that.
The “people move every 7 years” thing sent me down a Swistlian rabbit hole of internet research, so thanks for that. (Well, also my HGTV habit and all the people talking about “forever home” vs not)
There is also the possibility that children may want to live at home even once they graduate from college (if you allow it!).
I was one that never wanted to leave and stayed until I was 27!
Thanks for the clarification although the beating your wife analogy went over my head.
Moving from a small cramped house to a house that can accommodate your family well for the next decade or whatever seems like a fine reason to “upsize”. No judgment here. Good luck in all your decision making!
Another reason to upsize when kids are moving out is if the homeowner’s parent or in-law moves in with the family. I don’t know if that’s a possibility for Swistle’s family, but it happened with mine. Selling the parents/in-laws house and putting that money into the bigger house can make a lot of financial sense.
Oh heavens, yes. I grew up in a house with one bathroom for three sisters and two very tired parents. Upsize all you want, parents of adolescents. You deserve it.
There are so many factors to consider when thinking about what our future selves would want. Moving to house where you can walk to things is great when you get older and driving is more of a challenge. Who knows if that will outweigh the size of the place in 7, 10, 15 years?
I think focusing on what is best now and for the net 7 years or so is a good idea. In 7 years, your youngest will be graduating and you can reassess the situation then.
In thinking about now, however, one thing you haven’t mentioned is what the kids think. Do they know? Kids should obviously not have a vote in a choice like this but they should have a voice.
Does moving involve switching schools? If so, I expect William would not be thrilled about that his senior year. In a hypothetical family with two 13 year olds and an 11 year old, I would say move now before they get to high school when the change would be harder.
Do any of the kids have things they are strongly attached to in your current house? Some may have angst about leaving the house they have known all their lives but I expect that can be handled with excitement of new opportunities – hidden passageways, chickens to raise, places to walk to.
So I guess my pieces of “advice'” for what they are worth are base the decision on what your current not future selves would prefer and consider how to make the course of action chosen work best for the whole family.
No school-switching involved! That was one of our bare-minimum requirements: same school system. They all know about the house, and they are various degrees of mixed feelings about it. Everyone (including me, but not including Paul) is distressed to some degree about leaving this house.
How is everybody responding to the DOG OPTION!?!
That is getting Very Positive Reactions, with lots of distracting discussions about what KIND of dog each person wants!
I have been spending a lot of time on Petfinder and Bidsquare in honor of your new house (where I seem to have moved you already, in my mind).
Nice tension breaker!
Ugh, Swistle, I feel you so intensely on this topic. My husband and I are in the planning for/attempting Child #2, and our previous house felt a little too small, especially in a climate where you’re forced indoors for 5 months out of the year. We went back and forth between finishing our basement (which didn’t seem like a wise choice financially or logistically) and moving (which gave me vapors). We found a house which met all of my artificially stringent list (I did NOT want to move), and husband fell immediately and completely in love.
Long story short, we moved. The higher bills/mortgage are still giving me (as the financial person in our relationship) some stress, but I can’t deny that the additional space and nicer neighborhood has been well worth it.
Good luck with the choice…it’s a tough one!
My husband and I are so much like you in terms of finances. He makes the bulk of our money (in the 95% range, although when we got married it was the reverse). He also doesn’t even know how to log onto our bank website to see how much money we have. And I’m the one who pays bills, sets aside extra to pay off loans, etc. In addition, I’ve set fraud alerts on our credit card and bank account to send me emails whenever more than $100 is spent. This was a really fantastic decision, since it saved us when someone fraudulently tried to spend thousands of dollars on our credit card. But it also has the side effect that I get fraud-alert emails whenever he makes any big purchases, which often leads to me asking him if he went to such-and-such store and spent so much. Really, it’s his money as much as mine, but you’d never know it from the way we talk about it!
This is us, too, minus the fraud alert thing. Instead, I do a very detailed budget with special software and track ev.er.y purchase so I can categorize it, so I’m constantly asking, “Did you spend $11.95 at some place called Bob’s Oodles, what was that?” I imagine it sometimes feels like an interrogation, but we’ve gotten very good at it, so that he’s almost never defensive and I’m almost never sounding critical. He’s gotten used to letting me know if he’s going to be eating out or spending a large amount on something at Home Depot, and when he talks about wanting a new $2000 camera I don’t immediately laugh in his face.
Yes! We do a “reckoning.” He’ll go through all the purchases and categorize them on our software budget. When he hits one he doesn’t recognize, I try to remember what it was. Then we look at all the numbers together. Recently, we’ve decided to sit down together once a week just to stay on top of everything. I have to take big yoga breaths and remember that it’s not an interrogation. Usually we both feel relieved after we’ve done it.
I used to be the reckoner and now he’s the reckoner. I never would have expected that flip flop! I imagine it might go back to me again at some point!
I have discussed this point with girlfriends and with my mother: our male significant others don’t care about most day-to-day decisions (when sometimes we wish they would) and yet deep-down believe they should get their way on large decisions.