I have several related questions, and I have forgotten at least one of them, but we are going to proceed with the ones I remember and we’ll see how that goes.
Here is the basic topic: I have a 13-year-old daughter.
And here is the basic thing I am wondering about: leg/underarm shaving.
Oh! I remember the third thing! It was about looking for recommendations for books teenagers can consult to find answers to their own questions, without having to ask parents or rely on the iffy knowledge of friends. Let’s save that one for another day, actually, because I think we have quite enough for one morning, and because I want to make a Reference Post of the other topic so we have all those recommendations in one place. If you put them in THIS post, and then I write the OTHER post, you might feel as if you already said it and don’t want to say it again, and then we’ll lose that valuable input.
In my own childhood, I was very keen to be a teenager and I got ahead of things by reading a lot of books about/for teenagers, and subscribing to Seventeen and Teen and Sassy. So, for example, I was the one who told my mom it was time for me to start using deodorant, and I asked to be taught to shave my legs and then explored other methods (my mom still uses the Epilady I bought with babysitting money and used for 20 seconds), and I was making my own appointments at hair salons and getting my hair feathered, and I was counting days until I was allowed to wear make-up. (I should mention that now, as an adult, I am no longer nearly as interested in hair/make-up.)
Elizabeth is not the same sort of child. She does paint her nails. She has strong opinions about her hair (LONG with BANGS, no she does NOT want to grow the bangs out, stop ASKING her). She has strong opinions about her clothes and is irritated that now that she is 5’6″ it is harder to find shirts with good pictures on them, or shorts in pink and purple and turquoise, or jeans with embroidery. With the possible-but-not-necessarily exception of the nails (MANY little girls like nail polish), those are all still indications of CHILD mode. She does not look for teen books/magazines, she does not ask to wear make-up, she does not have posters of attractive celebrity teenagers on her walls. She does not fuss with her hair or spend much time looking in the mirror.
Here is what I am nervously working up toward discussing with you:
1. She gives all indications of identifying as female.
2. We live in a society where most women shave their legs/underarms.
3. Our particular city is a place where ALL women appear to do so.
4. She is not making her own move to do so.
5. At some point, am I supposed to cue her to do so?
It is swimming pool season, is what I am saying. And I know in some areas of the country, there are LOTS of women with body hair, and that is good and natural and I’m glad to see it. At my own particular swimming pool: NONE grown women or teen girls with natural underarm hair. Literally none. I have seen literally not a single one, and we moved here when Rob was under a year old.
So. If you are a woman who has natural body hair, and your partner loves it, and your daughters are being raised to have natural body hair, and you couldn’t care less what society thinks, then that is LOVELY and also it is a different discussion. You will need to switch your problem-solving minds to Swistle Mode, where the circumstances are different on every point and there is an issue to be solved within those circumstances.
What I don’t want to do is rush her into teen stuff. What I also don’t want to do is leave her untaught and open to remarks. She tends to be embarrassed about this kind of thing, and I don’t want her to be stuck having to ask me for training or figure it out on her own if she doesn’t want to. And I don’t want it to be a nasty remark at the swimming pool that motivates her to start shaving. I would much prefer it to be just a normal thing, like when I said it was time to start wearing a bralette, or time to start wearing deodorant.
It’s just, I don’t know if shaving is the same category or not. Like, I would not say, “It is time for me to teach you how to wear make-up” or “It is time for you to get a fashionable haircut” or “It is time to start consulting magazines about what you should wear.” Underarm/leg-shaving is not exactly in the hygiene category, not exactly in the fashion category. That is: our society in general and my part of the country in particular would say it is hygiene, but I am worried about promoting that view when it is actually fashion. (If it were hygiene, most men would also shave their underarms and legs.) And yet I don’t want to try to make my child the vanguard for social change, at her own expense. Nor do I want to make a Big Deal about this. (Too late.) And I want to make sure she has the information/materials to make her own choices about it.
Oh! I have had an idea. What if I say to her something like, “So listen: in our culture many women start shaving their underarms and legs once they hit their teen years. You’re a teenager now, so I want to show you how and where the supplies are, in case you want to do that.” And I could go over other options I’ve tried, which might make for an entertaining talk while she’s trapped in the car. How about something like that? Does that seem like it gives her the information without pressuring her to do it? I could add a little rant about hygiene vs. fashion.
While we’re on the topic: if you shave underarms/legs, how did you start? Did a parent tell you to, or teach you to? Did friends start doing it, so you started doing it too? Did you get the idea from teen books/magazines, as I’m pretty sure I did?
I think your impulse is exactly right: just describe the circumstances to her, explain that lots of women and girls shave, but she doesn’t have to, most people here do, here are the risks and rewards of doing so or not.
also, check out S-E-X by heather corrinna–the kids should all have it, really ;)
This is perfect.
I was the last girl in my Catholic school to shave my legs and we wore skirts and knee socks down to out ankles every day. I remember getting made fun of and deciding that my I was going to figure it out. My mom was blonde and rarely shaved her legs so she Just Didn’t Get It and resisted my multiple attempts to ask for advice.
I remember the next day at gym when someone called me hairy Mary or whatever and I yelled “I shaved all right?!?!?!” Super embarrassing moment, but also the last time i was made fun of for that particular thing?
Gah middle school sucked.
Anyway I like your plan.
Wow, this is a tough one. I’m someone who does not wear makeup, does not dress up much, if at all, unless absolutely compelled to, and I hate all the “shoulds” that women are subjected to.
However! When my daughter (who is now 25) became of that age (with dark hair like mine and obvious leg hair), I think I said something like, you don’t have to do this, but here’s how I do it, and we sat on the edge of the bathtub and shaved our legs. Normally, of course, I shave in the shower, but I wasn’t going to get naked in the shower with my teen.
I think your approach sounds perfect.
Now that I’m well past menopause, there is virtually no body hair (and sadly, a lot less head hair) so it becomes a non-issue over time, but that’s another topic.
I think your plan of approach is a good one- just make the information and equipment available. Another option for swimming would be a rashguard type top.
Good idea!
Ooh, interesting topic.
My mother has very light, fine brows and not much body hair, while I have the luxuriant eyebrows of a powerful werewolf and body hair to match. My mother was also very concerned that I not “grow up too fast” and did not give me information about or supplies for shaving even after I had repeatedly requested it. Which led of course to me nicking one of my dad’s cheap two-blade disposable razors, locking myself in the bathroom, and hacking my legs to ribbons. Also to me giving myself THE worst 90s brows of all time with tweezers I had furtively purchased using my babysitting money. I think I was about 11 when I shaved my legs for the first time (which seems SO YOUNG to me now!) and 13 when I mutilated my eyebrows. She did however start letting me bleach my mustache when I was… around 10, I think?
ANYWAY It sounds like Elizabeth is, thankfully for her, rocking a little less body hair than I was. I think your proposed approach sounds just about perfect in terms of empowering her with the information to make an informed decision.
A powerful werewolf :D
I always wonder what kind of asylum they would have put me in before tweezers were available. I am a light/thin body hair person but my eybrows! Man, they are impressive. The range! The growth speed! The sheer area covered!
Your approach sounds right. You could also ask if her friends shave to suss out of she has identified any peer pressure. I was getting ready for a pool party and had some underarm hair. My mom noticed and showed me how to shave (so her leading). It was never a “you have to” thing, just “you might want to…” I also read a ton of teen mags, pre-teen years, and learned things that way. I remember being scandalized when someone in my second grade class started shaving! I probably started in 6th or 7th grade.
I was a teenager just like you, eager to be older and pushing my mom to let me do these types of things. Your plan is wise, just provide her the info and equipment and it’s her decision to make.
I got an epilator last year and cried and knashed my teeth through the first few sessions, but now – I would never go back. At this point it just feels like I’m scratching an itch on my legs/underarms. As a teenager though – I never would’ve opted for it.
I remember getting shaving supplies in my Easter basket when I was 12 or 13 (in our house Easter baskets were treated much like Christmas stockings with toothbrushes and stuff but as the oldest kid it was still a little embarrassing!).
All I remember about my mom “teaching” me is that she very firmly implored me to stop at my knees (looking back I think this was her way of deterring me from going “too far” without drawing attention to the fact that some people do shave uh… everything).
I had the American Girl book “The Care and Keeping of You” which if I remember correctly was very much written for girls – contained a lot of info that was written in kid-friendly language. Not sure if it still exists, but I think it would be good for a young teen, especially if they don’t seem ready to grow up quite yet.
I got my daughter that same book-probably 12 or 13 years ago. I thought it was perfect for an 11 or 12 year old girl.
It’s still available–actually, they have two books now–and it’s superb. I have a very early maturer, and it was the perfect book to give her at that age, as it doesn’t talk about sex like so many other books do. It does talk about periods and hygiene in a very age appropriate way, and in just the right tone (IMO) to give the reader the impression that this is all normal and just part of growing up.
I think that instructing her on how to do it, unasked, sends the message, “I think you should do this,” even if you explicitly SAY that’s not what you’re saying. I would say, “In our culture, and in our town in particular, it’s expected that women will remove the hair on . If you don’t, people are likely to tease you about it. Do you want me to show you the different options for doing it?” If you get a yes, THEN give instructions; if you get a no, make sure she knows she can ask you at any time and find supplies in if she wants to experiment on her own. (I was a kid who didn’t like anyone to THINK I cared about such things, but also wanted to shave, so preferred that everyone including my mother just believed that I was naturally hairless.)
Yes, I think make the shaving materials available, mention that you think she’s old enough to make her own decision about shaving or not shaving, and leave it at that, unless it seems like she has questions or thoughts to share. I think it’s lovely that you want to protect her from social stigma and snide comments from other girls and women in your area, but unfortunately this is something she wil have to figure out for herself. Any pressure from you seems likely to make her feel shamed, which is much more hurtful coming from you than from some rude girl at the pool.
FWIW, I shave my underarms and not my legs, but I am a masculine-of-center gay woman, so the “rules” are different for me. (If you’re going to give me a disgusted look, it’s going to happen long before you notice my legs!) I was hesitant to embrace womanhood when I was 13 but that was because there were gender and sexuality things getting ready to erupt, and I was desperate to shut that all down as much as possible until I could escape to college. However, even if Elizabeth is cisgender and heterosexual, there is scientific research suggesting that it isn’t surprising that she is less interested in the trappings of adulthood than you were at her age.
My mom and I had a lot of arguments and she offered up a lot of intrusive and hurtful comments about ways I could change my appearance to please society and her while crushing my own self-esteem. I have no doubt that my experience is a bit of an extreme outlier, but I do think the most helpful thing you can do is listen to Elizabeth and ask what she thinks about this kind of stuff. Being supportive and available and accepting will help her make her own choices with confidence. It will give her a safe woman to talk to when somebody in gym class makes me feel bad for not engaging in a relatively arbitrary cultural shaving practice, and that is way more helpful for her developing a healthy adult self than engineering a way to avoid the other girl’s dumb comment in the first place.
The idea of bringing it up as an option, including discussion of social conventions in different areas, sounds perfect. Besides the safety issue, the social aspect merits taking this under consideration. No one wants to learn lessons from being made fun of in gym class.
My mother had so much difficulty discussing anything body-related. At age 13, I finally locked myself in the bathroom one Saturday morning when she was gone, figuring I could stop the bleeding by the time she returned. I gingerly grabbed my Dad’s razor [p.s. not recommended], gulped, and shaved my legs and underarms. I was so-o-o-o careful, no blood was involved, but it was a scary moment. It would have been nice if someone had offered to show me how.
The tone of this reminds me of my own experience. When my mother was younger, she picked up my grandfather’s safety razor to shave her legs in the bath because that’s what my grandmother did. Well, she sliced her leg open quite badly and it bled profusely. She had told me this story as a youngish child, probably to deter me from picking up razors, and as young children do with scary/gory/intriguing stories of their parents I asked her to tell it to me a million times. The line I especially loved was “Grandma Susie had to tear up an entire sheet to stop the bleeding.” All that is to say, I knew about shaving early and my mother had a great excuse for teaching me well and early. Also, for buying me an electric razor to use instead of a blade razor for a few years as a young teen.
I have a ten year old daughter, as well as an eight year old, and they have very different coloring/hair levels, so I’m poring over the comments here because I feel like I’m going to need all the advice/experiences I can collect to deal. One of the girls’ gymnastic’s teachers is a young woman and she does not shave her underarm hair. I know of at least two more young women in our area who also don’t shave there. I’m glad my girls get to see that it IS actually a choice, more fashion than hygiene.
Yes to all your instincts. You are such a good mom. I started shaving my legs in junior high because everyone else was and my mom didn’t teach me and I just took a DRY single-blade Daisy razor to them and oh my god the razor burn. Even an embarrassing conversation is better than that. I started shaving my pits after a snide remark from my sister and was scarred for years after. Absolutely get ahead of it in a general way…not necessarily saying that she needs to do it, but that you want her to have the tools and knowledge for when/if she decides she wants to.
I like the idea of saying what you suggested–just bringing it up as an option, telling her where the stuff is, offering some instruction if she wants it and leave it there. I wouldn’t talk too much more about it unless she seems interested just because you don’t want to overwhelm her with information before she is ready for it.
I started shaving when I was 13, sort of, because a girl in my class at school talked about it. My mom didn’t know, but when she found out she said I had no need to shave because I have blond hair and M.T. was dark haired. But that didn’t make me feel more comfortable not shaving because: peer pressure. But I wasn’t very rigorous about shaving until…late high school maybe? But I live in the upper midwest, so we only really expose our flesh for about six weeks in the middle of the summer so it’s easy to ignore it most of the year. ;)
I wanted to at that age, but my mother said I couldn’t. So I bought a razor and shaving cream anyways and did it in my bedroom with a bowl of water. I cut my leg so badly that I have a scar to this day (22 years later). Which is all to say, some advice and guidance would have been useful.
Surely her friends talk about, so ask her if she’s interested. If she says no, you’re done. Let her know that if she changes her mind, you’ll buy her whatever she needs.
My girl is similar in these ways, but I did want her to shave. She did not want to. Finally one day she did. Frankly, I think society took care of it. I think hairy pits at the pool got her some choice words, and there was no looking back.
I think I was closer to Elizabeth on the whole thing. I remember going to the drug store with my mom, getting a razor, a woman my family knew who saw us and embarrassed the hell out of me, some basic instructions on how to not cut the heck out of myself, and then being very ambivalent. I don’t remember exactly how my mom presented it, but I suspect “you might get teased” was part of it.
And I did get teased…there was one little asshole who sat next to me in P.E. who took it upon himself to up the ante and require that all girls shave ABOVE their knees too. I still remember being jealous of the one girl who was confident enough to declare that she actually didn’t shave, because her hair was fine and blond and whatever. (Her mom was from South America, I bet she grew up with different beauty standards).
Would Elizabeth be interested in reading about Harnaam Kaur? (https://www.teenvogue.com/story/girls-challenging-body-and-facial-hair-stigma). That might be a very body positive way to start the whole discussion of women’s hair, societal expectations, and what options she has. Thinking back to sitting in P.E. with my t-shirt pulled over my legs because I had shaved but maybe like the day before yesterday and who knew if that was good enough, I think I would have liked a more “you might get teased but they would be wrong to do so” message at the time. My own goal for my daughters is to teach them that they can do anything they want with their hair except call it disgusting. I still shave my legs and pluck chin hairs, but I’m much happier having dropped the attitude of “nobody must know my shameful secret that I have hair on my legs and chin,” in part because of the activism of South Asian women like Kaur.
Adding onto this because I’m reading a lot of “of course she’s aware” in other comments and since I was the queen space cadet in early middle school, I think I can provide the opposite perspective. I matured late, many of my friends were boys or on the socially awkward end of the spectrum, my mom is extremely private, and I remember spending a lot of those years mystified. Girls were talking about different sizes of cups in sixth grade for some reason? I was on the seventh grade cross country team, and staring at another girl’s pits because there was a little bit of stubble, and she mentioned needing to shave and it very slowly dawned on me what she was talking about. An older girl accused me of being a lesbian because I was staring off into space in her general direction while she was changing after P.E. – and again, it probably took days for me to piece together that that was what she was talking about.
My mom’s helpful suggestions of how to be more normal sometimes protected me from being caught off guard in a social situation later, and sometimes annoyed the hell out of me because a lot of this stuff is in fact annoying and fussy and it’s very freeing not to think about it at all. I don’t really know what would have helped me at that point – or how much help I needed – but I turned out ok.
I think your approach is a good one. You should go for it.
That having been said, does Elizabeth have friends her own age? Does she stream music by current pop stars, or watch TV shows featuring teen/pretending to be teen people? I ask because quite a few of the younger celebrities who identify as cis female do not shave their underarms, and also, if Elizabeth takes gym class and has friends, the subject might already have come up and just not been discussed with you. And even in more traditional parts of the country (upper Midwest, South, etc) my sense is that there’s not the same social hegemony we experienced in the 1980s/90s among the younger generation. There seems to be more room for people to do their own thing, possibly because culture has fragmented so much that there isn’t one dominant popular thing in any given realm.
This is a long-winded way of saying that she’s probably noticed her own hair and the hair of her friends. She may just not care. I like that your approach leaves room for that possibility.
In general, I feel like girls just care less about this stuff than we were raised to do. They’re more tolerant of different approaches. I’m super-glad about that.
By her age I was already begging. Since she isn’t I would bring it up ultra casual. Just like this “hey you’re getting to the age where girls start asking to shave. Whenever you’re ready just let me know and we will have a lesson about it okay.” End of sentence. She will either reply “actually I’m ready now but didn’t want to ask,” or she will say “okay” followed by nothing else which indicates she isn’t ready at all.
I like this the best, particularly if it’s paired with a few razors and whatever else in the bathroom drawer.
Yes tobthis and other similar approaches! Also, maybe let her know that, if she decides to shave, a lesson is a good idea since it sounds like most of us have scars from unsupervised shaving attempts. 😀
This is so fascinating. I love that we all get to benefit from your questions.
I like your approach: there’s this thing, some people do it, some don’t. Do what you will, feel free to ask questions at any time.
I will also say, I was never taught/told, but I knew. I think there might be the same knowledge these days, but the kiddos might be less drawn to do it, just to conform. Ya know? I’m (and have been for a while) totally half assed about the whole thing. Sometimes I do it (and I used to do it like every couple of days in the summer, once/week in the winter. Now I’m more like 1/week in the summer and believe it’s my winter insulation) but I don’t make a big deal about it, I don’t make a big deal about whether others do or do not and i’m lazier about the armpits than the legs. Also, maybe it’s that I’m older, but, now that I don’t shave all the time, I can go longer between. I also wash my hair every 2 -3 days instead of every day, and after the first two weeks, it’s way better. I gave up deodorant too – well, if it’s HOT, I’ll use some natural stuff, but, I don’t care.
My children are also familiar with menstrual products and female bodily functions. Because, they should be. It’s normal! Also, they don’t normally let me in the bathroom with the door closed, so, if you’re going to be all up in my space, that’s the consequence.
Anywho. I think the world in general is less adamant about the whole thing. And, if she’s not showing any concern (verbal or otherwise) I wouldn’t worry and I don’t think it’s something you should explicitly encourage. But, mentioning it is fine. Just like you might mention that certain religions cover their hair/head – and that’s fine for them and if you want to be religious and do that, yay, but, obviously, we don’t all have to do it just because they do. Or some people don’t wear pants. Or whatever.
Oh, and I also like the rash guard idea – 1, they’re cute 2, they’re excellent sun protection and the long sleeve ones save a fortune in dubious sunscreen 3, they’re fashionable. Bathing suit short bottoms (either board shorts or like boy short normal bottoms) also eliminate the pesky bikini area problem (which I could NEVER keep up with without getting red bumps everywhere, so that’s gone to swim skirts and if you’re looking that close, it’s your problem)
Definitely bring it up. As I remember (as a girl with lots of dark body hair), getting made fun of for hairy pits would have been a humiliation of a very high level. So definitely bring it up.
My oldest daughter got armpit hair at 11 (5th grade)but was too scared to shave, so I did it for her every few weeks until she felt comfortable. Legs was another matter, she didn’t seem to care about shaving her legs until 7th grade, at which point we had a discussion/tutorial. Bikini line shaving came at around age 13, she started doing that when she wanted without a discussion from me.
My 2nd daughter is 11 and not as hairy, no sign of armpit hair yet but I’m keeping an eye out.
I can appreciate not wanting to perpetuate societal rules about women’s appearance HOWEVER, as you said, hairy armpits are so widely shunned I would definitely let your daughter know the likely societal response so she can decide for herself.
My sisters and I were the awkward easily embarrassed type. Even when I wanted to ask for tweezers, razors, etc it was too hard to do. And my parents were the “don’t grow up too fast” type, so I thought they would say no even when they would have said yes. I feel like so many preteen/young teen girls are not rocking a unibrow and crazy wooly legs because they want it.
Since the wait until asked approach did not work for me, I decided to preempt it. My daughter was only 9, but inherited her father’s body hair. We’ve done the whole body talk, and talked about hair removal in different cultures, from removing none at all, to removing everything below the neck.
I talked about how in America, some women choose to go natural and keep their body hair. But most American women shave their legs and armpits. I let her know that I was available if she needed help with anything, and left a Girl Kit under her bathroom sink with deodorant, shaving cream, razors, etc.
(In our house, we’ve had a lot of talks about different cultures and the way things are done in America. My little son really wanted his nails painted, and we let him, but wanted him to know he was outside of American cultural norms. We also read about ancient India, where it was the custom for only men to color their nails red. I sure hope I’m doing a good job…)
Did your 9 year old start shaving? My 9 year old has darker hair than me and IS in a bit of a rush to grow up. She’s been begging to shave her legs, but it seems too young for it. I don’t want her to be self-conscious…but 9 feels so young to me.
I’m not in this situation, but my take is that if a child is begging to do something that doesn’t harm them or other people, preventing them from doing it is kinda mean. Their bodies, their choices.
“I want to help you be comfortable with yourself, whichever way that make take you. It can be tricky to go against the norm, especially when you’re a teenager. I don’t expect you to shave, but our community or your friends may have different expectations, and there’s the possibility of them reacting in a way that could make you uncomfortable or hurt your feelings. Totally unfair, and it shouldn’t be this way, [insert patriarchy rant here], but it could happen. It would be completely understandable and okay if you wanted to avoid this. Some women also like the way their skin feels after shaving, or enjoy the way it looks, which is completely valid as well. If you decide to shave for whatever reason, I will support you in this and help you get everything you need.
Many women, however, do not shave their legs: for convenience, for making a statement against the unfair standards that women are given, for just liking the way it looks. If you decide you do not want to shave, I will also support you in this.
Shaving is a personal choice, and it’s not one you have to make right now, or ever. It is your body, etc etc”
I’m in the minority here, but I would not bring it up and did not bring it up. I know you asked us to save book recommendations, but we used The Care of Keeping of You when I thought my daughter’s period might be coming soon. I feel like the book hits a nice neutral tone and then my daughter discussed the parts that she wanted to. When she did bring up hair removal, I told her flatly that it’s her body and her choice. I choose to shave my pits because I don’t like the prickly feel of hair there. I choose to shave my legs (to the knee) when they are exposed because I grew up with that expectation and can’t seem to shake it. But I don’t shave in the winter and she knows that too.
I started shaving my pits in 5th grade because my mother told me I had to lest other people find me disgusting. I don’t want to do that to my daughter. Ever.
Anyway, she’s 13 and some of her friends shave always, some shave sometimes, some shave never. My daughter is a sometimer and has been for about a year. They all talk about their body hair and compare it, but it seems to be fairly judgement free. These girls, man, they give me such hope.
I was probably more similar to your daughter than not– I wasn’t into reading teen books or magazines or participating in fashion. I mainly just wanted to read books and be left alone. I wouldn’t even make it a “in our culture…” conversation if it’s standard practice where you are. I’d just say, “here’s something you need to start doing, and here’s how.” And then let it ride. If she says she doesn’t want to, then go to “in our culture/up to you” as a response.
Oh, and… please don’t earmark the car for uncomfortable conversations with her! Or at least don’t do it much! My mother did that so consistently that I severely curtailed what little social/extra-curricular life I had because I didn’t want to hear it. I knew what she was doing, and I absolutely hated it.
I would think VERY HARD about whether presenting it as “this is what you need to do” is appropriate. Bodily autonomy is an important thing to teach kids and teenagers, and being told you HAVE to do something to your body because anyone (even your mom) says so, even if it doesn’t harm anyone else, sets a not-so-great precedent. That’s true even if she is a mainstream cis hetero woman; if it turns out she’s not, it may contribute to additional bad feelings.
I strongly agree with you, Sarah. And I think fully understanding and feeling your bodily autonomy is even more important for cisgender heterosexual women, given the inherent power disparity between men and women. A lot of women and girls would be much better off if they knew they could say no and be respected for it. (And to run the other way if they aren’t being respected!)
I’d worry it also sets her up to be one of those girls policing other peoples’ body hair. Lots of little girls are predisposed to enforce rules, so I wouldn’t want to tell her anything is a rule without considering the impact that that rule could have on other people she meets (girls whose parents won’t let them shave their legs, girls who don’t want to shave their legs, girls who forgot to shave their legs, girls whose skin won’t cooperate with them shaving their legs, etc).
Absolutely agree! Maybe instead of the “here’s something you need to be doing…”, it could be more of the “here’s something you might be interested in doing, and if not-that’s fine.'” kind of thing.
Kerry-I think you make a great point about many girls being predisposed to enforce rules. I see it all the time in the classroom, and as we all know, kids can be cruel, sometimes when they don’t mean to be-but thinking they might be “helping” the other child.
For us all the time in the dance studio brought this question up naturally. I think my daughter spent more of her young life with more of her body exposed than is typical. She also spent the last couple of years as one of the younger dancers in her group so it was natural to want to do what the older girls were doing. Underarms were the first and obvious place to start and I think it’s been at least two years that she’s been shaving those. Legs were a little later… her hair is light and my only caution was that once she started doing it, it would likely feel like something she had to keep doing. I wanted her to consider whether she was ready to commit to that!
It sounds like your approach is just right for Elizabeth. I find, in general, that bringing things up in a calm, matter-of-fact way, is a nice way to give a vibe of, “This is open for discussion but no pressure.”
Does Elizabeth have an older (or even similar aged but already shaving) cousin, friend, old babysitter, young cool aunt? Sometimes hearing it from someone other than Mom is helpful. If that person were to suggest it there may be less protest because there isn’t that power struggle. For me, my mom wasn’t ready for me to shave etc. ( grow up) and one of my aunts took it upon herself to gift me with an electric razor, teen magazines, older styled clothing etc. This helped on all fronts, I got what I wanted and my mom didn’t feel like she caved and gave me my way.
Another idea is what if you got Elizabeth a Target gift card and let her go pick out a razor, nice scented shaving cream, and deodorant. In the car on the way there you could say now that it is summer, she may find her friends are shaving and like it or not, that is the expected behavior. In my school, we teach social skills and find using the phrase expected or unexpected behavior (Social Thinking by Michelle Garcia Winner) particularly helpful. Having a gift card and buying it yourself is more fun and gives her more ownership than putting it in the cart and mom paying for it.
She is lucky to have a mom like you!
The basic understanding in my house was that we could start shaving once we started our period. So that’s what happened. I had older sisters who frequently commented on the hairy-ness of my legs so I was very motivated to start. No one showed me how, that I recall. Now, I’m 34 and pretty much only shave my armpits with any regularity. I just don’t care about my legs. Meh. Disclosure, I am blonde so unless you’re really close to me it is hard to tell just how hairy my legs are.
I think as some of the other folks have mentioned that you should probably let her lead the way on when you actually show her. I think in a car on the way to somewhere might be the right time to trot out, the “hey you might have noticed that a lot but not necessarily all of teen and adult women shave their armpits and legs. You do not have to do this, but if you would like to at some point, I would be happy to show you how to do it, and get you a razor.”
For the record, I do shave my pits mostly regularly and my legs less regularly, but I have fine light hair on my legs.
What about something like, hey, Elizabeth, what do you think about leg/armpit shaving?
You could get to know her thoughts on the subject, if she has any, and answer questions that come up either way. You can share your values and perspectives with regard to gendered body hair grooming (like the fashion vs hygiene thing you described, that was an interesting and personal perspective!) And maybe even say what you do, why you do it, when you started, why it mattered to you. But you would worry less about pushing her into adulthood, or a certain kind of adulthood, which from your post it sounds like you don’t want to do too early.
In my favorite YA books the grandma took her granddaughter out for a club sandwich while she had the awkward sex talk so now I always imagine these maternal growing up awkwardversations happening over mall restaurant club sandwiches in the late 70a, ha.
I remember asking my mom if I could start shaving when I was in the 5th grade. Thankfully she said yes and was very casual about the whole thing. She had me start out using an electric razor which was probably a good idea as the chance of me cutting myself was nearly gone. I don’t remember where I would have gotten the idea that I wanted/needed to shave but I had a lot of dark hair on my legs so I remember being self conscious about it for a long time. (although I do remember watching Nair commercials and singing along to the short shorts song when I was little). I was a late bloomer so I didn’t get underarm/bikini hair until I was a bit older and by then knew what I was doing on the shaving front. I do remember being embarrassed or shy about asking my mom about things like this even though she would have been happy to help me. It would have been useful if she had brought up options to me like you’ve suggested without me having to get up the nerve to ask.
I started shaving without any instruction or talk. (I had an older sister, so there were always supplies around.) My mother did notice shortly after and asked if I needed anything or needed any help. But I was also a dancer, so underarms were constantly on display, so peer pressure/example influenced me long before a parent would have.
How about just asking straight out to gauge where she is? i.e. Do you have any interest in shaving? Do any of your friends shave? If she is one (like me) who would rather have gouged my eyes out than ask my mom outright, this opens the door without putting any real pressure on her. (And if she prefers not to, this also opens the conversation and may give clues to her feelings about it — i.e. none of my friends are doing it, that’s weird, I don’t care, etc.)
So. My mother was neither the type to give advice (about ANYTHING – I learnt about periods from school and a leaflet my aunt gave me, I saved up pocket money to buy my first bra (wearing it and washing it in secret), I never really learned how to use make-up (friends at school, I guess, but I still never wear it) and I bought myself some Bic disposable razors and shaved in secret too) nor the type that you (I) could go and “talk” to. Very dysfunctional.
I think you have a great approach with your daughter. I feel like I’m failing both of my girls miserably – one’s 16 and lives with her dad, but we’ve never talked about any of this kind of thing (her dad even took her to her first gynecologist appointment without even consulting me, and she refused to talk about it), the other is 14 and lives with me. And we’ve never talked about this either. However, my younger daughter is very blond (so hair doesn’t show) and so far shows no interest in traditional “beauty” conventions. She does listen to current music (Ariana Grande, Shawn Mendes…), she watches Riverdale via streaming (not available here in France), but she wears huge, shapeless men’s T-shirts, preferably black, grey or khaki (not to hide her “forms”, because even at 14, she doesn’t have any), skinny jeans and sports shoes. I really don’t know how to move forward. My own experience of puberty was so dysfunctional that I haven’t a clue how to proceed – every option just seems horribly, horribly awkward and impossible for me to imagine doing…
I think you’re a fabulous mother and I love all your posts – I get so many ideas and so much advice. Thank you Swistle!
One thing that comforts me tremendously is that a lot of this stuff is getting covered in school health classes. Like, probably not leg-shaving. But a lot of the other stuff, like periods and hygiene and puberty and so forth. My hope is that that will fill in some of the gaps we might miss! I am also relying on the “Putting answer-books on the shelves, all tempting and available” technique.
OWL at the local UU church will cover ALL OF THIS plus everything else important your kid needs! :)
I think your idea sounds like a good one. It leaves her the option but gives her instruction in case she decides to do it, even if it’s some time from now. Kind of like preparing them for periods well before they may actually have a period.
In terms of timing/context, maybe you could broach the subject when you’re at the drugstore or at Target with her and wandering near the shaving supplies. Giving her the opportunity to pick out her own razor and shaving gel or whatever, even if she doesn’t use it right away, might make it more lighthearted and fun since she is reticent about discussing these topics.
I don’t even remember why, but one day in sixth grade I was home alone and I decided to shave my legs. Some girls in my grade had started doing it and I read teen magazines so I just got the idea in my head. I had never discussed it with my mom; I was VERY much a Do Not Talk About Body Things person. So I just went and got a dry disposable razor from my parents’ bathroom and I proceeded to hack the hell out of my legs. My mom saw them later and was like, you should have asked! I would have shown you how! But that was my way of doing things. I don’t have any memory of how pit-shaving started, but it may have been part of that whole scenario.
Love the shout-out to the Epilady. That is amazing that your mom still uses it!
I think your suggested approach sounds PERFECT.
The other day, my daughter (not yet 5) was making some “yuck, yuck, gross” noises because she caught a glimpse of her father’s underarm hair. And I used that as an opportunity to say something like, “It’ not gross, it’s totally normal. Every person grows hair under their arms because we are mammals.” And then she wanted to know why I did not, in fact, have hair in MY underarms, and I told her that some people choose to remove the hair. And her FATHER said, “And you should too when you get old enough.” And *I* took THAT opportunity to get on a little soapbox and talk about how it was totally a PREFERENCE, not a MUST, and it was up to HER, and there is NO REASON for us to remove body hair unless we FEEL LIKE IT because it is PERFECTLY NATURAL. I hope you will trust that I was less all caps-y in my actual speech, while directing a very stern glare at her father. He seemed properly chagrined; I don’t think he thought about what he was saying or why or any of the attendant implications.
Anyway, you didn’t ask about ANY of that, but it so perfectly fit the subject I could not help myself.
I started shaving my legs (I can’t remember about my underarms) when I was in sixth grade, after someone in gym class commented on my leg hair. (I also vividly remember a birthday party in middle school where one of the girls made some hurtful comments about another girl’s pubic hair and so I think I will include a discussion of that area and the “fashions” surrounding it as my daughter gets older. ) My parents were reluctant to allow me to shave my legs, but I was insistent. My mother taught me, at the sink, with a bar of Lever 2000. I think sometime shortly thereafter I convinced her to buy me some shaving cream (although I no longer use it).
Sigh.
I LIKE having shaved legs. It really annoys me that shaving is part of the bigger, much more fraught picture of What A Woman Should Be/Do/Look Like.
I am enjoying this conversation very much, and trying to recall my own experiences back in the early 80s, but drawing a blank. I think I was one of the eager to be a teenager types, and mostly enjoyed the various grooming tasks. I grew up in Oklahoma, so there was undoubtedly strong peer pressure to conform.
I have two boys, ages 6 and 9, and would love to have the male-gender version of this conversation. I am co-parenting with my husband (we are separated) and I’m not sure what (or if) he is thinking about these upcoming conversations.
Thank you, Swistle, for these always-helpful discussions.
The only male related thing I have to add here is a memory of my male cousin, at about age 16, very timidly objecting to his mom and older sister going on and on about how “gross” hairy legs were on women.
Fast forward 15 years and we all just attended his wedding to a gorgeous woman (who he didn’t know at the time) who shaves nothing, not even for her wedding day. If you can raise boys who will speak up about a woman’s body hair being her own to do with what she wants, or who at least won’t join in the policing from others, that would be a very good thing.
I love that your cousin was objecting like that! I am going to see if I can work on my boys about that sort of thing!
Make Rob’s skepticism about “minor” social expectations a force for good = ).
OK I love your cousin!
I honestly hadn’t considered the male perspective on shaving, though now that it’s mentioned I realize that’s one more aspect of the conversations I will likely have with my boys about girls and their mysterious ways. :)
I was actually hinting to Swistle that I would be very interested in her perspective, and the associated group discussion, on talking to boys about stuff like wearing deodorant, body changes, sex, etc. Maybe this has been discussed already and, though I’m an avid reader, I’ve forgotten?
I started shaving my legs when I noticed my friends doing it. I borrowed my mom’s razor and shaving cream and did it the way I had watched her do it. I got a few cuts but I was fine. When my mom noticed, she asked me if I had any questions and bought me my own pack of disposable razors.
I started shaving my armpits as soon as I noticed hair growing there.
As an adult woman, I shave my pits every other day and never shave my legs, even in the summer when it is dress/shorts/bathing suit weather. Not for special events or work or anything. I’m over the idea that it’s a necessary thing to do as a woman. (But I have no ill feelings towards women who do choose
to shave their legs!)
I have a daughter and I don’t know how I’ll approach the topic with her because she’s only 3. If she doesn’t ask me on her own I’ll probably say something like “lots of women choose to shave their legs. I don’t, but I know how so if you want to learn I can teach you. I also shave my armpits because I don’t like the feeling or smell of hair there. It’s up to you what you want to do. You don’t have to decide right now, but let me know if you want to do it so I can get you the right supplies.”
I think that script is great. I think with this sort of thing in general (i.e. things that they don’t HAVE to be doing, per se, but if they are you’d rather they do them safely and knowledgeably), it’s good for them to know that the information is available to them, but not to push that information onto them if they’re not ready. I think your plan sounds like exactly that.
I grew up in an area where it wouldn’t have been any big deal if a woman decided not to shave, but enough women did it that you’d stand out (and perhaps look like you were trying to Make a Commentary on Society) if you didn’t. I had to approach my mom about it, but 1) my mom wasn’t the type to pay attention to what Everyone Else my age was doing, and 2) I was about 13, and if I’d waited until I was a little older she most likely would have brought it up. The conversation went more-or-less like this: “Hey Mom, I think I want to start shaving my legs.” “Okay, here’s where we keep the razors. Do you know how to do it, or would you like me to show you how?” “I think I pretty much know how to do it.” “Okay, be careful.” And then I just…took it from there.
I already knew how to shave because I’d read about it in a book about puberty that my mom had bought me when I was ten or eleven, for “if I wanted to look at it.” (She didn’t push me or make a big deal out of it, which I think was the right call.) I think I looked at the page again for a little refresher right before I shaved for the first time–I remember thinking, “Huh, this is pretty much exactly how the book said it would be, but they didn’t mention how OMG SMOOTH my legs would feel afterwards.” I had definitely noticed that other girls around my age had started shaving, and my cousin who was a grade ahead of me in school had started some time prior. (I considered my cousin to be the absolute epitome of coolness and also a sort of gauge of what was on the horizon for me, puberty-wise.) I think I really NOTICED-noticed, though, at a seventh-grade end-of-the-year party when a bunch of girls in my class were comparing notes about whose parents did and didn’t allow shaving, and it occurred to me that I’d never even ASKED. That sort of planted the seed in my mind, but I must have waited a few more months because I vividly remember the moment I decided, “Okay, that’s it, tonight is the night I ask Mom about it”: I was in eighth-grade music class, I was wearing a skirt, and I realized with horror just how noticeable my leg hair was, and how NONE of the other girls had hairy legs, or if they did they had the decency to wear tights or long pants to cover it up.
Also, though my mom wasn’t the one to approach me about shaving, she DID approach me about bleaching my upper-lip hair when I was maybe fourteen or fifteen. She did it tactfully: “I thought you might want to…err…do something about that, and it’s okay if you don’t, but it’s normal if you do, and anyway here’s where I keep the supplies and here’s how you do it.” Just like with the shaving, we had one short conversation about it and then I took it from there.
Yeah I would completely explain the context to her as you described and give her the option to come to you for safety training. My mum bought me hair removal cream and a “lady shave” electrical trimmer when I was mid teens and they were both like torture devices. It was only when I got to 16 and went away with a friend and she lent me one of her razors tat I discovered the wonder of pain free shaving and haven’t gone back. But I do fairly regularly grow out my body hair and then shave it all off… I go through phases.
I think as long as Elizabeth has the knowledge and the apparatus she can make her own decision!
Also on the info front Hannah Witton’s Doing It book and Girl Up by Laura Bates are great. I would recommend you read them first to check you’re comfortable though!
What if I say to her something like, “So listen: in our culture many women start shaving their underarms and legs once they hit their teen years. You’re a teenager now, so I want to show you how and where the supplies are, in case you want to do that.”
This is exactly what I was thinking, before I got to this part. Personally, when I was in 4th grade I had a friend who was Indian and was Very Concerned about her very dark hair, so she started shaving her legs. I thought it seemed like a good idea, so I did too. However, I had an older sister and we shared a bathroom, so I just went in and used her stuff. Then I went downstairs and proudly showed my parents (who I think were a bit shocked – I was 10 years old after all). I do not at all recall how I started with the underarms, though. I know in college I realized I couldn’t do it everyday, I got too much irritation. But I don’t recall anything else…
Just make sure she knows about the ankle and the achilles tendon and how much that shit bleeds, especially if you are shaving in a hot shower or bath!
I once shaved off a mosquito bite from my ankle. Oh my gosh. So much bleeding.
I’m following this intently. I have a 12 year old daughter and have been struggling with the exact same thing. She is sporty and not interested in nails or hair or teen magazines. She has an older half sister who is VERY into those things, which I kind of like, because it’s like an in-house seminar every other week on the Beauty Industrial Complex options available to teenagers. And as long as the 12 year old doesn’t bite, I feel pretty sure that she’s still doing her own thing.
but about the shaving.
Initially I said to her (without much thought) when I glimpsed faint hairs in her armpits “Oh I can show you how to shave and where the razors are” and then a few hours later I had an actual shot of adrenaline when I realized I had not even left ROOM for the IDEA that she might not want to. So then I fumbled through a poorly thought-out statement about how of course if she did not want to shave, that was totally ok, and some women don’t, and that’s fine and great, and she should do whatEVER she wants to do. She is not a big in-the-moment reactor, and she just looked at me with the face that means “I’m uncomfortable, please stop talking now.” I have brought it up once more since then, with more emphasis on her choices in the matter. Still no action, no further questions from her. It’s all so puzzling.
On a side note (we are not shy at our house so naked strolling from the shower to bedroom is common) last year I noticed that the 15 year old had shaved everything. and I mean everything. I did a literal double-take and said “Did you shave your pubic hair?” and she said “Yeah, I didn’t like it, so I shaved it off.” Being of an age that associates shaved pubic hair with porn actors, I was HORRIFIED but tried to maintain a neutral face and said something like “Oh I never liked shaving that, I get a rash” and walked away. I then quizzed all my friends with teenage children and evidently this is a thing. It’s common. I still don’t know what to think about that.
I went to high school in the early 2000s, and I’m pretty sure every single girl I knew tried that at least once…with very little correlation to how many people, it any, they would be showing it off to.
The easy access to porn on the internet/lack of casual nudity around adult women in my life actually left me very confused about how much hair was normal, which was very stressful for a while.
Ha! I know that “I’m uncomfortable, please stop talking now” face!
I shaved off all my pubic hair when I was teenager. I did it because I thought having hair down there was annoying. I then discovered that area then got very itchy and uncomfortable when the hair start growing back soon after shaving. I never did it again and for me at least, it had nothing to do with sexual stuff.
My sources tell me- though perhaps my sources are biased, I am FULLY willing to concede- that the majority of girls in their late teens/early 20s (maybe only in my area of the country?) shave all their pubic hair off and find leaving it there equivalent to leaving armpit hair. Although I strongly beg to differ, I am also very much not a fan of hair on my body for myriad reasons, so it also doesn’t raise my eyebrows.
You ended up with exactly what I was going to suggest, which is just the statement that it’s common for girls her age to WANT to do this thing, and if she decides she wants to, this is how she’d go about it. And then she can decide for herself what she wants to do. My younger brother commented on my underarm hair when I hit puberty and I was MORTIFIED, so I wrote my mom a letter and asked if she could teach me how to shave it off. I would have preferred if she’d brought it up first (though everything was fine after I gave her the note, the anxiety leading up to that was intense!) ;)
This thread is so interesting! Do you watch Red Table Talks on FB? Jada Pinkett Smith and daughter Willow were discussing armpit hair one day. I think it was the “body talk” episode. I really hope it means that girls are feeling less pressure to shave in general!
I think that would be great. Every so often I get kind of MAD about the whole body-hair issue. I’d love to see girls start shrugging it off.
I know, right? Because we DO shrug it off for boys. And we see their armpit hair (I’m thinking at the pool) without shirts all the time. Blerg.
Of course, it’s easy to be all idealistic on behalf of Elizabeth because I’m not the one who has to cope with the stupid comments people make. Anyway, I was impressed with Willow’s nonchalance on the topic. She has a boho-alternative vibe that I find refreshing.
I have my own baggage about feeling like girls get rushed through childhood, and I have to shave near daily thanks to thick, dark hair so I probably have some baggage there. But, I don’t see why it needs to be an issue if she’s not feeling it. And, I think if you tell her “in our area its normal” you’re going to make it an issue. She has friends. She has eyes. I doubt she doesn’t know this. She just doesn’t consider it relevant to her yet, and I think that’s perfectly fine.
The two actual issues I hear you raising are (1) How do I make sure she feels comfortable getting the information from me when she’s ready? and (2) Is she going to get teased at the pool this summer? For the first, I definitely just asked my mom when I was ready and she didn’t have to open any doors for me. From everything you’ve said, I’d be surprised if your kids didn’t feel like they could ask and I’d probably just let that go. If you do feel like you need to open the door, I’d skip the “its normal” part and just say “Hey, I was shaving today and thought about the fact that I hadn’t shown you where I keep that stuff if you ever want it.” Opens door, but maybe leaves the implied ‘you’re late to this’ out of it? For the second, how about buying her a sun shirt to wear over her bathing suit? Protects her from the sun and her armpits from scrutiny.
““Hey, I was shaving today and thought about the fact that I hadn’t shown you where I keep that stuff if you ever want it.”
“I like this idea, of being As Casual As Possible. Or maybe something like “Hey so I was shaving my armpits this morning and I wanted to ask if you had any thoughts on the subject since we’ve never talked about it.” If she says she’s interested then get her supplies/ask if she wants a lesson. If she says “Uhhh no I’m good” then leave it for now? Not sure if she’s started her period yet/if you’ll had that chat but maybe you can group it together?
I’m listening intently to all this…and my daughter is only 8 months.
Wish I had time to read all the comments right now… will have to come back!
I think your plan is great. I read through fast, so maybe missed it, but I’m thinking you’d want her to start just with armpits for now. I’m assuming she has not reached menarche, and there is zero concern for “bikini line” issues. I know for sure I started shaving armpit hair at least a year before leg hair. Also, very notable, I had an older sister 2.5 years ahead. People’s experiences for themselves and for their daughters likely varied/varies depending on having a older sister (and age gap). I don’t recall getting a lot of instruction on things, but I had witnessed the instruction to my older sister.
Unless she has dark or thick leg hair, I would let that go… man once you start, it’s just never-ending (and comes in darker/thicker even if it is on the light side now).
My two daughters (2.5 year age gap, one is 15, one is 12.5) both have their periods. I recently mentioned to the younger one about maybe shaving her legs soon if she wanted. She informed me that she had already done it a few times. Oh. She has very blonde hair and invisible eyebrows… so I didn’t even notice the absence of leg hair (because the existence of leg hair also isn’t noticeable on her).
Also – my older daughter only shaves her legs in the summer (maybe a couple times during fall/winter), and even then quite infrequently. Her hair is still fairly light/thin. She complains that her skin is itchy for days after shaving; and she complains about how darn long it takes to shave – so she avoids it. I’ve educated her on proper moisturizing and using sudsy/foamy substance to shave; and have also explained that once you get over the hump of irritation (by shaving regularly) you’ll have less irritation and it won’t take so long. BUT her response is: I”M A MAMMAL! I’M SUPPOSED TO HAVE HAIR! Very true, very true.
I just don’t want her to be embarrassed by a friend’s comment or similar…
Yes, you’re right: I’m just thinking underarms for now. Her leg hair is light and still fits her Child Mode and doesn’t stand out. But I have Anxiety Eyebrows about the underarms.
I agree with your approach.
My daughter is 12 and she started wearing deodorant a couple of years ago when she realized her armpits were stinky. When she asked when she could start getting rid of her leg/underarm hair, I told her something like, “Whenever you want to; it’s your hair. You can certainly leave it and let it grow in as it’s totally a personal choice, but most women living when and where we do get rid of it. If you decide to let your body hair grow, I’m fine with that, but be aware that you’ll have to accept the fact that eventually someone is going to comment on it.”
She asked for a couple of disposable razors for her armpits, and she asked for an epilator for her legs this past Christmas and I got them when she asked for them and she uses both.
I felt a lot of pity for a friend of my daughter’s whose mom wouldn’t let her shave her armpits or legs because she thought she was too young, even though she was clearly growing noticeable hair in both places.
And I should add that she’d asked to do it – I didn’t pity her because she was hairy, but because she wanted to shave off her noticeable hair and was denied permission. I myself didn’t shave my legs for years and only started when I got seriously into the gym and started to teach and having smooth legs went with the culture and the image I then wanted to project.
SO my daughter is 11 and SUPER hairy. I had been pondering how to approach this also – decided to do it on a private car ride with her – I started to say something, then i noticed – all her hair was gone! She had just started shaving – I don’t know if she remembers seeing me do it, or her friends told her or if she googled it, but she did a great job – I did offer some tips and told her to come to me if she ever needed anything. I did buy a new razor for her, as she had been sneaking mine.
I think your plan to talk with your daughter is a great idea. I know for me it would have helped if I’d had a talk about shaving and we’ll, all female teenage-related situations. I was easily embarrassed and shy as a kid and couldn’t work up the nerve to ask my mother about shaving. So one day (after perceiving that other kids were staring at my hairy 13 year old legs) I started shaving. I just used my moms shaver and tried out a small area. So yes, it would have helped tremendously if someone had discussed shaving with me.
You have lots of good comments that I agree with. This is very good mental practice for when my girl gets older. I think I will take the approach of letting her know her options and then firmly letting her make her own choices. I am a huge believer in body autonomy and not doing things with one’s body because society says it is “expected.” I feel like that could be a slippery slope. That being said, I wear makeup daily and shave. That’s what makes me comfortable. Here’s to ladies doing what they want, when they want to do it!
I started shaving in 6th grade, with my friend Amy when we spent a week together with her family. Legs and pits, left tons of hair in the bathtub. Her mom noticed THAT and talked with us about it all, including the need to clean the tub afterwards.
A good book that covers some of the awkwardness of the whole thing is “The Pistachio Prescription” by Paula Danziger.
On the embroidered pants problem, has she thought of embroidering them herself? Relatively easy, inexpensive, and fun craft.
I am 42 years old and STILL get nervous when I tweeze my eyebrows, thanks to that book, hahaha.
This is so excellent that she are planning for how to teach her!
I was about 7th grade when I started shaving my legs and between 8th and 9th when I started shaving under my arms. I wish I had started shaving under my arms sooner because I did get made fun of my mom wasn’t interested and it had been made very clear to me that I had to have permission to shave (my neighbor friend who was my same age had shaved without asking her mom and she got in big trouble and it was made clear that we do not shave without permission).
I shave my legs every few months now and I haven’t shaved under my arms since Christmas and weirdly I feel less sweaty and less stinky. I am very fair and only hairy on my head where I am supposed to be so no one notices or cares about my legs or underarms. I had a massage recently and she didn’t care about my unshaven underarms and legs.
My daughter is early elementary school, she clearly states that she’s a girl and will grow up to be a mom and we have already talked about a lot of puberty issues: some women shave their legs and/or under their arms and that she can when she wants but she doesn’t have to. It’s her body and her choice.
She has finished swimming lessons and is soon joining the swim team, where most of the kids are older and bigger so this topic may come up soon. I would rather she not shave yet because she’s freaks out about blood and she’s not exactly coordinated enough to shave safely.
I think there are so many choices now about how people use their bodies and express themselves that I really hope shaving or not shaving will be less of An Issue for future generations.
I know we are saving the book recommendations but the American Girls doll company has some excellent books about puberty, about hygiene, about middle school, about friends and relationships. They’re available on Amazon and at American Girls doll stores and at Target and even in those Scholastic book orders.)
I have such a distinct memory of being 12 and at Outdoor School and sitting in a group and noticing I had hairy legs and no one else did. I came home at the end of the week and asked my mom about it and she told me how to shave. She was a very open sort so it felt comfortable to ask. She told me not to shave my arms and of course I did once. And then never again, haha.
I was a teenager who was not proactively interested in my development and who received absolutely no direction (beyond one short book devoted exclusively to the menstrual cycle) about anything related to growing up/hygiene/societal expectations/make-up etc. I was a late bloomer in every way and figuring all of this out by myself well into high school was definitely embarrassing and unpleasant. I know a couple people recommended waiting for her initiate the conversation, but I know I would have NEVER done that. Granted, I gather that you are a great mom and very available to your kids for these talks in a way my parents were not, but still. I was mortified by EVERYTHING and just wouldn’t have done so. I think the casual, low-key introduction you describe, in connection with a reference book (I would have killed for a way to just look things up myself) sounds ideal.
I am enjoying this topic so much even though my kids are adults now. I am heartened by all the comments regarding today’s kids/teens being more accepting of personal choice. This was definitely NOT my experience growing up.
I am somewhat of a swarthy type and remember finally working up the courage to ask my mom when I was 12 or 13 if I could shave my legs. She absolutely forbade it, along with no makeup whatsoever until I was 16, which I already knew. *sigh* (I vividly remember her saying in a Voice of Doom “Besides, once you shave, you will have to shave for the rest of your life!!!” as if this was the end of the world.)
Being a non-conformist in training, I borrowed her single-blade razor after school the next day before she got home & DRY-SHAVED my legs. It’s a wonder I didn’t bleed to death. I didn’t figure out that using soap or cream rinse would solve this problem. Even when I finally did, I dry-shaved for at least 2 years until I got enough babysitting money to get shaving cream. Thankfully I figured out that shaving in a downwards direction helped lessen the damage.
As an adult, I used to shave every day or every other at the least, but have always had a problem with razor burn (even with product), so as soon as the technology became available, I had my legs lasered within an inch of their lives. Game changer! I think I now have a grand total of 6 hairs on both legs combined now. Not enough to hassle with another session of hair removal, so I just yank those babies out when they show up.
Needless to say, I made a conscious effort to do just the opposite with my daughter. When she was 12 or so I casually mentioned where I kept the shaving supplies and said that if she had any questions or wanted some help learning how, I would help her. She gave me a small sheepish smile and said she’d been shaving for at least a year already. Lol!
I know this isn’t necessarily on topic, but I did the same with regards to makeup. I am not makeup savvy and never really had an interest in experimenting with it. I definitely didn’t feel qualified to teach someone how to apply it! So I made an appointment with a Pink Car rep ;) during the summer before my daughter started 8th grade & we turned it into a girls’ day. It was a blast! It was very fun and helpful, and we both learned a lot about makeup, with the added bonus that she had a knowledge base from which to experiment from vs just applying it like pancake makeup as I did on my 16th birthday. *eyeroll*
Thank you, Swistle, for topics like these. You are such a thoughtful person/parent and I learn so much from you and everyone here in the comments!
I was coming here to talk about laser hair removal. Not for Elizabeth, of course, but if someone has an older daughter with darker hair who is really bothered by it and knows for sure they want it (mostly) gone, laser is at least worth considering. It is a bit pricey, a bit uncomfortable, and requires several sessions but it makes some sense to do it sooner rather than and let a girl forgo the hassle and expense of years of regular shaving.
My mom had me watch her shave once (wearing shorts and tank top) while giving a little talk about how I should know how to do it, especially at the beginning of summer. No follow up from her at all. Not sure if that was the best way to learn or not, but I think I would have been too embarrassed to ask for any advice whatsoever, and it worked while feeling low pressure.
My experience:
Desperately wanted to shave around the age of 13. Grandma has almost no body hair and did not have to shave her legs, my mom only needs to shave occasionally, and I got my dad’s level of body hair, which is to say, quite a lot.
I had to plead, and then I got the equipment. I wish my mom had just accepted my choice to shave. Your idea of presenting this as something some women do and many in our region do is perfect.
Flash forward to high school, and I only intermittently shaved my legs even while running track and wearing shorts. My body, my choice!
As for bikini line, with my dark hair and sensitive skin, getting a close shave is very, very hard. Even now if I don’t plan ahead with waxing, I feel more comfortable in cute but covered options, like swim shorts and a tankini or rash guard. I definitely suggest having lots of different swimming options for Elizabeth. There’s so many more cute “sun safe” (body hair safe, ha) options out there than when I was younger!!
I love my hairy legs, but I don’t feel comfortable being hairy and proud with underarms or bikini line. Sigh.
Not sure how old I was when I started to shave but I do remember I used my mothers Flicker razor. Does anyone else remember them? I think you’re approach sounds sensible, cannot wait to hear the outcome!
Were those the round ones that you twisted to get to the next blade? And they had a thin wire over the blade so you couldn’t cut yourself unless you were really, really inept? ::raises hand::
My first removal of leg hair was with Nair that I bought with my allowance and hid in my closet, but Nair + armpits = rash, so I used a razor for both arms and legs for years. Now I use wax strips on my legs, razor on my pits.
A male friend who shaved for some sport said he liked the way it felt and would do it all the time if he weren’t concerned about cutting himself to ribbons.
I don’t think I ever talked to my mom about shaving, I have a sister who is 16 months older than I am, and I just kind of followed her lead. I probably asked her about it, and she helped me out. I developed really early for the time I grew up – the 60’s-I was the first one I knew to get my period, and I had my bra snapped every single recess of 6th grade, with the boys saying I stuffed my bra. I’m so happy times have changed. Anyway, where I grew up in the Midwest, and we shaved our underarms and below the knee. No one I knew shaved above their knees, and to this day, I’ve never done that. I was very dark haired when I was younger (silver now) but my leg hair was always pretty sparse.
With my own daughter, she was also an early developer. I brought up the subject saying if she was interested in shaving, I could show her how. I wanted to make sure she knew about it-and as others have commented, didn’t want her hacking herself up with the Daisy razor I keep in the shower. So she did shave for a while and then completely stopped when she went to college. I think it was a kind of rebelling against the cultural norm of beauty kind of thing. At that time, I realized how conditioned I was to a certain idea of what was acceptable, because I remember a “oh, please shave your underarms” thought when I saw that. It was a big wake up call to me.
I can’t remember the commenter who said this (sorry!) but I love the daughter who said “I’m a mammal, I’m supposed to have hair there!”. Such a scientific observation, awesome!
When I was 10, I opened a bathroom cupboard to find a package of pads. I knew my mother used tampons, so I promptly marched out and demanded to know what on earth these pads were for. (I already knew the facts of life.) She calmly said something like, “well, you’re getting older and I figure you will need something like this at some point so I picked these up. They are for you, if you want to use them.” I was outraged because, you know, gross and ew and what not. But boy, was I happy to know those were there a year later when I started my period on an afternoon when I was home alone with my dad. I wonder if you could do something similar: buy a razor and shaving cream or whatnot (maybe in a brand she knows you don’t use) and leave it where she keeps her things. Then let her know casually that this stuff is for her, should she wish to use it, now or in the future. It doesn’t solve the teaching issue, but it might be a conversation starter if she’s interested, and presents no pressure if she’s not.
Oh man, if we are telling period stories, I started mine when I was on a business trip with my dad (he used to take me along a lot). I was at the hotel alone waiting for him to get finished with his meetings.
He was a great dad and had been doing the grocery/household shopping for many years and (presumably) buying products for my mom and sister, so he went right out and got some pads and brought them back. The worst part was actually that on this particular trip, we were with his business partner and his older teenage son. We went to dinner later. THE HORROR.
I started mine while on a family vacation to Italy. The weirdest thing was that my mom knew she wasn’t going to get her period during the trip, so knew she wouldn’t need any Supplies. But according to her, she had this weird premonition that I might get my first period on the trip and decided to pack some anyway. AND THEN I DID. My mom has period ESP.
AAAAAA this makes me love your mom
I haven’t read all the other comments but I just wanted to note that I think you are right about how to bring it up. Keep it matter of fact, almost like you are bored and uninterested and avoid asking questions like “do you want me to show you…?” I always hated how giddy my mom seemed to be when trying to talk about puberty related things and if she ever asked me “do you want me to tell you about ….” I always said NO! Because she made it so embarrassing.
Ok, I’ll tell you. For me, it was 6th grade. (I grew up in the O.C. So I think we were a little quick to be “grown up”). And I asked my mom to show me how to shave bc my best friend at the time started shaving. She said she thought I was too young, but showed me anyway.
For my daughter, who is 13 now and going into 8th grade, it was LAST summer when I simply said, “I think it’s time to start shaving your legs.” And I showed her how and it was fine. I mean, the first time I did it for her and talked through it. The 2nd time, I watched her do it, per her request. The 3rd time and ever since, she’s done it on her own. She likes picking out her own shaving cream; she likes the pretty pink, purple or blue bottles they come in.
Her armpits? Well we had started those a while back. Out of what I thought was necessity.
So I guess if you are looking for advice, it would be to state the need very matter of factly. And teach her the same way. I have a feeling if you approach it as if you were teaching your Grandma to use the computer, that might make it, for both of you, simply “something that needs to be done” instead of “ackward situation”
Oh this is a good topic and a sad sucky one, sigh.
I think your approach with her is great, and is one I’ll probably have to follow with my 13 y.o. before long. In the last couple years she’s finally become interested enough in hygiene to be good about doing her hair and having a shower and using deodorant etc. without me nagging her. She does dance, which I love for her general happiness and confidence/strength re her body. But I don’t like it for the emphasis on the body, for adolescents in particular. But on the third hand there are people at her dance studio who are her size or a bit larger, and that includes teachers. So while most of them are super skinny dancers, there are quite a few who are not overweight but definitely not super skinny, like her. (She’s mildly autistic, so I’m extra paranoid about her socially, and ftr I’m overweight and am not judging people who are super skinny or who are overweight.)
That’s my long-ass way of saying I understand the whole problem of “I want you to do what’s best for you and makes you happy, but if you need to do what society says is Correct because you don’t want to deal with being teased, then I understand that too”.
I shave my armpits a couple times a week, and only very rarely shave my legs. But I’m overweight, and over 40, and freckly, and usually wear pants or longish skirts in public. I don’t bother shaving if it’s a weekend and I want to wear shorts when I take the kids to the park, though. But I guess it’s “easier” that I’m out of the traditionally attractive demographic and am not trying to be traditionally attractive. Something that worried me a hell of a lot more in my teens and 20s, before I gave up!!
(Please note I’m not saying that someone over 40, with freckles, who’s overweight, cannot be attractive! I just mean it’s easier in a way for me to not conform, than it was when I was thinner and younger.)
To ramble a little more, I find shaving my legs to be a pain and not necessary. I like the feel of perfectly shaved legs, but my stubble grows fast and it never lasts long.
I like the feeling of shaved armpits and feel as though it’s better for me sweat-wise.
I wish that it wasn’t a society thing to make women do things like this. I wish we all got to choose based on our personal comfort. I support everyone doing what’s right for them. I guess I do get a little worried when I see someone who’s perfectly primped and manicured. Like how much of it for them is worry about other people’s opinions, and how much of it is their own personal choice, because it genuinely makes them happy? But I’ll never know the answer to that, and I guess that’s the point, that I need to shut the hell up even inside my head and not judge!!
I went through the same thing recently with my daughter who is almost 15 and showed no interest in shaving… and is also hispanic, with very obvious body hair.
What I did with her, and what seemed to work, was make it obvious that I shaved/waxed/epilated and casually mentioned why (“I think I’m gonna wax my eyebrows tonight to define the arches a bit more”), and eyed her for any indications of interest. None.
Then, when she went to her senior school (she boards in the UK), I noticed that the school shop was selling cheap, plastic razors. I casually asked if she wanted me to grab some for her or not, and she said sure. I know she tried them at least once because she complained about the quality, but the nicer razor I bought her has been untouched. Shrug.
That was kind of a long pointless story, because what I’m going to say next is – I really think it depends on the child. My daughter has always been really comfortable being different. In elementary school, she would only wear boys clothes, despite an infuriating amount of teasing from her classmates. She also came out as gay at the beginning of this year and is open about it with everyone. I know that she knows some women shave and some don’t, and I trust her to weigh peer pressure against doing what she wants and being comfortable with that decision. If she had been a lot more stressed about fitting in, I think I would have been more proactive about teaching her about shaving, because I feel like being a teenager is hard enough without having to make some sort of stand, you know?
I didn’t think about it much until I was 12, and then a friend I was at the pool with made some comment–not mean, but a bit pointed–about my leg hair (blond, but abundant). After that I was self-conscious and I probably mentioned something about it to my mom, and for my 13th birthday I got a women’s electric shaver. No instruction or commentary. I kind of hated it but used it. Eventually I discovered the disposable razors in the shower method which was better in my opinion.
I was determined that my daughter wouldn’t be the recipient of snide comments, at least for this reason, so I introduced the idea of shaving the summer before 6th grade. Like your daughter, she was still very much a kid and nowhere near getting to that point on her own. I didn’t demo, but talked her through it when she was in the shower. I also told her about other options. However, she really only shaved a few times (she’s 16 now) before she decided it was stupid and stopped, so maybe my experience with her isn’t very helpful here. (I’d be interested in that other discussion sometime, about choosing to have body hair!)
Anyway, I think that your ideas for having this conversation with Elizabeth–no pressure, but giving her the option, and discussing your own experience–are spot on, and just what I wish I’d had or done. You have great parenting instincts, just go with them!
Your suggested method seems like a good one to me (as someone who was once a teen girl myself but who does not have children so can’t speak from that angle).
I remember that when I was 12, I was living with my dad at the time (parents were long divorced) and he wouldn’t allow me to shave yet. So the first time I did was when I spent the night at my same-age cousin’s house, and SHE showed me how. Dad wasn’t thrilled, but he no longer forbade it. Apparently he hadn’t wanted me to start shaving because he was of the impression that once you start, you can never stop, which certainly isn’t true — I never shave in the winter months!
Hello Swistle, just commenting to say that one of the things I really really love about your blog is the fact that almost always your comment section is guaranteed to be just as interesting or entertaining as the original post. What a joy!
I like your plan. Make the supplies available and be available to help. My friends all seemed to start around age 11 and my mom wasn’t ok with me shaving yet. About a year later, I overheard some girls talking about it, I think they were being purposefully loud so I would hear, something like “I wonder why people don’t shave their legs? It’s just gross”. So then I started shaving my legs with my dad’s razor secretly. Lol. Except not so secretly because the razor dulled fast and he started to notice when shaving his face. He told my mom his razor was dulling fast, that’s when she figured it out and said fine, and took me to get my own stuff. (My mom never shaved her underarms or legs).
Hmm. I see comments are split between “she knows, leave her alone” and “bring it up before someone else does”. So much depends upon her personality. Is she still in childhood mode and clueless about how she may be judged on her appearance, or is she aware and just strong and secure enough not to care?
My mother sent me to the first day of grade 9 with unshaven legs and armpits. I had no idea, having being homeschooled, that every girl my age shaved. It was not a pleasant way to find out – I already stuck out for many reasons and this was one more thing that made me odd. I feel it was unkind to let me go unprepared…. But then she never told me about periods either, or bought me pads. I was on my own figuring those things out, so my preference is to err on the side of information and instruction.
As a side note, my daughter in gr 5 tells me her best friend WAXES her armpits. At 10 years old!
My 13-year-old daughter is exactly the same. Not girly at all and not interested in traditional girly things, so I didn’t know how to bring this up.
About a year ago I bought an electric razor, because that is how I started, and I noticed she was getting pretty hairy. But I just put it away in a closet and then mentioned in a private moment that I had such a thing in the house, and if she ever wanted to try it, we could talk it over together.
She was actually terrified of the electric but about six months later, came to me to ask what I thought about shaving her legs. It took another few months for her to ask for a razor, and then I think a month after that until she was ready to try. The whole time I kept it very low key and emphasized that she didn’t have to do anything she didn’t want to, but if she was worried about it or wanted to change I would be there for her.
She did eventually start shaving her legs but had no interest in her pits, despite being an avid swimmer. So my attitude was the same – I let her know she never had to do anything she didn’t want to, but I was available if she had any questions. So far she remains hairy there, but she recently moved up to a more advanced swim class with some older teenaged girls, and the other day she asked me what I thought about pit shaving, so looks like she is getting used to the idea.
So I think your planned approach is perfect – let her know you have stuff available if she wants, but there’s no pressure – she doesn’t have to do anything she doesn’t want to. It’s enough to give her the idea, to think it over, and then come to you if she is ever ready for it. Let her move on her own schedule and really mean it when you tell her she doesn’t ever have to do anything she doesn’t want to.
I want to know what to do about brows. My 10 yr old is developing a serious unibrow. I don’t treat mine all that special anymore, but I don’t want her to get teased either!
I already commented, but I wanted to add one more thing: if you decide to go the “buy her an assortment of shaving supplies and let her decide if she wants to use them” route, I’d suggest spending the extra money on a sharp, good-quality razor. (Like, the kind with blades that you can replace when they get dull.) They’re good for people who are just learning how to shave, because they don’t cut or burn as easily.
I don’t have time to read all the wonderful comments, so this may be a repeat idea- Swistle, would you be willing to not shave your armpits this summer as an experiment? If it’s rare in your area (as it is mine) you could show her it’s normal and no big deal. There are a few good pics of Julia Roberts with obvious pit hair too. I don’t remember when is started shaving, but I’m very pale with lots of dark hair. I took a break from shaving for one year during college and I enjoyed it. I got a few shocked looks from some relatives, but nothing major. I was a Women’s Studies major, so it was not abnormal in my crowd. I’m tempted to do hairy pits this summer too so my boys can see it as normal. Thanks for making me think!
Abbbbbbsolutely not! But I can see how it would be a fun thing for other people to try!
I thought about doing this! But, then I was like, “nah.” Because given the free choice between shaved/not shaved (with no gender issues implied either way) I would still choose to shave my armpits because I like the feeling/lack of smell/etc. BUT! I wanted my girls to see it was a choice. So, I’m trying to convince my husband to shave his armpits. He’s off for the summer and rarely shirtless, so I might be able to get this to work :)
Certainly shaving is a fashion choice, but there is also a level of skill required/training needed. Did you or Paul teach Rob and William how to tie a tie? I think striking the same/similar tone makes sense.
“Some people wear ties daily; some people oft for this fashion choice every so often; some people adamantly refuse to wear/tie a tie ever for various reasons. I’m happy to buy you a tie when you think you need/want one. Regardless, I’m going to show you how to tie a tie because this is an ADULT skill to have in your toolbox.”
Sidebar- I am a heterosexual girl and I can tie a tie. I have never worn a tie.
I was thinking along similar lines – do your older boys shave (or have they been shown how)?
I wonder whether it might work to offer to show Elizabeth and Edward how to shave ‘in case they want to later’. Paul or Robert could show Edward and you could show Elizabeth.
I think introducing the topic as if by chance might reduce some embarrassment – maybe asking her to pick up some shaving soap/cream/gel for you (or for Paul) from the shops and, when she gives it to you, saying something like ‘Thanks. By the way, I realised we haven’t shown you how to shave if you decide you want to…’
Or perhaps you could take her to get her nails painting somewhere that also offers waxing, and you could casually mention that you prefer shaving (if you have a funny or embarrassing story about DIY waxing, for instance, you could say something like ‘if you decide to wax, we should definitely get a professional to teach us first!’)
I don’t have kids, and I come from a non-shaving family (though one of my brothers has been clean-shaven for a few years, since his mid-20s, and I occasionally shave my legs and/or armpits). But I think this sort of casual talk, dressed up as knowledge you might want in the future, would have best suited me as a shy kid.
This topic is fascinating and I enjoy everyone’s perspectives so much! Growing up, my best friends both had older sisters and they were a great source of information about all this stuff, along with teen magazines and books. I remember getting teased by one of my friends for not shaving for an event when we were 12 or so (this would have been in the early 80s). I think I wore knee socks with sandals, and it was deemed that I was too old for that look (probably a fair assessment). My mom was super against me doing anything related to makeup or shaving for quite a while. She got so sick of me asking when I could wear/do x, y, z that she made a list with approved timing and posted it on the fridge. For example – I was not allowed to pierce my ears until the summer before 8th grade. I don’t remember shaving being on the list but I know she was against it. I think I finally just did it without asking or telling her when I was around 12 or 13, and she either didn’t notice or decided not to say anything. So I had lots of influences from older girls and I saw shaving, makeup and even getting my period as a rite of passage that I aspired to.
I have not read all the comments but wanted to chime in with my own experience with a daughter who just turned 14. I was wondering the same thing as you – didn’t want to push it, also didn’t want her to be made fun of. In the end, sometime in 7th grade, she shaved her legs during a sleepover with a friend who had been shaving for a long time (this same friend was wearing make-up at age 7, cue my huge eye roll). It was no big deal for her, or me, I guess, although when I found out I made sure to show her all the danger points where I myself have stripped long pieces of skin off my legs (shin, ankles) and cautioned her on knees, tendons on the backs of knees. One day a few months later when she was bored she also completely shaved her arms! I was horrified, though it grew back so I guess it’s all good.
I had zero interest in shaving as a kid (still don’t but do intermittently bc I wear skirts to work.). My mom bought me a epilady as a 12th birthday gift. I was horrified, embarrassed and disappointed to get something I didn’t want. She was angry I wasn’t greatful, completely bewildered that I didn’t want it and wouldn’t let me return the hated gift. I still have horrible memories of this event.
I remember this issue well.
It was the summer between 5th and 6th or 6th and 7th grade for me. I was visiting my aunt’s family for a few weeks and she is the one that brought it up. I was wearing shorts and was growing a considerable amount of hair on my legs (I’m Indian and we are HAIRY). She commented on it and asked why I don’t shave my legs. The details are blurry from here, but I remember by aunt calling my mom and getting permission to help me get started on it.
They started me off on some nair hair removal cream. There are no razors involved. That might be a good place to start her off? See how she handles that and then graduate to razors.
One thing I will say is, I remember feeling super embarrassed and ashamed when my aunt brought it up. I felt gross and like I should hide my legs for the rest of the time I was there. I was also kind of a sensitive pre-teen/teenager. I like your approach of just presenting the facts and I would definitely present both sides: “Most women around here shave their armpits, but it is up to you whether you want to or not. Keep in mind, you may get comments if you don’t, but you shouldn’t let what other people think sway your opinion.”
I think it’s also a good idea to stress the importance of how NATURAL body hair is and it’s nothing to be ashamed of. If she does choose to keep everything shaven, she should know that if she misses a spot or doesn’t have time to do it one day, it’s not the end of the world. I think this is super important because i have a cousin (~16 yo) who will freak out if she ever notices a missed spot. It always made me sad that she felt that pressure as such a young girl.
Curious, how did you/will you handle the shaving issue with the boys? Did you delegate that task to Paul and leave it up to him to handle it as he saw fit? Was there a similar plan of attack about bringing up shaving? I completely understand that it’s unfortunately a more sensitive topics for girls, but I’m wondering if you could draw from how you dealt with it with her brothers?
Yeah, it didn’t seem to be a big deal: boys seem to think of shaving as a manly thing to do OR not do, so it wasn’t sensitive. I can’t even remember how it happened, whether they asked me or asked Paul or whether Paul brought it up or what.
I just thought of something else to add. Keep in mind that this next comment is likely just coming from my own baggage over all of this and I may be projecting a little, so you certainly don’t have to read too much into it.
To this day (I’m 25 now), I struggle with wanting to keep body hair groomed to the way I like it/want it vs how my SO likes it. I’m specifically referring to my bikini area (I know Elisabeth is likely not there yet), but it comes up with my arm hair (which I generally do not remove), too. Maybe there was no way to avoid this struggle, but I just wish someone had stressed to me that I DID in fact have a choice whether I removed my body hair or not and that I should feel absolutely ZERO guilt for whatever choice I made. Societal or relationship expectations be damned. A SO’s preference should not have the power to make you feel guilty about your body hair. And it’s not even that my SO is cruel/abusive about it, he just mentions it sometimes that he would like if I shaved more. I wish I didn’t feel like i had to defend or justify my choices to not shave sometimes.
Again, I know Elisabeth is not there yet, but I think the way you present this issue to her now could very well impact what she feels she needs to do in the future as far as grooming is considered.
It reminds of a Rupi Kaur poem I read that stayed with me:
the next time he points out
the hair on your legs is growing back
remind that boy
your body is not his home
he is a guest
warn him to never
out-step his welcome
again
(sorry for digging the hole deeper than it probably needed to be dug).
I like that poem, and I feel VERY STRONGLY when I hear about men having Opinions about women’s body hair, so this is a good reminder to be sure to include a little section on that when I talk to Elizabeth (AND TO HER BROTHERS).
My husband, ONE TIME, decided to make a comment on some body hair. I offered to wax his B@LLS. Has not been mentioned since.
Back when shaving the bikini line started to give way to the popularity of full waxes of nether regions, a male friend opined that he preferred all hair down there removed. When I asked him incredulously if that preference didn’t seem a little pedophilic to him, he was horrified. I’m not sure I changed his preference (it never came up again – we were just friends), but I sure made him think twice about it.
This. A million times this.
I always always always think about this. Like, why is this a trend?? Making women look like pre-adolescents? Why would men even WANT that??
FWIW, I got to the age of around 21 and came to the realization that I knew next to nothing about hair, makeup, clothes etc. and I was so frustrated by it. Who knows why I didn’t ask my mom about it more?? I think I also spent a couple months of periods trying to get by with just panty liners during middle school too, obviously I was super clueless. So I guess I’m just saying it’s probably not safe to assume she’ll ask. And you know…keep checking in. Some of us need more direction than others. ;)
I desperately wanted to shave in 6th grade but was too shy/embarrassed to ask my mom. I lied and told friends at school that my mom wouldn’t let me shave. Finally, I got the courage to ask in 8th grade and my mom said: “she was waiting for me to ask for years”. All this to say, I think being proactive about it is a good idea. I can’t believe I was so self-conscious for 2 years but too nervous to ask my very lovely mother!
She was much better on the bra front and got me a bra for Easter when I was in 5th grade. I ignored it until 7th grade when I realized every else was wearing a bra. It was great that I had the proper supplies, but had no pressure from my mom to use it AND then when I was ready, I didn’t have to ask!
My daughter is 13 (and hairy) and I casually asked her if she wanted shaving supplies and she said, horrified, that her friends told her shaving HURTS. Like, the stubble afterwards is HARD and PAINFUL. I mean, I know kids shouldn’t get sex information from their uninformed peers but it never occurred to me that I’d have to be first with shaving information.
I let her feel the stubble on my legs. “That’s it,” I said, “it’s kind of a hassle and it’s totally your choice but I promise it doesn’t hurt.”
About five months later (non-coincidentally at the beginning of swimming season) she asked if I could pick her up some shaving supplies. She did NOT want to be shown how. :)
I grew up in the ’90s / Noughties, and my mother never brought up the issue of shaving, as far as I remember. I don’t think she shaved herself, or not very often. But neither would she have bared the skin in question very often. It took me a lonnng time to figure out what was deemed “mandatory” in terms of hair removal, and how to go about achieving that (well, “a long time”… I NEVER really got the hang of the bikini line). Unfortunately, I also wasn’t the kind of brave girl who really didn’t care what others thought, so I remember a lot of shame and anxiety about my underarm and leg hair – even though I identified as a feminist from the age of about 14 and DID recognise, intellectually, that it was ridiculous to impose hair removal on women.
Fast forward, and I’m a queer woman who’s hairy as bedamned most of the time (with a partner, female, who is similarly hairy, and we are both v happy with this situation). I do still shave when I’m going to be baring my legs/underarms – not so much for swimming, but for wearing summery dresses to fancy events, that kind of thing. It’s a hard one to get rid of, the old irrational shame. I shave so rarely that I still tend to rip my ankles to shreds. And I resent the time tax and annoyance of it, every time.
I’m SO glad I had a mother who didn’t present shaving as compulsory, and who didn’t contribute to the societal pressure to do it. BUT… for the wimpier-than-I-like-to-admit teenage girl that I was, it would have been great if she’d taken an approach like the one you’re suggesting. With some FULL-ON screw-the-patriarchy ranting in there, but also with the option of a few demo lessons if I were that way inclined.
(I’m also going to leave this article here as it made me roar laughing a few years ago and might be a good one to use to spark discussion with Elizabeth when she’s a bit older again: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/02/ladies-why-you-should-stop-shaving)
My daughter turns 13 tomorrow! She ended up wanting to shave about a year ago. I remember buying her an electric razor, but she said it never really worked well. So she’s since graduated to using a disposable razor. I did buy her shaving foam to start with and then talked about how to shave in the shower with soap or bodywash, so it’s easier. I think I might have even shown her how I shave my legs.
I think she started noticing that other girls were shaving, when she would have gym and they all had to change and it was obvious that no-one was hairy.
I do like the approach of mentioning it and talking about the options, in case she wants to. I was just worried my daughter would try it on her own and then hurt herself. So I think it’s important to talk about safe ways to shave, if you have your own razor out and about.
My daughter is also not super girly or teenagery – she won’t paint her nails or do make up or talk about boys she likes – famous or otherwise. Probably shaving her legs and underarms is the only girly teenage type thing that she does.
This is probably very late – but it’s something I have a couple thoughts on and I’ve been looking for an excuse to actually comment here forever!
My mom introduced shaving to me around summer prom time (if there isn’t prom time soon, maybe a party?), and presented it as an option that some people take to be a tiny bit more fashionable, like makeup. Not necessary, though some people use it every day, and it would make me look a bit more “like all the other girls there”. I think this was a decent way to do it. It wasn’t too awkward, since it came from discussions about what I’d be wearing for prom and about makeup, and it linked to the whole fashion-hygiene thing. It introduced the idea and made me consider when other people were doing it. I still didn’t do it though because who needs to conform. NOT ME.
(And, if she does get teased for it, teach her how to deal with that. Don’t tell her to look in the mirror and raise her arms, then quickly shave them. I’m still annoyed about that :( )
My girls (now 18 and 16) teach themselves many things (makeup particularly) by watching YouTube. I remember at some point thinking it was time to teach them to shave and they had already watched several videos on it and didn’t need my help. I was relieved because I’m terrible at shaving!
Know I am late with this input… but wanted to give my 2 cents. I am STILL feel embarassed when I remembee getting teased about under arm hair at the pool. I was 10, and hit puberty pretty early. I felt like a freak… which is not good. A helpful hint is prob best. Your way of explaining it as a general culture norm is prob best.