Rob has been having trouble in science this year. This is what he says the problems are:
1. His teacher is demanding and wants them to give answers including details she hasn’t even asked for
2. His teacher is rigid and only wants things done a particular way, when there’s no objective reason for them to be done that way
3. His teacher is boring, and only wants the blandest possible science projects/experiments done, with no room for creativity or anything interesting
I’ve met his teacher and I’ve seen the several-page letter she sends home at the beginning of the year about her expectations, and this is what I’d say the problems are:
1. His teacher wants more than the absolute minimum
2. His teacher wants things done precisely and accurately and the way they must be done to qualify as science
3. His teacher wants SCIENCE projects, not computer games pretending to be science projects; also, Rob chose a project that didn’t interest him out of spite, and this has turned out to be a poor strategy
In other words, Rob and the teacher are butting heads and my sympathies are with the teacher. On the other hand, I also sympathize with Rob: these are some difficult lessons he needs to learn, and I’m a little anxious because I have that same “sink or swim” feeling I had when his grades crashed right after he entered the much-different middle school environment. He either needs to understand and incorporate these lessons, or he could severely impact the course of his life:
1. Sometimes a teacher (or boss) wants you to do work you don’t want to do, and you have to do it anyway or else suffer the consequences
2. Sometimes a teacher (or boss) wants you to do work you think is stupid or pointless, and you have to do it anyway or else suffer the consequences
3. Sometimes a teacher (or boss) wants things done a certain way, and you think they should be done a different way and you say so, and the teacher (or boss) disagrees with you and then you do have to do it their way
4. Sometimes a teacher’s teaching style is not your student style (or a boss’s bossing style is not your employee style), and sometimes you can do something about this (switch to a different class, switch to a different job) and sometimes you can’t; and if you can’t, you have to find a way to do the best you can under the circumstances
5. Trying to prove your point by making yourself fail only hurts YOU, not the teacher (or boss)
So. That is where things are. He’s frequently mad about this class, and I’m getting good practice finding the line between sympathy and disagreement: “I know that feeling, and I hate it too. I wonder if it would work to…”.
The big deal right now is a science project that makes up a significant portion of their grade. It must be done to certain science standards, and there are many rules for exactly how things must be done and exactly which steps must be included. Rob can say all he wants that it OUGHTN’T to be done that way, or that it’s stupid that generation after generation of students have to do something just because someone long ago decided it should be done that way—but regardless, it must be done that way or he will get a failing grade on the project.
I had a flash of extremely timely inspiration; we’ll wait to call it genius until we see if it works or not. After Rob and I had been going back and forth for awhile (a very good conversation, really, but with the kind of tension that felt to me like trying to keep jumpy livestock from stampeding) and I was advocating the “See if you can find out what your teacher wants and then do THAT” approach whereas he was advocating the “Shoot myself in the foot and blame the teacher for it” approach, I said, “Hey! This is kind of the REAL science project!”
So now we have two hypotheses and we’re doing some testing. (My hope is that we will test only mine.) He handed in an assignment recently on which he gave fuller answers than were asked for, which is a test of my hypothesis. Man, I hope the teacher responds the way I hope she will. My theory is that this will cut down significantly on the number of red-pen marks asking for clarification and the use of certain recently-taught concepts/terms. Rob thinks she will just ask for STILL MORE work: that she will always want more than what he produces and be unhappy with his answers, even if he were to answer each short-answer question will a full college-level essay. (I was tempted to email the teacher and tell her she was being experimented on so I could win, but that wouldn’t be real science.)
EMAIL THE TEACHER!! Prove yourself right!! (I found this post hilarious and I think it illustrates what great parents you and Paul are) (Or at least you, Paul could be bad mouthing the teacher and setting up threatening parent teacher conferences for all I know)
You have just given me a glimpse into the future (if 3rd grade is showing us anything…)!
I am sure that my high school science teacher husband would be grateful for your scientific approach! It’s awesome! My approach to the third grade science project was to give up and let her sink/swim and she swam! But man each kid sure needs a tailored approach and I’m already pretty sure everything I do with my daughter will be completely useless with my son. That’s my hypothesis anyway ;)
I wish my children would have had you as their mother. You are brilliant.
Hopefully, your approach will work. Comparing the teacher to a future boss is what we used to do all the time. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told Man-Child the same.
And? In my opinion, if the teacher is exacting and asking for more – then that is a good teacher. By the time mine reached high school his very favorite teacher was the one that expected the most.
EMAIL THE DAMN TEACHER
Any particular reason, or just the command a la carte?
This is really weird, because my son gives me every appearance of being in first grade and living in my home — indeed, all available evidence suggests he is charmingly fast asleep in MY bed RIGHT NOW. And yet, apparently, he has actually morphed into a middle-schooler named Rob who is YOUR son. This is very confusing.
Ah, science projects. So much to look forward to. In our household, tonight our issue was the simpler (and yet not) horror that (if you can believe this), he has to brush his teeth Every. Single. Night. (and morning, though I didn’t remind him of that). Horrible, I know.
i have a daily…Discussion with the about to turn 3 year old I nanny for. It goes like this:
Her: I don’t want to wipe.
Me: you HAVE TO WIPE.
Her (adopting whiny tone) I don’t WANT to wipe.
Me: OH MY GOD. you have to wipe. IT IS PART OF GOING POTTY.
When I was in middle school (so like, 10 years ago) they used to give out rubrics before the tests with examples of what an A answer would include, what a B answer would include etc.
I found it was helpful knowing exactly what the expectation was before I started.
Instead of emailing the teacher (if it reaches that point), could you have Rob talk to her himself? I don’t know what Rob’s personality is like so it could be a bit of a hurdle for him, but in my experience teachers really appreciate it when the students themselves take initiative like that. I went to a middle school where teacher/student communication was strongly encouraged, and that helped me more than anything in high school and college–since I wasn’t afraid to approach teachers and ask questions I rarely had any doubts about how assignments needed to be done. Even if Rob is right and his teacher is being UNFAIRLY HARD, at least you’ll both know for sure.
Another accurate (though nosy) way to conduct your experiment would be to find out somehow (maybe ask Rob?) if any other students are having this problem. If the majority of the class is having the same problems as Rob then it would appear as though the teacher is either expecting too much of the class or not being clear about what she wants. I had a teacher like this is high school–at least half the class had an F or a D and NO ONE had an A, not even the best student in the class. But if most of the other students seem to be doing fine then the teacher just has high (but achievable) expectations and Rob needs to work harder. If this is the case then maybe he could ask another student what kinds of answers they’ve been putting down–not to copy or cheat, but just to see an example of what an A paper looks like.
That was a bit of a novel, sorry! I think you’re handling this well–acknowledging that teachers and bosses can be difficult and unfair sometimes, but also teaching the lesson that that doesn’t excuse anyone from doing what’s expected and required.
I think you handled this VERY well, right down to exercising wonderful restraint in not emailing the teacher. As a former professor, married to a high school teacher, I can tell you that even the most well-intentioned, innocuously phrased, totally harmless email of this type almost never comes of as anything other than, “Hi. I would like my child to receive a better grade in your class. How do I make that happen.” Or the equally charming, “Could you make that happen.” (No question mark. Usually not phrased as a question).
However, those requests, investigational forays, overtures that originate from the student (unless completely obnoxious (see the above parentheses) are almost universally encouraged and will even probably garner mental brownie points or REAL effort grade points.
Please report back!
I can’t wait to hear the results of this experiment. Please don’t email the teacher, but do demand to see the actual paper that Rob brings home and compare it with a previous paper.
(we had a similar if less dramatic thing with one of my daughters who refused to give answers in complete sentences when that was what the teacher was asking for. Once she saw her scores improve, there was overall less whining about complete sentences!)
I am the mother of a high school student who has been complaining for year that homework is stupid and pointless,so I feel your pain. Mine is a smart kid who does well on tests, so usually has high scores on tests, then a B or C (or, dare I admit, worse!) because of the homework that he refuses to do. I nagged, cajoled, punished, etc. for years, and because of that, his grades were not too terrible. However, I started worrying (as we do!) about college. What’s the point of getting good enough grades to get into college, if he’s just going to flunk out? So, on the advice of a social worker we consulted, I tried to pull back and let him sink or swim. It’s been rough, and his grades are not where I would like to see them, but he actually has started talking to his teachers more independently. Many of them will forgive the missing homework when he can prove he gets the concepts on testing, but it is always the projects that really bring him down. He’s a junior now, and we went to visit colleges during spring break. I think he finally understands why I was nagging about grades, but he still struggles to force himself to do the homework. So, I guess I don’t really have any advice, but I wish I could have been reading about your struggles with Rob when my son was younger, as I think you are handling it very well!
This has been going on in my house for at least ten years. SO FRUSTRATING! And just when one kid starts to really get it and finally their grades start to come up, the next one starts in. Where did they ever get the idea that if something is stupid and/or boring they don’t have to do it? And that they get to decide? My husband and I are extremely hard workers and good employees. This has probably been the most frustrating thing I’ve had to deal with as a mom. (and I wouldn’t email the teacher. Learning to ask for help and clarification is a huge part of the process of figuring all this out for them).
We just went through something similar this week when my 9th grade daughter DID NOT WANT to do a specific project for school, put it off until the last night, and had to stay up until 3:30am to finish it. GAAAH! I’ve tried to give her valuable advice (ha!) about starting projects as soon as they’re assigned, making sure you’re halfway done by the the time you’re halfway to the due date, etc., but I think it must be similar to telling someone their boyfriend is a jerk – i.e. some things you just have to learn for yourself. It makes me feel terrible about my own poor parents, since I was also a procrastinator.
I’m a professor too, and so the situation is different (I rarely-to-never deal with parents, for one thing), but the above posters are correct that I take extremely kindly to student interaction with me. Questions, meetings, requests for help, even just chatting (preferably not accusations of rigidity and stupidity, though.) I do hand out prompts for every assignment I give, and for large assignments I give rubrics as well, showing in specific terms not “what the student should do” but what I expect the learning outcomes and the results to be. There are often multiple ways to get there — an A way, a B way, and so forth — and, at least in my discipline (in the humanities) more than one way to get an A, as well. Insofar as this is a college prep class in some way, these are things you and Rob might be thinking about.
I used to be that ‘demanding’ teacher who wouldn’t give out blueprints of what to expect, and I can tell you why I did that (and no, it was not because I was ‘bad at my job’ as a parent or two wanted me to think): because there will be plenty of moments in your life when you don’t know what the other person expects from you (a boss, a partner, a co-worker,…) and yet you have to (or want to) deliver. So I wanted to train them in a few things: 1) learn to figure out from circumstantial clues what ‘kind’ of thing is expected, 2) learn to ask for clarification of expectations, and 3) learn how to determine for yourself what is ‘ok’, what is ‘good’ and what is ‘not good enough’ even if you don’t really know the other person’s standards. (Of course I would give them enough information to be able to pass projects and tests even without this, but to get good grades they would have to seriously focus on the above 3 points (or at least the first 2).)
So I appreciate your approach on this… let’s hope his teacher does too!
So
Erm, for clarification, if you emailed the teacher it would have been to ask her to mark the latest paper in a way that generated data to support your hypothesis rather than Rob’s, right? Not to intercede on Rob’s behalf? Because that (first) is what I understood you to be saying but many other commenters seem to think the latter and now I’m confused!
Yes, your interpretation was correct!
Oh good, my understanding of Swistle, and the Universe, have been returned to balance!
I am riveted by your posts about dealing with a teenager. Rob sounds SO MUCH like my older brother as a teen. He gave my parents a lot of heartburn with his approach to school, which sounds similar to the way Rob is approaching it.
I LOVED this: “but with the kind of tension that felt to me like trying to keep jumpy livestock from stampeding.” Perfect.
Sometimes just having a student chat up a teacher and say: are there any tips you can give me for doing better in your class?
Is enough of an opener so they’ll do better with each other.
And you’re very correct about it being important to be able to do it exactly as someone requires (boss).
Late to this discussion, but here’s an idea. Have Rob prepare an analysis (scientific, you know). List each method the teacher wants him to take, and in another column list the way HE wants to do it. Then, discuss the importance of being neutral but reasoned (i.e., “I just want to do it another way” is not a reason) and prepare a list of strengths and limitations of each point (the teacher’s, and the way he wants to do it). [Or, his choice of topic versus hers, etc.] If he can support his points with reason, he could take his analysis to the teacher and respectfully present it for discussion. That would give her an opportunity to note any points he may have overlooked, and it would open up some communication between them. I expect she would appreciate his efforts. If he cannot support his points with reason, that alone might make YOUR point without an invisible wagging finger. This project would also help him understand that going against the system is sometimes valuable, sometimes not worth the effort, and his teacher wouldn’t just hear his disagreement as simple complaining.
I know it has been awhile, but i need an update on the results of this experiment. Not only because I am a scientist but because I just can’t help enjoying a good parent teaching moment. Here’s hoping it came out as an awesome life lesson
He hasn’t said anything to me about it, but (1) he has stopped complaining so much, and (2) his grade has improved. So! I think that tells us what we want to know!
Catching up since my work computer still blocks your blog. Just wanted to say I love you in the least creepy way possible. You are such a great parent!
I’m a middle school science teacher, and I love your moment of “THIS is the experiment!”. I have Robs in my classes too. If they will respectfully ask for an opportunity to do a modified project, I will usually go along with it IF it meets the learning objectives.
Whining & complaining don’t get much traction with me. I sometime tell them that if they put the energy into doing the work that they do into complaining about it, they would probably be almost done!
Hang in there! Glad to hear the grades are coming up! You sound like the kind of parent I wish all my students had