Today Rob got together with one of his female friends for a few hours at the park. When I arrived to pick him up, her dad hadn’t arrived yet, so I suggested Rob and I wait with her until he did. When he’d arrived, and Rob and I were on our way home, I mentioned that in general it is a good idea not to leave a woman stranded on her own. Rob scoffed and said, “You mean, to leave ANYONE stranded.” Well…sort of. But not really, actually.
One of the problems with bringing up children to believe that men and women are equal and that sex-based discrimination is wrong, is they can grow up thinking there are no differences between men and women, and that treating people differently based on sex is ALWAYS wrong. Also, it is hard to tell a child that a group they belong to by birth is known for being awful in a certain way. Also, I’ve been trying to explain to the kids that there are certain behaviors that are wrong not so much because those actual behaviors are wrong, but because those behaviors can symbolize certain things that WERE wrong that happened earlier, and that people need to be sensitive to that kind of history; but the parts of Rob’s brain that need to develop before he can understand that level of thinking are not yet developed, apparently. Or else he is never going to achieve that level of thinking, and I don’t think I want to turn my mind to that at this point.
In the meantime, I think what he needs is an educational supplement. I can tell him that in the United States, it hasn’t even been 100 years since women got the right to vote—but that amount of time has very little meaning to him. It only had meaning to ME in recent years, and I AM A WOMAN. Less than 100 years, can you even believe it? One hundred years ago, women could not vote. Because they weren’t men. Men could vote, but women couldn’t. When my grandparents were born, women couldn’t vote. That’s such a shocking concept now (THE ABILITY TO VOTE IS LOCATED IN THE PENIS), and aren’t we lucky that it is? And doesn’t it make us feel a little violent in our hearts? Yes. Completely understandable. It’s probably hysteria, a condition which can be treated by having a man remove some of your female parts for you.
I don’t think showing Rob a filmstrip about sexism is going to help. I don’t think it will help to find him a book on feminism. I don’t think it will help to lecture him. Here is what he appears to be thinking: “We have to treat women as if they’re special, because a long time ago, men-who-were-not-me treated women badly. THIS IS SO UNFAIR. Women are EQUAL now. WHY DO I HAVE TO PAY FOR THE PAST??” He also appears to be thinking something like: “Women and men are EQUAL! So why do I have to treat them DIFFERENTLY?” (Keep in mind, this is me putting words in Rob’s mouth in order to summarize the way it SEEMS to me he is feeling/thinking. He is not actually saying these things. Also, keep in mind that teenagers can be contrary, and Rob is of that sort of teenager: he may be arguing against what he actually believes, just in order to argue with me. He might be totally clear on all of this. I remember riling my own parents in similar ways.)
Here is what I want him to understand: Women are treated badly, even now, even by men like him, and also by men not like him. Women are more vulnerable to attack. SOME women are physically stronger than men, but in general, men are physically stronger—and some of them take advantage of that. Women are much more often victims of domestic violence, even though men can also be victims of it. What is the rate of sexual abuse now, 1 in 5 women? And that’s considered a very low estimate, because of how many women don’t report it. In war situations, or any situation where power is involved, the number of women raped by men is so vast compared to the number of men raped by either men or women, or to the number of women raped by women, it’s hard to even put those numbers on the same page. Men do continue to mistreat women, even though of course it is also possible to think of examples where women mistreat men. Men overall have greater physical strength and greater cultural power, even now when we say they shouldn’t. Men make more money for the same work, even now that we’ve noticed it and complained about it and made it really clear it shouldn’t be that way. If Rob leaves his female friend alone at the park, she ACTUALLY IS in more danger than a male friend would be. And if Rob grows up to be a man who doesn’t understand these things, I will still love him but a part of me is going to hate him, so let’s see if we can fix this. How do we bring up boys to understand the situation as it is, while also teaching them the situation as it should be?
As I said, I don’t think educational education (documentaries, statistics, history) is the direction I want to go with this, though I’m not abandoning that idea entirely. But telling him statistics doesn’t seem to have much effect. Talking about 1920 doesn’t seem to have much effect. And I remember as a teenager resisting anything that was Deliberately Trying to Teach Me Something. Here is what I want: Movies and/or TV shows and/or books that are completely popular and fun and mainstream and non-educational and non-agenda—and yet will bring him on his own to the horrified realization that I am right. Movies that show realistically how women are still treated, without making it seem like Yesterday’s Problem. And maybe not making it seem as if only Evil Movie Villains do it.
We can come up with some of those, I think, if we work on it together. A documentary about Genevieve Clark is not going to do it, but I’m sure if we put our minds to it we can we think of movies and shows and books that made us understand with a horrified chill how much power men still have over women, how awful men can be to women, what an imbalance there still is, how much still needs to be done, how much may never be done. We don’t need to show that ALL men are terrible to ALL women, because they’re NOT. We don’t need to show that ALL men are responsible for ALL bad things that men do, because they’re NOT. We don’t need to show that women never do anything bad, because GOODNESS KNOWS that’s not the case either. But I would like to firmly demonstrate these concepts to Rob: “Just because YOU are not doing these things to women doesn’t mean these things aren’t happening to women. Just because things should be equal doesn’t mean they’re equal yet. Just because things SHOULDN’T happen doesn’t mean they DON’T happen. Just because YOU PERSONALLY don’t see things happening before your very eyes, doesn’t mean they’re not happening. And, at this point, leaving your female friend alone at the park is different than leaving your male friend alone at the park.”
Maybe we can ask the guys in our life, the ones who DO realize. WHEN did they realize? HOW did they realize? What made it clear to them? It’s a human thing to listen more closely to people you identify with: maybe Rob would hear it better from Men than he would hear it from me, much as that might make me want to uproot a skyscraper or something. I have also vigorously discussed this with Paul this evening, pointing out that he is supposed to help deal with this, and NOT in a “women are crazy and you have to tiptoe around certain subjects” kind of way.
I remembered there was an article that compared the situation to video games, and it pleased me very much that searching “video game analogy women men” gave me the very article as the VERY FIRST HIT. I’m also looking for that post that explained how different it is to be a woman: like, how a woman is always calculating her risk of being raped/attacked, in situations where a man wouldn’t be worrying. [Edited: I’m pretty sure this one Mary mentioned is the one I was thinking of: A Gentleman’s Guide to Rape Culture.] [Edited again: Ah! No, THIS one Brigid mentioned is the one I was thinking of!: Schrödinger’s Rapist: A Guy’s Guide to Approaching Strange Women Without Being Maced.]
Also, I’m useless for current movie suggestions. I’m old enough that I’d be suggesting Dirty Dancing, G.I. Jane, and Erin Brokavich. Looking forward to your readers’ suggestions!
I’m not sure if this is exact what you’re looking for as it’s 1) written from an adult point of view and referring to some issues Rob probably doesn’t have personal experience with, and 2) written from a British perspective but Robert Webb wrote an article about men’s lost advantages and how there’s still a way to go before equality. Here: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/robert-webb-roll-roll-see-man-talking-about-feminism-what-could-possibly-go-wrong
I don’t know about movies/pop culture (though you might check out Bitch Magazine. They critique popular culture), but I do have a link addressing how different it is to be a woman:
Comparing being female to being a bicyclist:
https://medium.com/@nkkl/ride-like-a-girl-1d5524e25d3a
I liked these blog posts a lot that addressed that issue recently. I particularly like the one about “weeding the garden”- I think it’s a good analogy that tackles the exact problem you are encountering with Rob. If we don’t actively root out those negative stereotypes and thoughts (women who dress a certain way deserve certain treatment, etc. etc.) , then they continue to creep in, even in the best intentioned people.
http://www.xojane.com/issues/feminism-men-practical-steps?utm_medium=facebook
https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gentlemens-guide-to-rape-culture-7fc86c50dc4c
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2013/07/weeding-the-garden/
This is going to come off as simple as I am tired and it’s been a long day, but aside from the “girls are inherently vulnerable to being in trouble” argument maybe to teach that it is polite and gracious to look after the people you are with.male,female or otherwise is the point, if he was at the park with a male friend, would you let him leave?
This was how Rob wanted to interpret the lesson, too, and I do think it’s a fine point of view for him to have. But I want him also to understand that women ARE in more danger and that it isn’t JUST politeness/graciousness at stake. That if he leaves a male friend at the park or even on a street corner at night, that friend is in very little danger; that if he does the same with a female friend, she is at a significant risk.
I agree with your overall take on this completely, but I have to disagree with one point – women and girls who are alone aren’t at significant risk of being assaulted, because the risk from strangers is very low. (The data behind the awful 1 in 5 statistic about being sexually assaulted shows that the vast majority of assaults are from people who you know.)
While the relative risk of being sexually assaulted is inarguably higher for women than it is for men, the absolute risk for both is still quite low. Statistics are only one piece of things when it comes to feeling safe, but since Rob is like I was (likely to grab on to definitions when they’ll help us shove the bigger question aside), the word “significant” struck me.
I’m putting my thoughts about the bigger question below, because this is a L O N G comment, otherwise!
Schrodinger’s Rapist: http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger’s-rapist-or-a-guy’s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
Also, on women in narratives — http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-article/2013/05/we-have-always-fought-challenging-the-women-cattle-and-slaves-narrative-by-kameron-hurley/
I would suggest the movie 10 things I hate about you.
Kevin says to explain that as a boy/man you (Rob) never/rarely have to worry about someone harming you but a girl does. A girl always has to consider where they are or who they are with. He said that protecting a girl is the same as being protective of a small child, elderly person, or an animal. And that while yes, women are equal in many ways, they are simply not equal in all ways. (strength/size/stamina/skills to defend)
I wondered if framing it from his perspective of when he was younger and kids weren’t so kind to him. Would he ever want to leave a girl open to that kind of experience or worse?
The first thing I thought was an Afternoon Special would be so helpful in this situation.
He also wondered if Rob was debating for the sake of debating. :) I was actually pleased that he considered the fact that no one should be left vulnerable because boys often are because they are boys.
eeeeee, I chafe at this: “He said that protecting a girl is the same as being protective of a small child, elderly person, or an animal. ”
I worry that the teaching in this lesson is that “women are as capable as a small child, elderly person, or animal” – a dangerous sentiment to perpetuate. I don’t know the right answer, but I hope there is one that can make the point without diminishing a class of people.
Yes, the link that MrsDragon left. Also, scroll through some of the recent #yesallwoman tweets for ideas. And I’m going to send a link to a good article (by a man) about street harassment. Good luck and thank you !
Let’s try this: http://www.minnpost.com/cityscape/2014/08/confronting-everyday-power-street-harassment-what-can-be-done
Not exactly what you’re looking for but I like that it was written by a man and hits the important points.
Maybe ask the YA author John Green if he knows of any books that cover the subject.
I don’t get what hashtagYesAllWomen is…can anyone explain? I mean, although I’m not a twitter user, I do understand hashtags, but I’ve scrolled through the posts and some tweets seem to be promoting feminism (for lack of a better way to phrase it) and others seem anti-feminist.
But maybe that was just a snapshot of the particular time I was looking..
It’s a response to the “not all men” argument against feminism. (e.g. “Not all men are rapists so women shouldn’t be afraid of us!”) Its purpose was to spread awareness that, while not every man is a rapist, all women are living in a dangerous world because of the men who are. It was basically a chance for women to share their experiences so people could realize just how many people have gotten raped or otherwise harmed because of sexism. There were some anti-feminists using the tag to argue their own points, but the tag was created for feminists.
Wow, this is a great post. I am going to go hunt down examples of what you’re looking for and maybe try to find some talking points type stuff about explaining sexism vs. prejudice (like ways of pointing out sexism embedded in language), though you seem both to have that covered and know anyway that it might not be what will move Rob.
Do you know about the Bechdel test? Google it if you don’t; it’s a really great tool for realizing how ubiquitous men’s perspectives are in film, and how rare it is to find complex roles for women outside of the rom-com/chick lit category. Then again, if he’s feeling particularly combative he could find ways to take down arguments around the Bechdel test.
If Rob has any tolerance for subtitles, I think Antonia’s Line is a great film and one that quite clearly shows how women can be raped by someone she knows. It’s set mostly in the 1950s-80s, though, so maybe not as contemporary as you’re going for. As far as I can remember it isn’t that graphic, though.
I also thought of Kids, the 90s movie. Have you seen it? VERY graphic, probably too graphic for Rob, especially in the context of his mother showing it to him, but it’s a stark and sobering film. Similarly stark and sobering and probably too graphic is Lilya 4-Ever (it also has subtitles).
Hmm…it’s hard to find a happy medium here. I’m going to keep thinking of films and/or books that might be good.
I wish you luck!
Ha, I left almost the same comment while you were posting! High five.
I agree about the Bechdel Test! I consider myself to be very “aware” of women’s rights issues, and I was still shocked when I realized how many movies don’t pass the test. It’s very eye-opening.
Er, I also wanted to add that I saw Kids as a teenager (I was 14 or 15) and I remember being totally shocked by it, but not scarred for life or anything. Actually, it brought the safe sex message vividly to life for me, really seared it into my brain in a way that I meet forgot and probably influenced my behavior for the better later, and that’s valuable. Anyway, if you haven’t seen it you should definitely pre-screen and draw your own judgments!
Edit: never forgot (instead of meet forgot)
I wonder if it would help at all (though this is a little bit educational, so weigh it in your mind) to introduce him to the concept of the Bechdel test? Then he could use it on his own. Make sure he knows it’s not about “if a movie/ TV show/ whatever doesn’t pass the Bechdel test, it’s horrible.” It’s just a way of looking at media.
I feel like the narrative of almost every single movie out there is either 1) women are more fragile and vulnerable than men, and need to be rescued and protected, or 2) women do the Emotional Heavy Lifting in every relationship they are in, or 3) women are there for young exciting interesting men to fall in love with, and then when they break up, that becomes part of the young exciting interesting men’s emotional growth and trajectory. Or all three. (Talk to me about Garden State sometime, and that’s a movie I LIKE.)
I’ll give it some thought and see if I can come up with some popular films that lean on this idea but are not super depressing. I wish you all the luck. This is a complicated and really really worthwhile parenting task. Don’t forget the main take-away of being a parent: THIS TOO SHALL PASS.
Yes! :-)
This website might be helpful. The comments explain the ratings of the movies.
http://bechdeltest.com/
Hi! I find a lot of teenager-friendly comics/graphics about feminism on Pinterest. I usually do a search for “feminism” on Pinterest, scroll through until something looks interesting, and then look at all the related pins on that pin’s page. Here is one that I found just now: http://m.imgur.com/gallery/v26AIQL
Sleeping With the Enemy is the only movie I can come up with. Oh! And Enough. But I don’t know if those are appropriate for a teenager. I’ll be interested to see more current examples people come up with.
The only movie I could think of was “Enough,” and it did seem a bit strong for the kind of teaching you’re going for. In the same vein, there was that french short film that was making the rounds a few months ago, trying to show men what it was like to be woman. It’s pretty graphic too, though. Found the link (just pasting the url because I am lazy): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UWxlVvT1A
This particular blog post is one reason why I am really scared to have a son, because I have no idea how to teach the things you’ve just outlined. I even have a hard time explaining it to my husband (who, although aware of all of this, still sometimes seems not to “get it” the way I wish he would). Of course, girls are more at risk, which is also scary. So.
I’m a white girl and I grew up in a community that was at least 75% white (minority was mainly Korean and Indian, and then black). It wasn’t until I was well into my 20’s that I finally figured out that just because I wanted racial equality to be a thing, didn’t mean it was. And though I was treating my black friends exactly like I treated my white friends, I was actually doing them a disservice by not acknowledging the racism they and their family were encountering. I thought that by being “colorblind” I was proving how not-racist I was, when really colorblindness is a form of racism. Acknowledging differences, and especially acknowledging privilege, is a HUGE part of combating racism/sexism. It is the very first step.
I bring this up because I hope that one day Rob is able to acknowledge that being born male automatically puts him in a place of privilege, and it’s his responsibility as a good man to help and protect the underprivileged — in this case, women. And it can be as simple as staying with a female friend until her ride arrives, and in the future by not slut-shaming, and by not using phrases that undermine women such as “you throw like a girl” or using girl-words as swears (C-word, B-word, P-word). You can find good suggestions online for how men can be strong feminist voices without compromising their masculinity — and though of course that thought in itself is problematic, it does help us gain men as allies! Baby steps.
When I was a teenager I sometimes riled up my parents by purposefully not “getting it”, but when it came to racism I would have sworn up and down that only EQUAL was equal, just like Rob is saying. I believed it because I didn’t know any better. I wish I could say that I realized my mistake right away, but it took a long time — until I dated a sociology graduate whose focus had been in race relations, and I found a community of people online who reinforced what he was telling me. I’m interested to see what media is suggested in the comments here, but I suspect this may be something that will need to be quietly reinforced over a number of years before it sinks in.
Sorry for the essay. Privilege is a hot topic for me.
Great comment.
I think it would be helpful to mention to Rob the difference between legal equality (i.e. the law says women are to be treated the same as men and can vote etc.) and the way things actually are in society (i.e. rape, still looking forward to equal pay for equal work etc.) Things might technically be equal but they don’t play out that way. Maybe challenge him to try and identify it in his daily life and report back?
Amen to Monica and Katie! My first thought was how similar “his” argument is to the one a lot of people use to deny racism/white privilege: *I* (or my ancestors) never owned any slaves so how can *I* be racist or held responsible for the oppression of people of color?
When my kids were really little we tried to be colorblind like Monica said – minimize differences, everyone is equal and deserves equal treatment – which is true but simplistic. Now that they are a little older, we need to take a more active stance and work on teaching theory vs reality, white/male/class privilege, legal equality vs real opportunity, etc.
Great post and great comments – its very thought provoking!
That video game link you posted is sincerely the best thing ever, so thank you. Also, there was recently a video going around about what it is like to be a woman walking on the street and being cat-called. I’ll see if I can find it.
I’d be really interested in finding out what the video game is!
Was this the “how different it is to be a woman” article you’re thinking about?
https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gentlemens-guide-to-rape-culture-7fc86c50dc4c
I love how your mind works, Swistle! I’m pretty sure you have nothing to worry about. Rob is a lucky kid. :)
I saw this on Facebook yesterday. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5671532?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063
It’s a comic, so might be more appealing, although it is pretty straightforward “message-y”, so not sure. Also, Laci Green is a young, hip feminist who does YouTube videos about this stuff; might be worth looking at some and seeing what she has. And a 2nd to looking at some of the #yesallwomen twitter stuff. Even just searching it with him and talking about what you see might help.
These might be a bit too full of graphic language, but they’re pretty great:
http://www.tickld.com/x/next-time-someone-says-women-arent-victims-of-harassment-show-them
Also, have you seen the recent ad where women and girls are asked to “run like a girl” or whatever, and they do the stereotypical thing, and then they are asked what that means really, and at the end they do thing over again, and they do it for real.
Anyway, I thought it was good.
It is an ad for Always, but it is pretty good. I’d be curious about all your kids, Swistle, and whether they already associate “Throw like a girl,” or “Run like a girl” with negative connotations. At least the youngest three might not yet, or maybe just Henry.
Meant to include the link!
I also love the Bechdel Test.
And I was reminded of the quote that goes something like, “Men are afraid women will reject them, while women are afraid men will kill (rape?) them.”
If you’re looking for great TV that addresses awesome girls still not being equal in the power/strength department, I highly recommend Veronica Mars. It’s on Amazon Prime, positively reeks girl power, and yet she still carries pepper spray or keeps her dog with her. She gets away with lots of things in the process of solving crimes only because she’s a girl and people think she’s harmless/naive/stupid as a blond girl. It also deals with roofie raping on a personal level and it might be good to point out to him that he will probably never have to deal with or be afraid of waking up in that condition.
I also like the show Parenthood, though he might not like it til he’s older, because it shows real women in real couples, not some stereotyped helpless female or some inhumanly awesome/strong/male-in-a-female-body star.
Ooh, also check out the concept of gender swapping in comic books. The objectification of female bodies is breathtaking when you see the re-drawn images with the standard gender poses reversed. It’s also sometimes hilarious because male characters look so ridiculous in those inhuman (and yet, SO normal for female characters) poses.
Does he have twitter? Did he pay attention to the #yesallwomen thing recently?
Also, you might just try sharing anecdotes. My mom told me that when she was in her 20s (so, the 1970s, I think), she had a friend that got pregnant while working. The boss, upon hearing of the pregnancy, told her that he would pay for an abortion or she could quit. Generous, right?
More recently, my husband’s mom and dad have been designing a new location for the family business. The guys drew up some building options, and really liked one design where the entrance to the store was on the back side, not facing the street. They didn’t think a thing of it, but when we saw it, my MIL and I both immediatly thought, “No way! Women will NOT feel safe with that!”
It never even crossed the minds of the men.
I was also going to recommend Veronica Mars! It deals repeatedly with pretty heavy topics, particularly around rape, drinking, and also, the whole first season about her friend Lily’s murder, but the fact that Veronica is super sharp and tech-savvy (and her most geeky consultant is Mac, a girl!) makes me think it could definitely suck Rob in.
Jessica Williams did a killer job on John Stewart recently helping highlight the differences between men and women drinking in college: http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/z2b627/the-fault-in-our-schools
Veronica Mars is a *great* suggestion. It gets at the rape angles without flinching, but since it was done for broadcast TV, it’s not as stark as some other things.
Men are afraid that women will *laugh* at them, women are afraid that men will kill them. I believe it’s Margaret Atwood.
Perhaps the book “Speak” by Laurie Halse Anderson? It’s been a long time since I’ve read it so I don’t remember specifics, but the main character is a female rape victim. (Or maybe it was some other kind of sexual assault? Can’t remember.) The book’s target audience is teenagers around Rob’s age, so if he enjoys reading for fun you might want to suggest it to him. I’m not sure if it really addresses rape as a female vs. male issue, but it does focus heavily on the after-effects of rape and the toll it can take on people.
Unfortunately, there aren’t very many fun, popular, pop-culture-y books or movies or TV shows that really address the dangers of being a woman in today’s society…and that’s part of the problem! I;m with the other commenters who suggested teaching him about the Bechdel Test. At least it might help him understand WHY he hasn’t heard much about these kind of issues.
Not sure if this helps or is too violent, but in the zombie movie 28 Days Later, there’s a tough chick (who rescues the male protagonist), who later finds herself (and a teen girl) in a situation where sexual assault is imminent. Maybe a bit heavy handed, but it has the girls-are-equal bit (she’s tough as nails!) while simultaneously showing how vulnerable women are.
Might be a bit too much at his Ge but I was thinking of The Accused starring Jodie Foster.
I have saved this for when my son is older:
http://askmoxie.org/2013/03/a-letter-to-my-sons-about-stopping-rape.html
Not sure if this is age appropriate, but I came across it recently and found it good enough to bookmark:
http://m.tickld.com/x/next-time-someone-says-women-arent-victims-of-harassment-show-them
My first thought for movies was North Country, with Charlize Theron. It’s based on a true story.
Does Rob enjoy the Daily Show? Jon Stewart tackled the issue not that long ago. The segment is called “The Fault in Our Schools.” It talks about it from a college campus perspective but it still might be useful. I’m putthing the buzzfeed link because there are some gifs of the really important points:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/the-daily-show-takes-on-the-double-standards-in-combating-co
Here is a Maureen Johnson tumblr post about the prevalence of sexual assault in society.
http://maureenjohnsonbooks.tumblr.com/post/79687199694/about-the-recent-events-concerning-youtube
An analogy that I uses with some of my high school boys that I found on the internet is the skittles analogy. This was primarily to combat the notion of “Not all men are like that. I’m not like that.” Let’s say 10% of skittles are poisoned. That’s a vast minority of problematic skittles, but you would probably think of eating skittles a little differently. To women, 10% of men might actually be dangerous predators. I would also try to contextualize the situation in terms of Elizabeth. As sucky and unpleasant as that might be for you, it might mean more to him to think about his little sister rather than a vague notion of “women.”
Hope this helps. Thanks for doing this. As a teacher who has had this conversation with a ridiculously high number of male students, I really wish more parents would concern themselves with addressing this.
If you’re comfortable exposing him to some not-PG language, I’d suggest looking for some kind of website where women document street harassment. That seems likes it would be the least abstract and the most current/relevant for a teenager. A woman can be as tough as she wants, but she’s still likely to get men shouting rude things at her if she stands alone at a bus stop in some places, which she won’t get if Rob stands next to her….and wouldn’t it be nice of him to give her that option?
Also an analogy that I think might be helpful is that being female anywhere is kind of like being male with $200 sticking out of your back pocket. You have something that criminals would want to take from you, and it completely alters how safe you feel in certain situations.
I had conversations like this with my guy friends in college. Our campus was pretty safe- I would walk alone across it at night and feel safe. But, as a woman, I was always alert to who was walking behind me, glancing all around as I walked- as you do at night. Several of my guy friends agreed that they became very sensitive to not scaring women walking alone and would take a different route rather than come up behind a lone woman at night. As Rob gets older he will hopefully learn this lesson as well. My friends admitted they had never even thought about it before we had talked.
Not sure if this has been suggested, but one thing to show how things still AREN’T as equal as we’d like to believe is these implicit sexism/racism tests.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/uk/takeatest.html
http://www.understandingprejudice.org/iat/
It uses associations and measures how quickly you reply, and it is VERY hard not to end up associating “women/family” “men/work” etc more quickly than the reverse, no matter how hard you consciously try.
There are some great ideas here! I know a lot of college students who have a really hard time grappling with the “if I’m not sexist, why do I have to take sexism into account” question, so I sympathize! For those who have a strongly developed sense of Fairness, it can be particularly hard. Having Paul initiate some of the discussions about this will be a BIG help. Since he doesn’t “have to” care, he can be seen as more objective.
My resources are generally for an older audience, but here are two approaches I’ve found helpful. First, current events can help avoid Now We Will Learn A Lesson eye-rolling, since they can be a part of normal conversation more easily. However, they often involve delving into more violent details in the news than your family may normally talk about. (The politicians who say that there’s no such thing as marital rape and the judges, reporters and others who talk more about how rape victims were dressed than about the rapists. (There are a *lot* of compelling cases around this that involve kids, but since I know violence against kids is not something you want to read/talk about, I didn’t include those.)) For a less violent take, the studies about how women and men with the same resume are treated differently are quite good, but aren’t in the news all that often, sadly.
And though these should be very separate from the serious conversations about sexual assault, there are some good humorous takes on how men and women are still treated very differently in advertising and other visual media. The Hawykeye Initiative has a lot of comic-book themed ones, but there are a lot of others out there, too. (Note: because these are talking about the ways in which women are over-sexualized, there’s a lot more skin than you might normally be looking at with your own teenagers. But these are all regular catalog/magazine/comic book images – part of the point is that we don’t “see” female nudity in ads because it’s so expected.)
Good luck! I can’t imagine how hard these conversations are when it’s your own kid. They’re hard enough under the most favorable of circumstances, so bringing in love, boundary-pushing and the like would be daunting.
There are some great suggestions here! I’ve found the links about opening men’s eyes to street harassment to be very helpful, as I am married to a lovely man who would never do those things and thus was a little hesitant to understand exactly how pervasive harassment / inequality / danger for women can be.
This is a very different suggestion, but when I was in highschool I read The Handmaid’s Tale by Margaret Atwood and that basically converted me to a feminist on the spot. You’ve probably read it too, but if not: it’s a novel about a dystopian not-too-distant future where women are relegated solely to the roles they are allowed to fulfill to supplement a man-focused society. It was shocking for me because it was a REALLY easy leap to see how close we as a society were to doing so already. (I was not a very perceptive or aware kid, btw.) I would be curious to hear if it had the same effect on any young men reading it though.
This is the book I wanted to suggest, too. Swistle, not sure how effective it will be for Rob, because a) it is LITERATURE, yuck (okay, I don’t know if he has strong negative feelings about literature, I am just mimicking myself at that age) and b) it is not about modern-day U.S.A. But it’s a book I’ve read several times, and has stuck with me as being so emblematic of the mindset that women are property of men. (The main character’s name is, I believe, Offred, or “Of Fred,” or “Fred’s property” because women don’t have identities outside their service to men.)
One thing I forgot to mention last night is that sexism affects men, too. Not in an “oh noes, what about the menz” kind of way, but in some serious ways that diminish them as human beings and limit their choices. (Like you can’t have a close friendship without calling it a bromance or saying “no homo”? You have to trick or manipulate someone into having sex with you? Sad.) One way to get male allies is to point out that feminism isn’t a zero sum game where, when women get power, men lose power and life sucks. Feminism liberates everyone.
I’m liking all these suggestions and will be using some for my own boys. My husband, who is a gentleman & a good man has certain blind spots when it comes to ‘women’s victimization’. He’s fairly convinced it’s exaggerated and many rapes are the result of ‘women changing their mind afterward due to embarrassment’ and just doesn’t see that a woman alone on the street might be afraid of him or any male that approached her. He’s a good guy, he wants to help but now he has to worry about her reaction to it. He read some article or other about date rape on campus and sort of went off about some part of it that struck him wrong and I just stared at him and the more he went off I guess the worse the expression on my face got because he finally said “So you think I am wrong?” and I asked him when the last time was I ever drove more than 10 miles after dark alone, when was the last time I waited for him alone someplace after dark, when I got drunk, and what about that time I drove home on gas fumes because it was dark and the only gas station around that was open had a guy just hanging out by the door. I’m not afraid in general, but I have to pay A LOT more attention to my surroundings than he does. Maybe that guy coming to help me really is a good guy and maybe he is not and for my own personal safety I have to err on the side of he is not. He doesn’t have to live like that, it’s not part of his internal dialogue, he doesn’t really understand how vulnerable women can feel and he fails to get it sometimes. So he can’t really teach the boys it and it’s up to me to get through to all 3 of them.
Yes, be decent to everyone but understand not everyone is and women bear the brunt of that so make a bit more of an effort to make them feel safe.
It’s cheesy, but the Amanda Bynes film She’s The Man might be an interesting way to show how the same person is treated differently when people think she’d s a boy vs when they think she’s a girl. Legally Blond too (“You got into Harvard?” “What like it’s hard?”).
Mona Lisa Smile does show the post WWII era life at a women’s college, but the issues it brings up are wonderful. Like teachers being expected to give a pass to newlywed female students so they can set up house. And how really intelligent women where just expected to go to college for their MRS and not actually do anything with their education.
My husband who has three daughters and has been with me since we were 17, can be clueless at times. We were in San Francisco one night, walking home in a not great area. Somewhere along the line, a younger woman started walking right behind us. My husband asked me WHY she was following us. I turned, made eye contact with her, and then told my husband “because we’re safe. We’re a mid 30’s couple- a guy and a girl- walking together. She’s safer just by being close to us.” The woman smiled at me and nodded. We got it, he didn’t.
UU churches with OWL programs! I know you guys aren’t religious but neither are half the people at UU churches and they often do a good job discussing rape culture.
Seconding! I don’t know much about OWL (Our Whole Lives) personally but I can tell you the instructors undergo extensive training, and parents just rave about it. More here: http://www.uua.org/re/owl/
This article is a “how to” guide for white people talking to black friends about racism, but many of the points could be used for men/sexism as well. http://secondcitynetwork.com/discussing-race-racism-black-friends-dos-donts/
I should mention it’s written by a comedian to give it some context. Otherwise some parts could be off-putting, if you don’t realize it’s meant to be a joke.
Anecdotes from my mom’s life really crystallized some of this stuff for me. I don’t know if hearing about issues from her made them more real or just more interesting. Maybe that might be a good place to start?
Others have mentioned the first season of Veronica Mars, although, [SPOILER]. But it does do a great job of illustrating how girls can be both strong AND the victims of violence – and shows the shaming that can occur after an assault and how little power women can have when trying to get the authorities to take it seriously. The novel Speak (which was also turned into a movie starring Kristin Stewart), is also good re: acquaintance rape, and isn’t particularly graphic if I recall.
I found this article from sci-fi author John Scalzi to be useful in explaining white male privilege, although its pretty simplistic: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/. And this one from David Wong at Cracked: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html. It might be too adult for a teenager – it has a lot of colorful language and frank mentions of sex, and kind of devolves toward the end – but the first point about men being taught that they are owed a beautiful woman is really insightful, I thought.
Also, while it’s difficult to come up with examples of TV and books that specifically deal with these issues as a matter of plot, once you start really thinking about it, it’s easy to see in almost anything you watch or read – others have mentioned the Bechdel test. Just asking questions about the characters helps – how many women are there compared to men, what are the women “allowed” to do – are they the actors and protagonists, or window dressing, or somewhere in between, do they make their own choices or does someone choose for them, etc.
Hi! Just to point out that it absolutely WAS rape in Veronica Mars, because she didn’t (couldn’t) give consent. MOST rapes are committed, sadly, by someone the woman knows and thought was safe up until the moment they weren’t. “You are my boyfriend” is not consent. Silence or being asleep is not consent. “Yes oh yes I totally want to do this” is. Just wanted to clarify!
Yup–regardless of whether V *felt* she had been raped, she could not legally give consent, period. They kind of retconned and screwed with that storyline in S2….I would definitely watch S1 with him. S3, their rape story lines are a little screwy, for one thing there is a fall accusation which I hate because in real life that basically never happens.
I honestly didn’t remember that from season 2. Thanks for the reminder. I do remember this, from season 1:
“[spoiler].”
My point is that in looking for good lessons about rape, consent, etc., a season of a show in which the girl finds out [spoiler] is going to send a confusing message. You can certainly watch the show with a teenage boy and explain how, actually, a girl can’t consent in those circumstances, but the show doesn’t go there. That’s why I called it a cop out. It takes one of the central and most disturbing themes of the show, and blunts its impact by making it seem like [spoiler].
http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-14/movie-its-men-who-are-constantly-harassed-dominant-women
I think the situation in the park is a good one to highlight ‘male privilege’. The idea that, sure, you wouldn’t strand anyone alone, perhaps, but this is why you need to be more aware when a woman is involved. Because she IS more vulnerable to 1) harassment or 2) assault.
I guess what I’d try doing with my teenagers (really, I’m on the cusp of this myself) is to keep the conversation focused. I’d address the right approach in this one situation and not get too side tracked in dealing with All Sexism and All Male Privilege. And then I’d email links and slowly back away from the computer so he can read them, or not, and talk to me, or not.
But the above link is good because you see 1) role reversal, which highlights the issues more and 2) you see escalation of the sexism all the way up to the man in the video being attacked. My one criticism with the plot is that the man is attacked by strangers when most women are assaulted by someone she knows. But I thought it was very powerful and dramatic and helpful.
Wow! Love this post and can’t wait to dive into all these links in the comments. I have two toddler boys and another boy on the way and all of this is frequently on my mind. This is exactly what I want them to understand: “Just because YOU are not doing these things to women doesn’t mean these things aren’t happening to women. Just because things should be equal doesn’t mean they’re equal yet. Just because things SHOULDN’T happen doesn’t mean they DON’T happen. Just because YOU PERSONALLY don’t see things happening before your very eyes, doesn’t mean they’re not happening…”
Yes. Yes. Yes.
I saw this today and it made me think about your post – I saw this today and it made me think about your post – http://www.groundswell-mvmt.org/faithshare/listen-up-jay-z-this-muslim-womans-got-something-to-say-to-you/
Sorry I’m late to the party — but the first thing I thought of was the movie “Thirteen” with Evan Rachel Wood and Nikki Reed.
Then there is “Trust” (2010) with Clive Owen and “Precious” (2009).
Having reflected on my own awareness/lack thereof of these complex matters when I was a teen, I think it’s true that to some degree many high schoolers are not fully able to grasp these issues. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t introduce the material, in the hope that over time their brains will mature enough that it will sink in. I think my own approach was one of general denial, but there was also a lack of exposure — my school did not discuss gender, race, or other social issues, and it wasn’t something we got into much at home.
I went off to college with the general (stupid, immature) attitude that men and women were the same, so what was everyone blathering on about? By the end of freshman year, I was starting to get it, and by the end of college I REALLY got it, enough to care a lot about all kinds of social problems and feel outraged at injustice and inequality. Perhaps I would have arrived at a reasonable awareness level much earlier if someone had tried to introduce it to me, as you’re proposing to do with Rob, so I really applaud this whole thing on your part. I do think the teenage contrariness will play a role, so you might feel like you’re beating your head against a wall in the short-term, but in the long-term it will be worth it.
All that said, I can’t think of much to recommend. The Katie Roiphe book from back in the 1990s seems both dated and probably not right for Rob’s age and stage, though it was one thing that I do remember vaulting me many steps ahead in my own understanding of the potential dangers and pitfalls of being female. The Tom Wolfe novel “I am Charlotte Simmons” also comes to mind, but it is also fairly racy so you might want to pre-read it — also it and a lot of other pop culture offerings could be written off by a teen as just a story about individual jerks and not as examples of pervasive social problems (I thought of “Sleeping with the Enemy” but again see it as something a teen would see and be like, well that guy is just a PSYCHO, but MOST MEN aren’t). I feel like there needs to be a Judy Blume book about this stuff.
I’m curious what Paul’s input has been as well!
Another really hard-to-watch but excellent movie is _The Accused_ (Jodie Foster). It’s kind of an old film, but super powerful. And in the same vein, _North Country_.
Just wanted to say that I love your thoughtfulness on this and literally every topic, Swistle, and also I love the commenters’ great suggestions! Give Rob a lot of women’s perspectives on this, and also men’s, because as lousy as it is, sometimes it helps for people to hear these concerns from people who are more “like them.”
I’ve seen this making the rounds on Facebook lately. It was posted by a guy friend who stated that he hoped that all his guy friends read it “because it’s worth the reminder of the ways in which society places us males in a position of power without us even asking for it, and of how the subtle differences in the things that we say and do can either entrench or rebalance that.”
http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/
Love the post and all the comments! I teach an introductory-level college sociology class, and even with 18-21 year-olds, I still deal with a lot of the “I’m not racist/sexist/homophobic, so this clearly can’t be a problem with society. That’s all in the past.” attitude.
Some of my favorite resources are the “Taking Sides” series of books. They aren’t popular culture, and they are textbooks. Maybe a library might have them? They look at various controversial issues and have strong, well-reasoned arguments on both sides. Several of them would have gender issues, and I’ve found that it’s really helpful for them to actually have to think about both sides of an issue.
The New York Times does something like this regularly in their “Room for Debate” series, and they just had one series about rape on campus. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/08/12/doing-enough-to-prevent-rape-on-campus
Hi Swistle, I really loved this thoughtful post, and the comment thread is one of the best I’ve ever seen. You seriously have the best readers! I heard a really interesting story on NPR this morning about research on high school and college rapists and a program that was started to stop them. This wasn’t what you asked for, but maybe it will be interesting to you: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/08/18/339593542/the-power-of-the-peer-group-in-preventing-campus-rape
And this website has a ton of resources that might be helpful:
http://www.amightygirl.com
Will you let us know what you try? I’ve bookmarked so many things here to help me engage in these discussions when my son gets older.
Good luck!
Earlier this year, Jezebel had an article about rape jokes done well (run in response to a popular comic’s not funny and offensive joke) that included YouTube clips. One young male comic tells a story about running for a train that might be a ah-ha moment for Rob.
It’s John Mulaney – from his tour “The Top Part”: it’s only one part of a show that is a.) pretty PG? and b.) covers a lot of unrelated topics, so it might not seem preachy.
Lots of good stuff here.
Swistle, a lot of these are maybe, erm, too old for Rob, but you might find them interesting anyway and you might find that you want to give him just a few excerpts.
http://www.cracked.com/forums/topic/178452/photoplasty-1-8.19.14-if-pop-culture-treated-men-way-it-treats-women
Some really great examples of how ridiculously male-biased our media is. I know that doesn’t address things like leaving a girl in a park vs leaving a boy in a park, but it might help him begin to assess TV, comics, movies etc. It might help him begin to understand some of the things that are background noise to a woman; that our bodies are commodities, that we’re useful for sex and then only till age 30 or 35 (or 25, in some movies!), that women are background characters or “the girlfriend” at best in many shows, and so on and so forth.
I’m not sure if this will speak to Rob, but this very much speaks to me.
http://iasshole.org/?p=1687
It’s a bit dated now, and definitely a little cheesy, but growing up I found that there were a number of episodes of Dawson’s Creek that highlighted the big difference between women’s safety and men’s – particularly in the college years seasons.
The other show I imagine you’d find some good material from is Degrassi High – it’s a Canadian production but I’m sure you’d be able to find it online.
Cheers!
This isn’t about rape and safety, but it does go to the different treatment of the sexes: http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com . It illustrates well known male super heroes as if they were female super heroes. The results speak for themselves: Hawkeye wouldn’t be caught dead with a rib cage that small or his ass sticking out like that. So why are the female super heroes depicted like that? (rhetorical question!)
I read the webcomic Dumbing of Age for pleasure because it is funny and has lots of jokes about dinosaurs and eating only cereal – but it covers a lot of issues about rape, PTSD, sexism, secular versus religious upbringing, substance abuse, and racism.
It doesn’t sound fun, but it is!
If you read some and think they’d appeal, maybe you could buy one of the books as a gift, and then he might read more of it online?
Jessica Williams on the Daily Show has a few good pieces on rape culture; she and a male corespondent cover different safety requirements for men and women at parties in a fairly amusing way.
Louis CK does a thing – a possibly not appropriate thing – about how, since men are the number one cause of death for women, dating a man is like dating a half-bear half-lion.
Cracked.com has a new-ish feminist bent where they talk about stereotypes in media and unreasonable expectations for dating and rape culture in between articles about the most badass soldiers ever and terrifying animals from Australia and, apparently, solid journalism about living in autocratic regimes. It’s a lot of fun to read, even if it’s in listicle form.
As a 15 year old girl I really think it’s good for him to acknowledge that women are generally at a disadvantage. I’d be lying if I said I’ve never been afraid walking alone at night. I’m really grateful when a friend offers to walk with me. I completely understand his reasoning, not wanting to seem sexist. But I’ve been harassed on the sidewalk by creepy middle-aged walking home from school because of my appearance. I’m FIFTEEN. I live in a good neighborhood but it still makes me really uncomfortable to be vulnerable like that.
Not sure if the links below are along the lines of what you’re looking for, but it’s what came to mind when I read the post; here they are just in case:
“Oppressed Majority: the film about a world run by women. Eléonore Pourriat’s short film imagines how a man might experience a sexual assault in a matriarchal society.”
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/feb/11/oppressed-majority-film-women-eleonore-pourriat
also, a video turning the tables on everyday sexism. I love the one where she’s just staring at the guy smoking a cigarette.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/apr/04/everyday-sexism-turn-tables-women-men-video
“The Everyday Sexism Project exists to catalogue instances of sexism experienced by women on a day to day basis. They might be serious or minor, outrageously offensive or so niggling and normalised that you don’t even feel able to protest. Say as much or as little as you like, use your real name or a pseudonym – it’s up to you. By sharing your story you’re showing the world that sexism does exist, it is faced by women everyday and it is a valid problem to discuss.”
http://usa.everydaysexism.com
a photo shoot where a man poses for retakes of Miranda Kerr’s GQ photo shoot:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/06/bondi-hipsters-miranda-kerr-gq_n_5100543.html
After reading your post I came across this article today: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2729606/I-not-leave-Berlin-without-having-sex-Successful-Tech-investor-embarrassed-woman-sent-crude-email-networking-event.html
Notice in the article that until she found another woman that it happened to, “That eliminated the factor that I’d brought this on myself.’ We automatically wonder what WE did to bring it on :(
And to add…today when I was walking into work I was subjected to a male walking behind me making mumbly comments about my body. If I wasn’t late (waaaaay late for work) I would have dressed him down but how many other women have been intimidated by that?
Love this post and am enjoying the thought processes it is provoking. I wonder if it would help to think about how you will have these conversations with your daughter? Surely you will want her to also be mindful and protective towards her girl friends. How does the conversation change if you are talking with her instead of with your son?
As for books I can only think of the horribly impractical, but very interesting book Egalia’s Daughters http://www.amazon.com/Egalias-Daughters-A-Satire-Sexes/dp/1878067583 This book from the 70’s flips the gender roles of both sexes to show how much of our sexist thoughts/behavior is cultural. (ps. Based on the books you recommend I think you would like this one in a thought provoking way).
Of course, this might support Rob’s argument more than your own. And I do believe you have taken a less ideological and more practical assessment of the situation and the lessons at hand. Best of luck!
ALSO this is a fantastic post: https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2013/10/20/cockblocking-rapists-is-a-moral-obligation-or-how-to-stop-rape-right-now/
And there are links embedded within that have really fascinating stats about who commits rape and under what circumstances.
OMG this is so important.
I’m super late to this party, but Aziz Ansari’s (the comedian that plays Tom Haverford on Parks and Rec) latest comedy special (the one at MSG, it’s on Netflix) has an awesome series of jokes on this topic. Some of the language/content is a bit… strong, especially if you were going to watch with Rob, but I think it fits the bill of what you’re looking for. And, it’s funny!