We have been touring some colleges with Rob; we’ve been bringing William along, which is one of the advantages of being born second to parents who tend to procrastinate about new things.
So far, Paul has done two of the tours and I have done one. So far, Paul is better at this than I am: he doesn’t panic about driving to new places, he doesn’t panic about what the parking situation will be, he doesn’t panic about maybe being late. But I did okay the one time I did it. Oh, what did ROB think? I have no idea. So far Rob has been driving me crazy by being shruggy about everything. One of the most famous colleges of all time and you would be lottery-winner-style lucky to get to go here? It’s okay, he guesses.
I am also thrown by this because in many ways Rob and I have similar temperaments, but on this topic we are OPPOSITES. By 8th grade I had chosen my college. It was a MISTAKE, I now believe, and I wish I hadn’t been under the impression at the time that all secular colleges were roiling pits of drugs and sex and alcohol and partying—but I was INVOLVED and INTERESTED, is I guess what I’m trying to communicate. I did college-search programs. I looked up the results in a book. I compared the merits of one to the merits of another. I made sure each one was the PROTESTANT kind of Christian and not, say, Catholic. …Okay, in retrospect there were some downsides to my searching methods, and perhaps being a little shruggy is not the worst thing someone can do for their educational prospects.
Anyway, I have some financial questions. We toured one college that said that tuition was free if the family made less than $XX,000 per year. Let’s say the family makes about $3,000/year more than that, and it’s because one of the parents recently acquired a part-time job. Should that parent quit her job? Or does the college then say, “Yesssssss, you do make under that amount, but one of you could be working so…”? Or is it like, it’s free if you make less than $XX,000, but it’s not generally a firm cut-off, and making $3,000/year more doesn’t mean they expect you to pay $56,000/year more in tuition, but instead would expect you to pay $3,000/year more in tuition? I know you’re not going to know the specifics of the specific college, especially if I am not telling you the specific college, but this is okay because I’m not actually asking about only this college and am wondering more about IN GENERAL what people have found about college financing situations such as this one.
Secondly, this same college said the free-tuition dealio was for families with “average assets.” This made me start thinking about our assets. I think we have more assets than some people: we are aware we have five children, and so we have been socking away for college. Also, I had a small amount of money of my own, and I invested it in Apple when Apple was $20/share. But…we’d like to divide those assets among the five children, not send the first one to college with almost no loans and have nothing left for the other four. Does a college understand that? Or are my fears correct that they expect you to drain the accounts before they’ll consider anything financial-aid-related? I mean, that would kind of be fair: what if none of our other kids even WENT to college? But it seems like poor planning.
Also, I would like to vent some general crabbiness. We are living in a small house, which we bought taking into account just one income. The kitchen is from 1960, and it wasn’t a good design then either; we have duct-taped some modifications into place, including using an old changing table as a countertop. We don’t have a garage. We have furniture with stuffing coming out of it. We only just replaced the mattresses the two older kids were sleeping on, which were my brother’s when he was a child. Each year we sent our tax refunds off to the mortgage. We don’t go on expensive vacations. We are doing all these things because we want to be better able to afford things like braces and college. I am feeling crabby because although I could be completely wrong about this, it seems to me that if we’d bought more house than we could afford, and had the kitchen remodeled, and added a garage, and bought new furniture every time the old stuff got shabby, and spent our tax refunds on vacations and a hot tub, and went out to dinner every week, we would qualify for a lot more financial aid. I’m feeling as if we’re going to get punished for all these years of me pining for my friends’ houses/kitchens/garages/meals/vacations, while they qualify for all the need-based scholarships.
I don’t see how it can be any other way (do I really want colleges to demand itemized spending records and a household inventory?), and I don’t want to live a way I consider unwise for our circumstances just to get need-based scholarships for the kids, but I am feeling theoretically cranky about the theoretical possibility of it. I guess I like to picture us as the cut-off: that any financial aid we don’t get would go to the people under us, who can’t afford the mortgage on a small house with a shabby kitchen, who have to spend their tax refund on their car insurance and medical expenses, etc. And not to the people I consider above us, with their island vacations and beautiful large houses and dinners out. It feels wrong to even think this way, because in theory I am an “everyone spends their own money in their own way” person—but when I picture the theoretical outcome in this case (someone else gets the vacation, the large house, the dinners out AND the financial aid, while we have none of those things AND no financial aid), I get theoretically upset.
If the college indicated the dollar amount you need to be under, my guess is that it is actually that amount. The assets are something I can’t speak to. Have you completed the FAFSA? When you do, it will let you know if you qualify for things like Pell and show your Expected Family Contribution. Do realize that when they look at income they will also factor in how many people are in the family. The program I work for is for low-income students and we have a chart of the income based on number in the household. I help students complete the FAFSA each year so I feel your pain.
So does that mean it would be better for me to quit my job, to put us back under that amount? This is the part where I think “Can they REALLY mean that?” It feels wrong to deliberately lower our income to qualify for more aid—but if quitting a $5,000/year job gets us $56,000/year in financial aid, that’s the only path that makes sense.
My experience with large organizations and income/asset limits is they mean exactly that much – if you’re over you’re over.
It might well be the case, although with financial aid stuff it seems there are surprises that pop up occasionally. But if you are looking for a good reason to end a job that you feel “meh” about, this might be it!
And it’s not wrong at all! It is just the way these things are organized, and if you are within 5,000 of the cutoff, then getting it under the limit is like using a tax shelter for your income. Not unethical. Practical. Undergraduate degrees are grossly overpriced.
It might be helpful to think about what year they will take your income from. If one were to quit a job in 2017 but the 2016 tax returns would be used to calculate income, then that could not help much and result in the loss of income. I’m not sure how this all works, but I know fiscal years/tax years and actual time and space don’t always line up.
That occurred to me too. The more details they can tell you, the better.
Yes, quit. Immediately.
Agreed. My experience is that if you are over, you are over, period.
They really mean that, and you probably should quit your job if you are that close to the cut off. However, while tuition won’t be free, I’m sure there will be some sort of needs based support and that would take into account that you are only $3000 over the cut off. It’s not an all or nothing situation for support in general, but it is for the free tution.
Also, I’m sure you have “average assets” They are probably talking about people who have $0 income but millions in assets and live off the interest from their assets.
If you are over the amount that makes it free, but only by a little your family would be unlikely to have to pay the sticker price. Instead you would most likely be offered a more traditional financial aid packages – grants, loans, work-study to help make it possible for Rob to attend.
I’m not from the US so my expertise comes from watching the Gilmore Girls, but I distinctly remember being taken aback when Lorelay had a cheque that was to pay for Rory’s high school passing through her own account, and then the college financial aid place said “nope, you’ve had 75k dollars in your account for two days, so you’re obviously well off and get zip”. That series was always pretty well researched, so since then, I’d assume those places deal mostly in absolutes.
As an employee of an institution of higher education I would agree with Jennifer and VHMPrincess. Ultimately, they (financial aid/student account offices) just look at the numbers. What is the income? In most cases the gov’t in consultation with each institution has come up with sets of figures that are used to calculate financial aid and that’s what is used. At my institution there is a “Financial Ombud” that students can meet with and that is where some of the more personal details are shared and small adjustments (small additional grant from the institution, personalized payment plan, etc…) are made. However, that is not the norm. Even then one of the first things they do is look at if the student has exhausted ALL opportunities for financial aid. The answer (again at my public institution) had better be yes before we are going to give anything else.
I frankly wish more parents were intentional about the financial impact of college when making that decision. I meet with students daily who are in crisis and finances are often a part of that. They are in debt, parents are making serious sacrifices to pay tuition… it baffles my mind. I’ll ask why they chose my institution when they can get [generic social science degree for example] at a public school in their home state much cheaper. They want the social experience or the adventure or access to a top athletics program…you name any number of non-academic reasons. Those co-curricular experiences are an important part of college life but are they worth massive debt and financial stress?
I would also ask those schools what they mean when they say you can receive $xxx. Does that mean it’s a grant or scholarship from the school or is it that they’ll make sure you get the financial aid which can mean massive loans that the student (or family) is responsible for paying back?
YES to finding out what the specifics are. It’s (comparatively) easy to say that it’s ‘free’ to attend a school if your family makes under $XX,XXX/year, but that can often mean that they guarantee that students have access to subsidized loans for at least a portion of it. And sometimes that just covers tuition – room, board and the ever-popular ‘fees’ are a whole other ball of wax.
If this school is a possibility for Rob, I’d encourage you to follow Jenny’s suggestion below and email a financial aid person there – they’d be able to clarify some of those specifics for their school, and might know of good local resources to check out for more general info. Ideally, your high school would have 1 or more guidance counselors that would specialize in this, but they’re often way too overwhelmed to deal with this level of detail.
Wait, are you serious? A school could actually define “free tuition” as “getting loans you have to pay back later”?
As for wondering if your friends with the bigger houses, etc, will get more aid because you have more money in the bank than they do, I’m pretty sure their home equity counts against them (and maybe even the value of the house regardless of their equity??). My husband’s family did not make much more money than mine, and had less money in the bank to pay for school, but did have a more valuable house, and we attended the same private college, and he got zero financial aid other than loans while I got a good amount of grants and ended up paying probably half as much. That probably also had something to do with my father’s savvy about the FAFSA, because I know he did some financial wizardry that helped us. I don’t know what that _was_, but I would do whatever digging you can to figure out how people optimize their financial aid.
Retirement savings and home equity are exempt as assets for the FAFSA. So when it asks for parental assets, one should NOT include home equity, life insurance policies, 401K, and IRAs, generally.
There are some more selective schools that also use something called the CSS and that is where home equity might be counted as part of the profile.
The number is the number. However making over that amount will not mean you have to pay the whole thing. You still qualify for aid but not in the way you would previously. There is a look-back period, so quitting now could help later but not this year or maybe next.
Private schools often have better aid packages so do not rule them out.
Financial aid does expect you do spend down all your assets first, so yes you do use them all on the fist child. Assets include any equity in your home though public and private schools handle this differently. Sadly, you will get more aid if you had spent all your money and accrued no equity in your home.
You definitely need to start with the FAFSA and the see how it shakes out with each individual school.
Oooh, a question I know the answer to! ASK. The financial aid people at each individual school want your tuition dollars, so they are sitting there ready to answer your questions (and they deal just as readily with email questions as with phone questions.) Write them an email saying, “We just took a tour of College of Knowledge with my son Rob Thistle and are very interested. I have these questions about financial aid:” and then just quote this blog post. They will answer thoroughly, though they may want specifics about your situation.
As Andrea says, private colleges look much more expensive but their discount rate is much higher than public schools, so don’t rule them out.
When my brother and sister were going to college at the same time, financial aid considered my parents’ need doubled, so they were paying the same amount of tuition for two as they had previously been paying for one.
Yes. This is the correct answer. And I speak as one with no granite countertops but with four children who got through college debt-free. Also with 27 years experience in private higher education. (Me, not the children.)
Yes, definitely ask. We can speculate, but my experience at mid-grade state university ten years ago likely does not apply to fancy-pants lottery school’s policies today.
I don’t know how motivated Rob is about financial aid, but he should apply to any little scholarship for which he qualifies (500 bucks from the local credit union, 300 bucks for books from the Association for Sons of Left-handed Plumbers, etc.). At no other point in life will people offer to write you checks just because you filled out an application and copy-pasted a little essay you wrote. Fastweb was the best place to search back when I was doing this. (It’s free, and you should never pay to search or apply for scholarships.)
I was super motivated to bring in the cash because my parents made it clear from the beginning that they had a set amount of money available to me in an account (the equivalent of one year’s tuition and board at a state school) and anything I needed beyond that would be my responsibility. Basically my process was to tour a handful of schools, apply to 3-4 that would suit me, and then wait to see the financial aid offers before I decided. I know a lot of parents assume they will pick up the tab for college, but I think the situation my parents presented was a great experience in learning how to shoulder financial responsibility for myself. If I hadn’t gotten a good scholarship from the place where I went, I probably would have gone to a cheaper school near home, did a couple of years at the community college, or at least thought very long and very hard before I took out a bunch of student loans.
Once you’re down to the nitty-gritty of the cost of attendance (tuition, room/board, AND fees), you should sit down with Rob and talk about student loan debt, how much money would go to interest, and what the payments would look like post-graduation. The university where I work now recently re-vamped their statements to show all these things in black-and-white, and the amount of loan money the undergraduates were accepting immediately plummeted. If you’re imagining yourself unable to buy a new car because you have $600 monthly student loan payments, then suddenly the extra loan money for the fancy meal plan might not seem worth it…
YES to what Squirrel Bait says about small scholarships from community organizations (Sons of Left Handed Plumbers- ha!). Each one may seem small, but they can add up, and you have nothing to lose by applying (NEVER pay to apply- that is not a scholarship, it is a scam).
Use Rob’s interests as a guide. I got small scholarships from my local Girl Scout council and one from my high school’s alumni association that was reserved for music students. You have mentioned he teaches piano- is there a local music teacher’s association or piano club? Fraternal organizations (Rotary, Kiwanis) often offer scholarships as well.
My older daughter just graduated from high school and I have no advice for you, only sympathies. We make too much to qualify for need-based aid and too little to actually save/pay for college. She busted her butt in high school to make good grades, was active and excelled in extra-curriculars, and received exactly zero in scholarships from her first choice school, a state university. The only financial aid they offered was a $5,000 loan. She’ll be attending our local community college and living at home for at least one year, possibly two.
We did find Andrea’s comment to be true, that private schools offered more in scholarships, but they also tend to cost more which for us negated the better offers. And yes, even though you have five children unless their college savings are in funds under their own names, you’re expected to use all those funds on Kid #1 first. It would be worthwhile to meet with a financial planner that has experience with planning for college; the amount you’d pay for their advice would easily be made up in later savings.
This was my situation exactly when I went to college. I didn’t qualify for need-based aid and despite good grades and extra-curriculars didn’t get many merit-based scholarships. BUT I qualified for a books and tuition scholarship at the local community college. So I attended college for 2 years for free and graduated with an associates and a 4.0. I worked closely with the transfer department with the community college so all my credits transferred. I received many scholarships from my university when I transferred. Basically I ended up with a degree from my preferred university for less than half of what my husband paid for a degree from the same university. So don’t think about community college as settling. Think of it as smart financial sense. Also, because community college is more laid back than a typical college or university I was able to be more adventurous and try a few classes I might not have chosen at a bigger school. Overall I feel like I got a better education because I went to community college first.
You know, I think I’m disappointed just because it doesn’t fit my own ideal of the perfect college experience. In reality I think it will be MUCH better for my daughter to ease into things, she struggles with a GI disease that would make living in a shared-bathroom setting difficult and I don’t think she’s entirely prepared for how much work college classes will be. In the end you’re absolutely right, she’ll get the same or better education and come out with less debt.
So, full disclosure, I’m the vice president of student affairs at a college and overseeing financial aid is one of my areas, but I’ll give the caveat that there are particulars of each situation that can vary. But, generally, your read on the tuition discounting is accurate. If school X waives tuition for families under $56,000, you might benefit by dropping your job. They are not in the business of assessing who “should” be working so that you could have a job but choose not to is irrelevant. What you do need to clarify is, for the income piece, do they mean actual gross salary or adjusted gross after deductions on tax forms? Also, are they going to go on the previous year’s taxes (when you might have still had the job) or is it there a way to supply them with new information. Also, you’ll want to make sure you what the policy on reviewing this annually is so that you don’t find yourself losing the discount if, say, Paul gets a pay raise.
Other folks have mentioned the FAFSA, which is of course a requirement, and all of your schools will use it to determine your “EFC” or expected family contribution. Your EFC will take into account assets but it doesn’t expect that a family will clear out their savings to pay for college. Your EFC is also based on family size and number of kids in college, so if/when you are in the position of having more than one child in college at the same time, you’ll generally get more aid.
In general, the things I wish more parents knew going into the process is this:
1. The sticker price for a college is unlikely to be what you’ll actually pay, especially if you are looking at private colleges. The last private liberal arts college I worked at, for example, was actually charging students about 40% less than what they said tuition was due to grants, small scholarships, etc. What is frustrating is that you won’t know exactly what your cost will be until spring of the senior year, so it feels hard to plan for in some ways.
2. Avoid, at all costs, parent loans and private student loans. If you have to take these out, the school is too costly for your family.
3. Beware of fees. Many schools are working to keep tuition levels from going up too dramatically but are making up shortfalls through student fees. At my last state university, a full time student could expect to pay over $1000 a year in activity fees, technology fees, and the like. When looking at costs, ask the school for the fee list too.
4. The FAFSA is a pretty straight forward but if you need help, there is generally assistance available through community agencies. You can look to see if there are “College Goal Sunday” events in your area. This is a national program for helping families get their FAFSA completed. You’ll want to make sure you get your taxes done and the FAFSA turned in as soon as possible in the spring of the senior year. About 30% of applications will be selected for something called “verification”. These means you have to supply paper copies of tax forms to the school that selected you. While verification can add a few weeks of processing time on to your application, it isn’t a sign that something is wrong. All schools have to verify a percentage of applications to stay compliant with federal regulations.
5. One of the very best ways to keep the cost of college down is to make sure your kids graduate in 4 years instead of the new normal of 5-6. How do you do this? Other than making sure you and your kid talk about the importance of this, consider things like size of the school and willingness to take in transfer credits. I am a BIG fan of students transferring in some general ed classes from community colleges so that the can stay on track to graduate.
6. Finally, consider big fish/small pond questions. If you have a child who is very academically successful, they might be able to get into Fancy Name University and get some aid. They might also be able to go to Private Liberal Arts College or Big State University and become one of their top prospects and get LOTS of aid. A kid who gets into, say, Duke or an Ivy by the skin of their teeth is the kid who many colleges would love to throw money at. If this is Rob’s situation, he’ll need to decided on how important the name of the college/university is to whatever it is that he wants to do next.
Okay, I could go on and on but I’ll wrap it up by saying that you, Swistle, are the dream parent that colleges like to work with. You may feel anxious (which is totally normal) but you are engaged and asking all the right questions for this stage in the process. It is overwhelming sometimes but you guys will figure it out.
I’m happy to answer any other questions if I can! This stuff is, literally, what I spend all day thinking about!
^ This is the most detailed and accurate information. I agree with all of it. (Especially the dream parent that is actually LOOKING at stuff and READING the papers we carefully crafted) :D
Best. Comment. Ever. Yes, Swistle, do all of this.
xox
Commit #2 to memory. But be aware, as I point out in my comment below, that even some official student loans are unsubsidized, which means interest is accruing while the student is in school. This ends up being very expensive.
Wendy has knocked it out of the park. If you can get Rob interested in summer school, you can even get him through in 3 – 3.5 years, which is a HUGE money saver.
I graduated in 3 years, my sister in 4, my two brothers who have graduated in 5 and 5.5. The costs of those extra years is ENORMOUS.
I hope Swistle is still blogging and that Wendy is still working in Higher Ed in, say, 9 years when my oldest heads off to college. Pinkie promise, ladies?
ooohhhhhh, me too!!!!
WOW. Wendy. THANK YOU. This is SO INCREDIBLY HELPFUL.
I agree with this! I know more than one person who knocked semesters off expensive, elite private schools by transferring credits they got at community college during senior year of HS or in the summertime. Best scenario I remember coming across is a friend who managed to take 2 or 3 classes at community college her senior year (this was offered for honors students at her public high school), then took another4 or 5 total during the summers between HS and freshman year and between freshman and sophomore year of college. She wasn’t earning money those summers, but she saved tens of thousands that would have otherwise been loans because all together the community college classes added up to a full year + of credits and she finished private expensive college a year early. She took a lot of her core 101 classes that way (she was a psychology major) and was able to focus on seminars at the private college. After graduating she immediately went into a fully funded Phd program (!) with a stipend (!!!).
Depending on your income level, the FAFSA is a pain in the ass waste of time (but you still have to fill it out). In 2009, when we were making maybe 100K (average income for our very expensive area) and were sending our oldest (of 6) to college, the FAFSA offered him nothing buy a $5000 UNSUBSIDIZED “student” loan. “Student” is in quotes there, because “unsubsidized” means that it accrues interest while the kid is in college (unlike the student loans of my day, back in the 80’s). Believe me, we had no extra money at that time, aside from 2 years of state tuition money per kid, set aside in a prepay account. Luckily, he got an ROTC scholarship for full tuition, so he was able to go anyway. They allowed us to use the prepay for room and board.
My friend’s son got into a competitive music program at Carnegie Mellon, which cost (at that time) about $52,000 a year to attend. This kid was the oldest of 5, the family lives in a townhouse, and the dad was making about $125K (before taxes). The family was expected pay $44K a year on their own; the kid was offered about $8000 in loans. Needless to say, he didn’t go.
There ARE colleges that do hand out real money (as opposed to giving just enough to bring it down to public university tuition level). Often these are state schools that are trying to recruit high-performing students from out-of-state. For example, University of Alabama at Huntsville (which has an excellent engineering college) has a very clear chart on its website that tells you EXACTLY how much they will give your kid, depending on test scores and GPA. It is rare to find that amount of clarity, a fact which pisses me off no end. The majority of schools encourage you to spend the money (a not inconsiderable sum for most of us) to apply, but refuse to give you a clear idea of what aid you can expect until April or May. This wastes your time and your money AND it sets your kid up for a big disappointment.
Also, do not forget that doing community college for freshman year can save a LOT of money. Also, it turns out that (at least in our state) there are scholarship funds set aside for students with decent GPAs who transfer in from community colleges. Again, there was almost no way to find this out ahead of time; we were pleasantly surprised when our daughter transferred to the university as a junior and received a $4000 a year bonus. Still, I would prefer this stuff was out in the open so we could plan.
Can you tell how much I hate the college application process here in the US?
I was VERY SURPRISED to learn that although I took out something close to $16k in loans to go to college, by the time I graduated I owed over $25k. That seemed… very very mean. I didn’t actually know there were loans that didn’t accrue interest during the enrolled period. That seems way better.
OH ME TOO
All of the above. You have great, smart, knowledgeable readers. My first thought when you mentioned that he is “Meh” about the search/plan is maybe community college, nearby would be an idea. Cheaper in many many ways, transfers from CC are perhaps looked at differently in terms of financial aid and give a student the chance to get early courses out of the way while determining (or solidifying) the student’s plan for their education.
Just had to pop in and say I invested in Apple too … Best decision ever!!
I know nothing of financial aid so I’m quite happy to read all the advice that you are getting, but I wanted to address the meh. I was an outstanding student in high school, but I guess I was seriously overwhelmed by he college process. My parents took me to dozens of schools and I really wasn’t excited about any of them. I ended up taking a class trip to my state school in the spring of my senior year and fell in love. But before that I really wasn’t exited at all. Like not at all. And in the end, it all worked out.
To your last point, I have an occasional pity-party that we live in a small house, go on inexpensive (camping, visiting people who have an extra room for us rather than staying in a hotel, etc) vacations, buy our three kids used stuff at the consignment store, generally scrimp and save, and make smart investment decisions with our money (refinancing for a better mortgage rate, saving each month in our 401ks and our college investment account) while we know SO MANY people who do the opposite: go on fancy vacations, buy new cars every few years, spend, spend, spend. I ask my husband (who is a CPA and therefore sees lots of tax returns and financial information, not that he would EVER reveal details to me), “what’s the deal?” It feels super unfair, but most of those people, the people I compare us to (I know, I know, I should stop), don’t make more money. They just spend more and are more in debt. Above all, they don’t save for retirement or college. So. I guess instead of feeling jealous in thirty years, I will feel comfortable with my flush retirement account and paid-off assets. There is some satisfaction in that, at least the satisfaction that we are doing the RIGHT thing, even if it isn’t the fun thing. I don’t mean to say that I feel “better” than others for making sound financial decisions, just that I wish everybody would make sound financial decisions so it wouldn’t be so hard to explain to my kids why all their friends go to Disneyland or Hawaii each year while we go… camping.
I don’t have much to contribute to the discussion about how to finance college because THANK YOU WENDY, but as someone who grew up thinking we were poor because our lifestyle was so much more pinched that that of pretty much everyone I knew, let me say that now, when my friends are middle aged and our parents are elderly, it is clear that my parents’ cheese-paring ways were worth it.
I go home and see many of my friends’ parents living in crumbling houses without a team of Swistles to come help, and then I go back to my parents’ cottage at the amazingly managed continuing care center they live in, and I do not care that we didn’t take real vacations or buy nice groceries or whatever. They are not going to outlive their money, and their kids all managed to get degrees in subjects they loved and become financially independent.
Slim, that comment is heartening, though I have to say that I wish my grandmother would allow herself to benefit from her “cheese paring ways” (love that expression). She’s almost 92 and, though she could afford it and despite some recent health issues, refuses to spend the money to go into any sort of living arrangement where she could receive help if she needed it, or at least have someone notice if she didn’t emerge from her apartment on her normal schedule. Nor will she allow any of us, her doting family, to spend anything on her – not even to get someone to just look in on her regularly. She’s deeply offended at the notion. She won’t even let my aunt or uncle, who live in the same city she does, drive her anywhere, or accompany her to doctor’s visits. She doesn’t even tell them when she has appointments and takes the bus! A lifetime of independence and scrimping has ingrained itself so deeply that her new goal is to live on her own terms until the end, and pass on an inheritance to her family. And all we want is for her to be safe, healthy and comfortable!
There are a lot of private scholarships out there too – essay contests, community aid scholarships, sometimes through volunteer organizations or churches. Your school’s guidance counselor should have some idea of where to start, at the very least. Only problem is that it takes a bunch of work, and Rob is “meh” about college right now.
It’s been 7 years since I’ve had to think about applying for scholarships for college, and it’s still stressing me out to think about.
Good luck!
I am almost finished paying for college and med school for my kids – two years to go on the non-med school one! We qualified for no financial aid – but both of my kids got some decent academic scholarships. I found FAFSA to be a joke in that they assume that almost every penny you make should be going to college. They neglect the fact that the government already gets over half of that. And that you might not want to live in a shack.
I am going to chime in on and add to what Wendy said about finishing in 4 years. If you want to save $25-50 K – make is clear to every one of your kids that you are available for financial assistance for 4 years only. Dropping classes because the 8 am thing isn’t for you, taking courses that don’t count towards your major, NOT GOING TO CLASS, and not keeping up in class are why kids take so long to finish. This is from personal experience and from having a child who currently works in the dean of engineering’s office at a major university. She signs drop froms – so she has seen and heard it all. Also – when that study abroad brochure shows up in the mail – toss it.
AP classes – one of my kids had 54 hours of credit and the other had 56 – are invaluable. My oldest used those hours to get two degrees in 4 years – biomedical engineering and psychology. The psych degree is useless – but it helped her to look impressive and to get a scholarship that paid her med school tuition. My youngest is going to finish in 4 years but is taking two semesters off to intern at a major oil company. The $54K she will make during that internship while still finishing in 4 years is due in part to her AP credit .
Also – jobs while in school are essential. Both of mine worked while getting all As and earning engineering degrees. It can be done. My oldest worked in a neurobiology lab. My youngest works at the deans office and in a nanoparticle lab.
And because it cannot be said enough – they must GO TO CLASS.
These are excellent points. Students should plan their schedules carefully to make sure they have the necessary classes to graduate in four years, and they should seek out relevant work/extracurricular activities which can help them financially and then later on the job market.
However, don’t rule out study abroad. At the institutions I’ve worked with, students’ existing financial aid can be applied to study abroad programs, and there are additional merit- and need-based sources of funding. Study abroad programs exist for students in all majors (including very structured pre-professional tracks) and can be done without increasing time to graduation. There are many, many benefits to studying in another country and learning about another culture, an important one of which is that students who make a dedicated effort to gain proficiency in a foreign language will be able to market that skill while searching for a job.
As a French professor who advises students all the time who finish in 4 years or fewer, this is right on the (literal) money. We have many study abroad programs where the only additional cost to go is airfare, and students can take classes that apply to their major and general education courses. It is so valuable to learn other languages and about other cultures! Students just need to plan it with their advisor.
I know your kids have achieved all this due to their own gumption, intelligence, and initiative, but I would still like to say,
EXCELLENT PARENTING! WELL DONE MOM & DAD!!
I hope I intill the same kind of values and work ethic in my kids as you’ve done with yours!! Nice work!
I agree with everything above EXCEPT – DO STUDY ABROAD! It is the most reasonable travel you will ever do, you will learn about another culture and be a better person because of it.
First of all – Thanks, Bitts! They do all of the work, and they are impressive.
Here’s my problem with study abroad for someone who is asking for help with financial aid and has 5 kids who are looking at college – it is never as cheap as they advertise. I have many friends whose chidren have done the abroad experience. It starts off as just a plane ticket (let’s say $1000). Then it is weekend sidetrips – “I may never get to go to Venice again” and “I’m right there – I had might as well go.” Add several thousand for those. Then- all of the eating out and booze – hundreds (or more) of extra there. Multiply this by 5 kids – and it is a substantial amount of money. And I am not including the special clothes, voltage adaptors, etc that they will feel they need. Travel is expensive. And if the first kid does it – it sets a precedent.
Plus- and I realize that I know way more engineering and pre-med students than most parents – the courses that you get do not necessarily help out with pre-reqs as well as they should. So academically you can fall behind more easily abroad.
Experience wise – my daughter who is interning at an oil company is getting experience that is far more applicable to her future career than she would get eating at French cafes. Plus – she is earning money. Yes – she won’t be able to talk about her paper explaining the well-researched subtle differences between pubs in different regions of England at her job interviews. But she will be able to talk about working on a start-up crew that put 4 distillation columns online in under a week. Around here that wins every time.
Finally – I spend a lot of money on my kids. But I do not feel that I owe them a 5 month trip. If anyone gets 5 months in Europe at this point, it’s going to be me and my husband.
OMG, my brother has just finished year 5 of a 4-year degree, then admitted that he just found out that he took courses that didn’t count towards his degree, and is STILL MISSING 3 COURSES HE NEEDS! How, HOW could he NOT HAVE FIGURED OUT WHAT COURSES HE NEEDS IN THE LAST 5 YEARS OF ATTENDING THAT PROGRAM?!?!
My dad F-L-I-P-P-E-D. Says he’ll pay for the final courses only if my brother moves home from where he’s been living – with his girlfriend and her mom and their 10 cats (!!!).
I, on the other hand, skipped tons of undergrad classes (didn’t go to a single class for 2nd year microbiology but turned in assignments and did the exams and still managed to pass), finished in 4 years with tons of extra course credits on top of my requirements, and went on to do a graduate degree after I finished undergrad. But I was both strategic and lucky, and don’t recommend skipping classes to anyone.
I think the most important college advice is to pick a major that will result in earning actual money. While college is an experience, the main purpose is to prepare for a career. You can “find yourself” and explore hobbies for free. I have a cousin who majored in something like Anthropology…interesting, but very minimal as far as career options go. He now works at a grocery store and has a mountain of student debt to pay off. All of my friends who majored in something “interesting,” like sociology or communications or whatever, ended up having to go to grad school to be employable. Those of us who chose based on future prospects (accounting, economics, finance, that sort of thing) got jobs immediately out of college and have never been unemployed.
“You can “find yourself” and explore hobbies for free.”
LOL! We live in a crazy world. Great post and comments section!
Yes to the working in college, also consider being an RA if necessary. Does it suck? Yes. Is free room and board awesome? Also yes.
This isn’t always the case. I majored in English and Art History, and when I left my job to become a SAHM last year I was a successful trade show manager with 5 direct reports. My husband majored in Communications and he is now a Senior Software Engineer. Our paths to get to our careers were maybe a little more circuitous, sure. But we learned skills in college that we use every day-critical thinking, writing, clear communication of ideas, time management, dissecting and understanding someone else’s point of view, and so on. If I’d had to decide what I wanted to do professionally at 18 I’d be miserable now, because I didn’t know jack.
I don’t think we are an exception, either. Many of my friends, even those whose major was directly applicable to a future job, are not working in the field they studied.
Unfortunately, the debt system puts an enormous amount of pressure on making a professional level of money right out of college, so I get the argument from that point.
I agree, Celeste. There’s an op-ed in the NY Times years ago (that I cannot find now) that I loved that was along the lines of “Why We Need Social Science Majors.” But “Starving for Wisdom” is a good read that I would highly recommend for those who think social science majors don’t have a place in our economy.
My degree is in Political Science. I never went to grad school, I’ve never been unemployed, I have a well paying job/career, I’m an on-the-cusp millennial. I knew from the minute that I chose my major that I needed to be realistic about the fact that I might never have a career that had anything to do with my major, but I wouldn’t go back and change my major for anything.
Lots of people have careers that have little to nothing to do with their degree and diversity in all places and all forms is a wonderful thing.
I have to chime in here too with a defense of liberal arts education. Yes, a recent grad with a preprofessional major is more likely to find a job immediately after graduation that relates to the major. However, as per a 2014 report from the Association of American Colleges & Universities, “by mid-career the earnings of humanities and social science graduates surpass those of graduates with professional degrees.” Here’s a succinct article from Forbes on the subject: http://fortune.com/2015/11/13/liberal-arts-degrees-critics/. Here’s the whole report from the AAC & U: http://www.aacu.org/nchems-report. Here’s a handy infographic: https://www.aacu.org/sites/default/files/files/LEAP/nchems.pdf.
I cannot resist mentioning that Justin Trudeau, the current Prime Minister of Canada, has a bachelor of arts degree in literature, and a bachelor of education degree. He formerly worked as a teacher. You just never know…
I have a slight nuance on how to pick what to study: make sure you understand what kind of jobs are typically attainable with a specific degree, and make sure you’re studying something that will lead to a job you like and want. I have a B.Sc. in biology, and an M.Sc. in botany. Interesting to study? You bet! Too bad that it was after 6 years of studying that I realized that there were very few botany jobs, and that I’d HATE looking through a microscope all day.
I realized, much too late to want to go back to school and start over, that I loved residential design and construction, teaching, and writing. And the clues were all there (I’d started a bank account at 11 to save to buy my first house, my bookshelf was chock full of house design books and writing reference books, and my favourite part of my Master’s was teaching the intro botany labs).
It’s not like I don’t have a good job (policy analyst). I can even claim to have a career. But it’s not something I’m passionate about and really just pays the bills. I get more personal satisfaction from renovating my house, and my side gigs of teaching at the gym and fine art photography.
A lot of what I was thinking has already been said, particularly about the cut-offs. One more thing to take into consideration: you have to apply for financial aid every year, and as your situation changes, the financial aid offerings will change, too. I’m the oldest of four, and my financial aid package changed drastically (and in a good direction) as my younger siblings entered college. The younger siblings also got better packages at the outset than I did. Had we known that was how it would go, I might have gone to a more expensive school– I was accepted to an ivy that I passionately wanted to attend, but went to a state school because the package the ivy offered wouldn’t have been enough if it was what was offered for each of the four years. (It wasn’t very happy at the time, but I now think that the state school was a better fit for me socially, and I’m pretty happy with my life. I don’t know how things would have been different if I’d gone to the ivy, but I don’t regret it.)
Regarding Rob and not communicating about colleges: the best advice I can offer is for you and your husband to pick two affordable-yet-good schools and tell him that he’s required to apply to both of them, and welcome to apply to any others he chooses. My mother had to do that with one of my brothers– he wasn’t enthused about the college search process and didn’t go beyond the required two, but he did attend and graduate from college when all was said and done.
I have a rising high school senior, and I totally get where you’re coming from. I don’t know if it would be better for her to go to a public university or a more expensive private one (if she can get in). She’s pretty introverted, so I think a smaller school might give her a better chance to blossom, but we have limited $$$.
Anyway, the only positive thing I have to add to the discussion is that the FAFSA and CSS will be available for parents to fill out on October 1, 2016.
I am so glad that you are coming before me and writing all these posts for me to think about.
Here’s something I’ve thought about in regards to college preparation: when my kids get to a reasonable age to start thinking about college (I don’t know? Eighth grade maybe?) I’m going to get them a couple of college applications to look at and ask them how they plan to fill it out. Like do they see any places where they don’t have anything impressive to write? Perhaps it is time to start volunteering or joining some clubs or whatever. Planning ahead stuff.
This is so good HereWeGoAJen I’m saving it for my son (he will be in 4th grade this August)!
Wow, what a great idea. Thanks.
The other thing to remember is that if he is a strong student for the college he wants to attend, but the financial aid isn’t enough, you can negotiate.
This is especially true at Ivies, which have large endowments and more money available. I went in, told them my parents couldn’t pay that much, and got rid of the parent loans the school suggested. Then I changed my assigned on campus job at the dining hall to tutoring, which paid more than twice as much, etc.
Yes, negotiating was possible when I went to college. We called up and talked to the financial officer at the small liberal arts school I attended. I got a “leadership grant” for about 2k extra/ yr. the only requirement was that I write a two page paper or something. I walked into the academic dean’s office as a senior to get permission to overload a credit hour or two. Also when I asked her how the university could charge the overload fee to me instead of my parents, she just waved it. I was stunned.
Also AP classes are AWESOME.
Perhaps rob is blasé because the ivy wasn’t a good match and he can’t articulate that. Re the ivy I looked at, it was not a good fit. They were so intense it freaked me out. One kid mentioned that you had to race to the library to get the book the professor had on hold so that you could read it before someone ripped the pages out of it. My mind was blown as an 17 yo. Not a good fit. I knew one college wasn’t a good fit before I stepped out on the car. Everyone was wearing plaid. There were multiple pickup trucks with shotguns strapped to the back. I remember thinking my parents were cool because I just said no, they laughed, kept driving, and we ditched the scheduled tour.
Study abroad and internships were career springboards for me.
Having a student loan at graduation is a good thing. Makes them have skin in the game while there. Incentivizes the job search. All of my friends who had no loans took longer to find good jobs.
By the time Henry gets thru school, you should be able to write a book. No, really, write the book. Clearly from this comment section, there is a need/want. Then you can pay off all your kids’ student loans or better yet, take you and Paul on your own study abroad trip.
I just wanted to add a thing about scholarships (or other aid, I suppose, but I know less about how financial aid packages might specify things): a scholarship for, say, “tuition” is a surer thing than one for $X. You can’t predict as a freshman how tuition (or whatever it is) might change.
I went to a good affordable state school with a nice scholarship for $X for four years. And then tuition DOUBLED from one year to the next. My scholarship was suddenly not nearly as nice. The doubled tuition was still cheap in the scheme of things, but still: DOUBLED! Absolutely nothing you could do!
I don’t have any advice about the financial aid but perhaps some tips for Rob’s shruggy-ness. I don’t know how you decided which colleges to tour. ie Are these colleges you think Rob might like and so you asked him to come? Or are these colleges that he said he wanted to go to? You sound like you were very organized when you were looking for a school, and I’m just wondering if you’ve asked Rob some of the questions you might have asked yourself at the time. Questions like, do you want to go to school close to home, or far away? Within driving distance, or you have to get on a plane? (which may or may not be an option – it’s awfully expensive to cart a child to/fro across the country for each school break – I know because my parents did it!) Would you like a public school or a private school? A liberal arts school or a school that is known for a speciality? A campus that is sprawled out or contained? A college that is in the center city, or close to the center city, or in a suburb, or out in the country? A campus that focuses on the Greek Life or not? A wet or dry campus? (Do they still do that?) A campus with little diversity or a lot? A college with tens of thousands of people, or a college with only a few thousand people? Etc. These are all questions I asked myself when I was trying to decide where I wanted to take a tour. And I had these answers and I knew what TYPE of college I wanted, and that helped a lot. If Rob is able to narrow it down like this, that will help. And then LISTEN to him and then don’t take him to a school that is TOTALLY OPPOSITE from what he wanted “just because we’re in the area.” (My parents did that and obviously I’m still pissed!!).
If he *can’t* answer these questions yet, that’s OK. Maybe he just doesn’t know yet. Maybe in that case it WOULD be wise to do a ‘this’ or ‘that’ and have him go there and ‘feel’ the campus energy. Ie take him to a small, contained campus in the city one day and then very soon after take him to a large, sprawling campus in the country. So that the contrast is right in his brain. Does that make sense?
I’m only 7 years away from all of this and SO NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING PREPARED IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM!
He was either meh or split on all the questions, like college size and distance and Greek and so on. It makes it hard to fill out those helpful college-selection thingies online! We had him make a starting list of schools he wanted to visit, and he wrote down a few. I suggested another one that was within reasonable visiting distance, and he said that sounded good to visit. So far we’ve visited two of his plus the one I suggested.
Sounds like you are doing the right things. Maybe he just hasn’t found “the one” yet:)
OK, so on the one hand I went to college back in the dark ages and I do know things have changed. But — I went through my high school years insisting I was going to be a ProfessionalEquestrienneThankYouVeryMuch and thus didn’t put a lot of thought into college, though I did more or less keep up my grades, etc., and when I did realize I needed to apply to colleges (because: ha!), I picked 4 rather vaguely. It all turned out fine. And I’ve been on college campuses ever since, in student, faculty, and staff roles at state and private, first-, second- and third-tier, and research and liberal arts institutions, so I feel reasonably knowledgeable about the places. What I always and perpetually tell aspiring students AND their parents is that where you go is much (so much!) less important than what you do while you’re there.
In sharp contrast with @Allyson, I’d advise them to explore and find what really motivates them and not worry about what their major will earn them. If they find something they love, they will excel at it (including “side” skills, like learning to write well and/or use statistical tools) and find lucrative jobs. IMO.
Otherwise, further musings on applications and costs. Well, applications aren’t free so you may need/want to set SOME limits, but basically, let him apply wherever he wants (regardless of cost, though do have a couple of “safety schools” in the mix), since as others have noted you really don’t know what YOUR family will pay until you know how much they want him as a student.
In terms of the FAFSA, note that recently this switched from using “this year’s income” for “next year’s college costs” and there’s now a two-year lag — simplifies matters (because of timing of completed tax returns) for filling it out, but of course complicates planning ahead (e.g. quitting a job). And for FAFSA (and public institutions generally), home equity and retirement savings will not count, so anything you can sink into those places (Pay down your mortgage? Fully fund Roths? Etc.) will reduce your expected contribution, relative to otherwise, if otherwise means you have assets e.g. in savings accounts that appear available to apply to college costs (again, may not be true in the case of private schools). A quick google on “FAFSA” and “tips” (I added “Money Magazine” because I remembered seeing an article there recently, and this turned up several useful pieces, not all in Money Magazine) will help.
@Alexicographer Yes, I totally disagree. While in an ideal world a person will be able to make money doing what they love, that just isn’t the case these days. Certain majors are vastly more employable than others. I’m not saying someone should choose a major they hate for the sole purpose of making money in the future; there needs to be a balance.
I met someone who majored in medieval studies and was recently hired to work as a financial analyst. Do the past three months count as “these days”?
It’s worth thinking about what jobs are out there and what skills they require. But there are a whole lot of jobs that require a blend of skills — say, a knowledge of basic statistics and an understanding of how government regulations and strong writing skills. The classes you’d need to develop those skills would still leave plenty of room to major in history or some other field that supposedly has no market value.
Similarly, there’s a lot of love out there for STEM as the path to a solid career. But most places don’t want to hire someone who loves pure math. There are tons of biology PhDs who can’t find a permanent job.
That’s awesome, good for them! But that’s not the norm. I agree that it is best to be well-rounded. If history is a passion (and, like you mentioned, it develops great writing skills), super! But maybe think about adding it as a double major or a minor. I’m not saying certain majors have no value.
Degree in anthropology and working in a grocery store isn’t the norm, either.
http://chronicle.com/article/Liberal-Arts-Majors-Have/236749
@Allyson fair enough, and this isn’t in fact my area of expertise — I can’t point you or anyone to research concerning the link (or not) between “love of major” and “good job.” Still, this is my observation (and personal experience) and I’ll stand by it.
I do think that within reason, both strategies can work, and no doubt both can fail.
I think I plugged Where You Go is Not Who You’ll Be by Frank Bruni on your blog before, but it’s worth doing again. He breaks down why the Ivy (or fancy private school or whatever) price tag may not be worth it for your kid. In my experience in the graduate school admissions process and professional job interview realms, very few (no?) people cared where I did my undergraduate work, as long as it was at an accredited college/university. They were more interested in how I spent my time while I was there, what sort of undergraduate research I did, what jobs I had, what interesting things I was reading, etc. It seems doubtful that anybody could fully tap out the resources/opportunities/interesting people at any half-decent college or university, so there are other practical considerations that should be more important. If you can find a place where Rob will be happy and motivated to get the most of his college years, that’s where he should go.
This view is supported by Malcolm Gladwell – in his latest book David and Goliath, he argues that it’s better to be a big fish in a small pond when it comes to university (college in the US). It’s an interesting read.
I have very little to contribute that hasn’t already been said, but I did want to mention that lots of schools will offer scholarships for particular majors, and it’s worth looking into even if your kid doesn’t actually want a career in that area. For example, my brother did a lot of drama and choir in high school. My mom made it pretty clear that this would be a dead end as far as jobs go, but he was offered a scholarship from the music department of a local state school, so he made that his major. He then took computer science as a minor. He now works in IT, and only sings for fun. Obviously, different careers have different requirements – sometimes, you have to have a degree in a particular field to get a job in that field. But I thought it was kind of neat that he turned his hobby into the thing that (partially) paid for college, had a great time doing concerts and college theater, and then went on to do something completely unrelated for his paying work, based on a relatively small handful of classes he took.
So much good advice. I do know someone who was accepted into a very good (not quite Ivy, but close) private school and the parents called the admissions people and said, this is what we can afford to pay (taking into account their other kid) and the school worked with them on tuition. That would be worth a shot.
I’m the oldest of 5 whose parents made very little money and therefore I qualified for the best subsidized loans. And I went to a state school in the late 90’s where tuition and room and board was less than $10,000 per year. I was incredibly lucky. My sisters went to the same state school 13 years later when tuition had probably doubled and my parents made a lot more money (and had a lot less kids at home). My sisters couldn’t get any unsubsidized loans and very few subsidized loans. My parents had to loan each of them somewhere in the neighborhood of $20,000 each.
You’ve gotten a lot of good financial aid advice. Let me add the importance of checking out the school itself. My oldest went to a small private school with the (non need-based) aid they gave him, and graduated in four years. My second one went to the nearby state university with no financial aid. The price of the two degrees wasn’t that different, because the one at the state school took five years. As I talk to people about this, I find that that school has the reputation for taking five years to get through, because they try to run very lean and they don’t offer the classes people need often enough. I wish I had known this about the state school, it’s apparently common knowledge around here. My third one, we didn’t even apply to that school.
Here’s my experience, so far, for what it’s worth. I have a 19 year old who went to a college in a neighboring state with a scholarship that gave him 1.5 times in-state tuition. He got some money from grandparents, saved some, we gave him some and he took out a little in loans. Unfortunately, he utterly ignored the GO TO CLASS lectures mentioned by someone above (and given multiple times by me), and had to come home after a semester. He is now at one of our local community colleges, living at home, and making good grades. He and I both said afterwards that if we really realized how much cheaper community college was, we would have given it more consideration. He also told me that he never really cared about having “the college experience”, that was me pushing him to choose an away-from-home college. He is ADD inattentive, and I think he just wasn’t ready to get it all together.
So, with a daughter going into her senior year of college, what have I learned? Not much, because they are two totally different kids! But I will definitely have her give more consideration to staying at home and doing community college. I somehow thought it was beneath my brilliant special snowflakes, but it’s an amazing value and a very decent option.
Her main problem was that “everyone else knows what they want to do”. Um, no. They think they do, but probably don’t. But you can’t tell that to a 17 year old. She finally decided to focus on schools with strong math departments, even though she is an amazing writer. That did help a little, but I still find the whole process overwhelming. There are sooooo many choices out there! How do people find these little random liberal arts colleges that I hear about after the fact?
Anyway, I am thoroughly enjoying this comments section – thanks for bringing it up!
About money cut offs: my cousin got a full ride to a private college. Worked over the summer after his first year to afford books. It put him over the edge money wise for family income and he lost his scholarship. He had to go to community college for a bit. It sucked. But! He’s a doctor now.
A couple of things:
Make good use of the “common data set.” You can google it using the college’s name + common data set. Or google the college name + institutional data. IMO this is on the best resources for getting the nitty gritty info on a college.
Then, take a look at his SAT (or ACT, as the case may be) scores and see where he falls (this amongst the many other useful things you can find on there.)
You can also use it to figure out what percentage of non-need based kids get merit scholarships and what the average amount is.
We guide our kids to either look at schools that we can pay for with the money we have saved for them, or alternatively, to apply to schools in which the SAT score is at or above the 75%. That makes it likely that a scholarship will be offered to them that is fairly generous. If they don’t have great scores and the college is really expensive, then we don’t even go there with them.
Finally, we have told all our kids that it is up to them to “bloom where they are planted.” KWIM? No doubt there were high schools out there that would be the most ideal match for your kid ever. But he went where he went, he did fine, he took advantage of opportunities offered to him, and he was happy (I am assuming, anyway.) That can be done at college too. There is no “perfect one”- there are lots of perfect ones, and part of making it perfect is deciding to go there and shine.
I just wanted to thank you for advocating for blooming where you’re planted.
I think balancing “Bloom where you’re planted” and Swistle’s policy of Snot judging other people’s Startling Expenses (https://www.swistle.com/2012/07/17/startling-expenses/) will get most of us through the college selection experience.
Just going to chime in to point out that you’re looking at 12(?) years of children in college coming up ahead, which is a lot of time that you could be advancing in your career and finding a job that really suits you…or conversely, a very long commitment to not earning any money in order to keep your family income below a certain threshold.
Also, if you’re that close to the income cut off, it might be worth looking to see what other university’s income cut offs are and maybe there are some that you’re below. For example, the fact that you’re only using 5 x’s makes it seems like Stanford would probably not charge you tuition:
http://financialaid.stanford.edu/undergrad/how/parent.html
And Harvard makes it pretty clear that if you earn less that $150,000, you will not be expected to pay any more than 10% of that.
https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works
I went to junior college for three years and transferred to a private school that had a better reputation than it deserved. I got a lot of scholarships through my junior college and my mom took a second mortgage on her house(!) to pay the rest. As an adult, I appreciate the sacrifice more now than I did then. They counted the fact that my mom had a lot of equity in her home against us, which sucked big time. I remember her voicing similar complaints that we should have lived larger. Hopefully, things are better now. This was 20 years ago. My experience in a junior college was good. I lived at home, worked at a pizza place to save some money and payed a little room and board. I was very young and needed a little time to get it together. I still keep in touch with my junior college mentor.
Such great comments here!
I am not American so don’t know much about all theses specifics but I wanted to throw out the idea of a gap year. Maybe not for Rob. Maybe not for most people. But if you have a kid who is very meh about university and doesn’t have any idea what they want to do, there is the option of taking a year and volunteering, working a little, learning a whole new language, (very do-able in a year if they are immersed away from English speakers) and getting to know another culture. All great skills and looks good on a resume, contributes to personal development and may well focus the kid on the value of a university education and help them figure out what they want to do.
A good gap year experience does not need to be spendy (the kid might end up breaking even) but it can be very enriching. Better than ‘wasting’ a year being miserable and uncertain and spending a lot of money on courses they’re not at all sure they want to take.
I can imagine that for some kids doing tailor-made, non-international gap yeas with a combo of a few college courses + part time work + lots of volunteering and skill building would be a good option if an international gap year felt too risky or expensive.
There are many paths to becoming a successful, responsible adult.
Ooh! Yes, I meant to mention this and also because I suspect that many colleges would (a) accept Rob and then (b) allow him to take a gap year (if requested with an appropriate explanation of why it would be valuable) which could (c) allow Swistle to e.g. quit her job, if she decides that’s the way to go, and bring income down to a level that would be below the aid cutoff, if it is in fact a “cliff” at the relevant school. May still require 2 years of planning (given what I mentioned about the FAFSA, above — 2-year lag), but after all, college is generally a 4-year experience/cost.
And — yes, to those advocating AP courses, etc. to accelerate progress.
My dad let my brother take a “gap year” (same brother as above going into his 6th year of a 4-year degree in the fall). He even encouraged him to do so as it’s very common in Scotland where my dad is from, and was willing to pay for him to volunteer overseas, etc.
I don’t think what dad had in mind was “spend a year hanging out with my girlfriend and use the proceeds of a very-part-time job to support our mutual social lives”, but that is what happened. A gap year is great if you actually do something even a little worthwhile, or even if you just need to mature for an extra year before taking on more school. But I certainly saw neither happen in my brother’s case. And it KILLED me, because if I’d had the opportunity to travel and volunteer and learn like that when I was younger, I would have jumped on it! Alas, my dad’s financial circumstances were very different when I was my brother’s age, 20 years earlier…
I have no real advice as I paid zero attention to what my own parents did for me college-payment-wise (and in hindsight I wish they had made me pay attention), and my own kids are over a decade away from starting this process. But I agree with you 100% on the unfairness of it all.
Also, it was alluded to in other comments but I figure it’s worth mentioning in greater detail here–some schools have EXCELLENT transfer programs. For example, Virginia Tech has a program where they will automatically accept students who have X GPA (I can’t recall what the number is but it was reasonable) from a community college after 1-2 (again, I can’t remember exactly but I think 2) years. My cousin did this–he desperately wanted to go to Tech, but it’s so competitive he didn’t get in despite having like a 3.8 and a crapton of academic and athletic extracurriculars in HS (another school actually offered him basically a full ride because of his background in the HS marketing club, but it was not a school he actually wanted to go to and was way farther away than his parents preferred). At any rate, he did 2 years at community college to get some gen eds out of the way, got great grades, and when he applied to Tech through this transfer program he was automatically accepted.
Unrelated but interesting: A lot of Virginia schools also have a partnership of sorts with New Jersey because NJ doesn’t have any (or very few?) state schools. I had a ton of friends attending Virginia Tech with me who were from NJ but paying in-state tuition because of this.
I hope I am not . . . . edsplaining? Is that a thing? . . . . but Colleges That Change Lives can bttre helpful to the directionless and the frustrated.
http://ctcl.org/
I’m really surprised not to see more love for community college. I am a community college graduate, and no one has ever sniffed disapprovingly at my resume. I never even got around to transferring to a four-year for a degree and I still make a good living. Not vacations and kitchen remodels living, but eat out once on the weekend and once during the work week, get bimonthly pedicures and buy whatever I want at Target kind of living, which is really all I’m looking for.
If you really think about the first two years of college, you’re basically taking English 101 & 201, some math, and some core humanities type stuff those years. Why pay 50 Gs a year for those classes when there’s an option that costs 5 grand? I get wanting to have the full college experience, but that’s not necessarily out of the question with community colleges–I went to a CC that had a dorm, so I got the full live away from home and make new friends experience for another 4 or 5 thousand bucks. This was 25 years ago, so pricing has probably gone up, but I guarantee it’s less than two years room, board, and tuition at a four-year school. And quite frankly, while fun, the experience isn’t worth$50,000. :)
It may be too late for Rob, but you should also check to see whether your state has any sort of Running Start program. Here in Washington, high school juniors can sign up for community college classes absolutely free, except for books and lab fees. I know three kids who graduated high school with an AA degree, and then started college as juniors, and another who had enough credits to start college as a 3rd quarter sophomore. Even if a kid isn’t quite that driven, every class you take for free now is one that you aren’t paying for later.
This is also my professional field (I used to work in college admission, now work as a college counselor at a high school). Wendy gives great, detailed advice above, and there is so much good anecdotal perspective from everyone else too!
Just a a few more things that could help:
-Each college has something called a Net Price Calculator on its website. You can fill it out using basic income information and it will give you a financial aid estimate for that college. You may do this at any time, and try it different ways (for example, one without your income and one including your income) to see if it makes a difference in the theoretical financial aid package. You should try it at several different schools, since each college has its own financial aid awarding formula. This isn’t a financial aid application, just an estimator.
-Most private colleges require the CSS Profile in addition to the FAFSA form. Beginning this year, both forms will use “prior-prior year” data – for a senior graduating in 2017, the family’s income information for 2015 income will be used for financial aid calculation. The student will re-apply each year, so for that student’s sophomore year, 2016 information will be used, etc. (This is true only for income; assets are reported at the time the student is filling out the form.)
-I also encourage you to meet with someone from the financial aid office as you visit colleges. They could advise you with the most up-to-date information on all of this. As you can see above and hear about in daily life, paying for college is a topic that many people have opinions and personal anecdotes about. The process changes each year and is institution-specific, so the most accurate information will come from the experts.
-Here is a (somewhat overwhelming) list of trustworthy sources of information:
http://www.nacacnet.org/issues-action/LegislativeNews/Pages/Paying-for-College.aspx
My favorite book on the admission and financial aid process is this one:
https://www.amazon.com/College-Admission-Application-Acceptance-Step/dp/0307590321/
-I spend a lot of time talking with teenagers about college, and a lot of them, boys especially, start out with the “meh” reaction to all of it. Until it’s time to start filling out applications, it often doesn’t seem quite real to them. You are doing exactly the right thing by opening up opportunities for conversation and giving him some examples of colleges to react to when the time comes to apply. It is likely that there will come a (very frustrating) time when he suddenly decides to engage and then wonders why it’s all happening so quickly. At that point he might also change his mind completely about the type of school he wants or what he wants to study or where. You might stock up on the See’s candy in anticipation of this time, but rest assured that it’s normal and he will appreciate it if you can be the adult in his life who doesn’t tear out their hair and remind him that this all could have been figured out much earlier.
-Speaking of things he’ll appreciate, you can also be the person who runs interference when everyone around him (family members at Thanksgiving, orthodontist, neighbors, whoever) is peppering him with questions about college. If it seems to be helping him process, great. However, if he’s trying to figure it all out and it feels like pressure, he will be very grateful if you can swoop in and change this subject. I worked with one family who actually hung a sign on the front door at their Christmas party that said “Welcome! Please do not ask Jane about college tonight.” (You as his parent are, of course, supposed to be asking him about college. This goes for everyone else.)
-Finally, as you’ve heard from everyone above and experienced yourself, there are all kinds of paths to and through higher education. Most of them are great and almost none of them are perfect. He will almost certainly end up with a college experience that is different than he imagines it will be (I find that’s true of most complex life stuff like jobs or marriages or whatever), but the experience will be defined more by him than by the school he chooses.
“It is likely that there will come a (very frustrating) time when he suddenly decides to engage and then wonders why it’s all happening so quickly”—HA HA HA! I can SO picture this happening!
This seems like the defining behavior of being a teenager that makes me feel sympathetic toward my own mother. “WHY DIDN’T YOU TELL ME?!” Yes dear, we did tell you, twelve thousand times.
One other strategy that works for some families is to designate a day or night of the week when college talk is fair game. This sometimes curbs the “Meh” behavior because they child is more mentally prepared for the conversation, and the parents have avoided the frustration of nervously circling, watching for an opportunity to bring up the topic when an opening appears.
If your school has a college counselor, you might loop them in here or ask William to make an appointment and report back. They may have good advice that would (again frustratingly) be heard more clearly by a child than advice from his parents.
(Also, forgot to say this in my epic comment earlier, but I second the recommendations for Colleges That Change Lives and looking into a gap year!)
I think my epic length comment got eaten but–a friend of mine who is very middle income (owns a hair salon, husband a machinist) hired someone to guide her daughter & the family through the college and financial application process. It was a few thousand dollars but it was invaluable–daughter was helped to target colleges to apply to based on interests & finances, daughter applied to a number of private universities that were very generous with financial aid. My friend said the expert was very very experienced in sorting through the very complicated college and financial aid application processes and was well worth the money. The daughter is going to a well-respected private college in California and paying less than $5000/year.
It seems crazy to pay for a college applications/financial aid “tutor” but, on the other hand, a college education is an expensive and important investment in the future. It sort of sucks that the process is so complicated, but I am of the opinion not to fight the system, work the system.
I haven’t read all the comments, but I am a veteran of the Financial Aid wars.
Everything is bottom line. They take nothing but numbers into consideration. I thought for sure, when my daughter started college, that she would get some free federal aid. I wasn’t working, and that did affect my decision to not work the last year or so of her high school years, because I thought it would impact the amount of money she would get for college. HA!
I was definitely influenced by the fact I got a Pell Grant when I went to school-no matter what happened my tuition was always paid. I thought she must qualify for that-but now you have to be so below the poverty level to qualify-there was no way. We are luckier than most though, I live in Alaska and they have what is called the Alaska Performance Scholarship-and you get different levels of free money depending on certain things, and you have to go to a state school. That was some free money at least.
So…we took on the Direct Plus loan as parents, and she has a smaller amount of subsidized loan. The amount they think we should contribute??? We would have been out on the freaking streets without taking out loans. We live a very low key life, and I seriously had a rude awakening when I started dealing with financial aid.
Good luck! Also, start applying for any scholarship that might be applicable for your son. Last year my daughter got a $1000 a year scholarship for writing, that she doesn’t even remember applying for! There are some out of the norm scholarships out there-like some that are just for the field he might be interested in, or some for people from a certain hometown.
Consider total family income versus the financial aid income cutoff when one or more of your children are working during the summers. This might be an issue in future summers when you have several high school age kids.
I don’t have a kid in college yet, but recently someone gave me parenting advice that I inadvertently had followed as a teen myself: let your kid pick a school or two of interest and then have them figure out how to visit for a night or two on his/her own. I did this with the school I ended up at, and somehow doing the visit on my own made me feel like I was in control of, invested in, and responsible for my future. And it might make the “meh” feelings go away?
Do not take out parent plus loans or direct plus loans ever. They are evil – cannot be refinanced and impact your credit score plus your kids score for the life of the loan. Your kid misses a payment after they graduate it’s on your credit score. And the debt is part of your debt to income ratio, even if your kid is paying back the loan. Cannot be adjusted for kids income like most loans. Stay away.
Also a comment on the “find a job/major you love” comment. I think this is kind of bs. Find a job/major that doesn’t suck and know your “why”. My “why” I go to work is my family and my hobby. My job is mostly cool but when the job sucks knowing “why” I go to work is the most important think for keeping me afloat. We put lots of pressure on kids when we tell them they must LOVE a college and a major. Kids just need to major in something they don’t hate to support their passion. On occasion someone happens to get a degree in their passion but many passions are just not careerers and that’s OK.
This is excellent advice. How many people grow up dreaming of becoming accountants, plumbers, grocery store managers, etc? Yet these are the people who run the world. I think most of us happen into a career.
I couldn’t agree more on the “love” thing. I spent 4 years of college feeling more and more desperate that I wasn’t finding something I LOVED. Luckily I stumbled into something my 5th (final) year that I still do 20+ years later, and enjoy quite a bit, most of the time. But do I LOVE it? I don’t know – it’s challenging and interesting, but also frustrating and stressful and sometimes seems meaningless. It’s WORK. I’m not sure how someone would have explained this to me when I was 19/20/21, but I wish someone had tried.
And I try, as a general rule, to not ask teenagers what major they will choose. I remember the enormous pressure of being asked that by seemingly everyone I talked to during my late HS/early college years, and finally just making something up to satisfy them. But because I was young, I thought I actually had to try to DO the thing I had made up. Hated it. So now, I ask kids what classes they might like to take, or what interests they might pursue at college. I think it should be illegal to ask anyone under the age of 21 what they plan to do with their ENTIRE LIVES.
I’m so hoping my children will choose a decent-sized university that has many good options, rather than putting all their college selection eggs in one basket that was likely chosen out of a tiny amount of exposure or desperation to declare. What happens when you’ve chosen a tiny college based on your (supposed) love of Obscure Profession, only to discover after a semester or two that you actually hate the the studies that lead to that profession? Wouldn’t it be nice if you could gracefully change course without having to leave the friends you’ve made and environment you’ve grown familiar with? I am so biased, of course. My own experience colors all of this. But so YOUNG! So little real information about life!
Wow. I had a lot to say about this. Swistle, thanks for the group therapy, as always. ;)
I don’t know if you read on reddit yet, but I’d recommend looking there for answers as well. There’s a number of sub-forums you might find interesting, like https://www.reddit.com/r/Paying_For_College/ or many questions and answers strewn throughout the site (they have a search function, though the results can be overwhelming).
One thing I’ve seen on there time and again is people saying that they wish (or are glad to have done so) they had attended community college first and then transferred credits. Many say they’ve finished college with half the debt by doing that and living at home, and then only going on to an out of state college when it got more specialized. When doing so, Rob would need to be aware of what credits can be transferred and which one’s can’t, or if the university he might ultimately want to go to may not accept transfers at all, but it definitely is worth looking into.
Here’s a short exchange I found on there, obviously not written by me:
“I got into a really good school, so nobody even mentioned the possibility of taking the big lecture classes at a community college, transfering the credits and taking only the classes for my actual major at the university. It doesn’t matter where you take intro to Poli Sci if there are 200 people in the class. I cringe to think of how much less I would owe in student loans if I had spent the year after high school living with my parents and taking freshman level classes at community college.”
Answer 1 to that:
“But check if they accept the credit. I go to NYU and they are super dicks about everything.”
Answer 2:
“You just described my life. Very good advice!”
Answer 3:
“As someone who did this, I think getting into a real school is much more important. MUCH better teachers, better peers, better cred. Also, it’s next to impossible to transfer from a community college to a really good non-state 4-year school.”
There’s obviously a wide gamut of opinions, but I doubt anyone is going to ask where a graduate has spent freshman year.
I know that in the US the whole college culture is made a huge deal of, but I think not being deeply in debt by the time you only begin your work life is worth a hell of a lot more.
In my country, the years that are equal to college (school years 11-12 or -13) are part of regular school for the students who go that way, and we live at home for them, too. University comes after that, and only then do people leave home for that, or don’t, and choose one close enough to commute. The thought that young adults that aren’t even considered real adults yet by all other laws are supposed to make choices that can cost them many 10k, if not more, in debt is pretty scary. I’m glad for your kids that have parents who are so actively involved and also pragmatic. It’s so easy to just believe it’s all fine to take out huge loans with numbers that are made to look small, and then get a very unpleasant surprise a few months after finishing a degree.
Oh! Oh! One more thing. I think the transfer option is a great one for lots of people. But if at all possible, try to keep from transferring mid-year. It’s so hard to drop into a dorm/social scene/group of friends in the middle of the year. It’s so much easier in the fall, at the start of the year, when everyone is in the same state of meeting people, forming friend groups, establishing routines, etc., and there are several other new people starting as well.
I feel the same way about kids graduating HS a semester early and going to college at mid-year. It’s so hard on them – everyone else has already had a semester together, and the new arrival is left out by no ill intention. I saw it happen to kids in my dorm, and I remember thinking “I’ll never send a kid to college mid-year.”
I know this may sound absolutely insane, but hear me out. Is Rob at all interested in living or studying abroad? And is he interested in a more technical field like computer science or chemistry etc? If so, he can go to college anywhere in Germany for free– Germany doesn’t charge international students for tuition and in some cases he could get a stipend for living expenses. Many programs are taught entirely in English.
This is a comprehensive guide: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678
I’ve spent a lot of time in Germany/Europe and it is extremely safe– much safer than the US– with a far healthier college culture. The student/university towns are FUN and not as isolated or focused on frat/Greek life as they are in the US. He would need to take German classes, but you don’t need to speak even basic German to get around. The lingua franca of all German campuses and university towns is English, English, English.
Just an idea. Good luck!
Also just to add that the quality of instruction in Germany is very high, especially for sciences, and Rob would most likely be well prepared to come back to the US for a job.
(All this goes out the window, of course, if he’s intent on majoring in American History or something…)
This is a link that lets you search for German programs by instruction language, type, and degree. You need to select Bachelor’s and English as the language: https://www.daad.de/deutschland/studienangebote/studiengang/en/? These programs are all free.
The BBC link also has a chart showing example extra expenses for Americans by university town, like housing, food, etc…they total around 500-800 a month.
In case it isn’t clear, in most of Europe you apply directly to a major/degree program and it’s pretty hard to make drastic changes after that, though not impossible.
We get financial aid (for elementary school OMG) and the national program through which we apply every year absolutely has is itemize everything, in part, I imagine, because they would rather give aid to people who actually nees it than to people who need it because they have a giant house, two boats, and a summer house in Turin. They ask about investments, vacations, club memberships, any income from the child him/herself, grandparents’ income/assets, what kind of car(s) you drive, mortgage, medical bills, unexpected expenses (say you needed a new roof one year), number of kids and what you pay for them for school/camp/wherever, and yes, whether or not both parents work, and if one doesn’t, why that is. They know EVERYTHING. And they want to re-know it every year. The national company then sends a recommended amount of aid to our school, and the school uses that as a basis from which they make adjustments related to COL and what they can afford and how much they like you and whatever else. It feels to me like a very sound system, and although this may not be how it works at the college level, this at least gives you questions to ask. The national service we go through is called the NAIS, if that helps.
I work for a junior (read community) college, that also offers a few Bachelor’s degrees as well. Take required/freshman level course (and see if they are guaranteed transfer courses) at a community college. This will save money as well as giving Rob and any of your children time to figure out what they want to be or do. Also I would strongly recommend a dual enrollment or running start program if your school district offers it. In a program like this a student can sometimes get some of their required courses out of the way while they are still in High School (and sometimes even graduate with an Associate’s degree). A great money saver. It might be too late for Rob, but definitely something to keep in mind for the other 4. And yes the FAFSA is a big determiner in aid provided but don’t turn down private aid either.
I apologize if someone already suggested this, but I got through college a semester early by taking more than the usual full load of 16 credits a semester. It took a lot of planning because I had to make sure that I spread out the difficulty of my classes evenly so that I balanced out difficult classes for my major with easier general ed requirements (I majored in chemistry). At least where I went there wasn’t much extra fee for taking the additional classes, and it was much, much less than an extra additional couple semesters. I also managed to work part time in addition to that, but I admit I had very little free time and didn’t get to do a lot of socializing like a lot of my class mates. But depending on how much motivation your son has to get done on time or early and if he would be able to handle the extra course load it does help a lot.