Would you be interested in discussing a minor ethical dilemma? My mom and I talked about it for awhile this weekend, and we couldn’t come to any solution that seemed Good and Right. And yet it was a small enough issue that it was only interesting, not upsetting. That is, I am not suffused with doubt and anxiety over this; it’s more that I think it’s the kind of thing that brings up a lot of different interesting issues that could then later be applied to larger situations. My mom said it’s the kind of thing that would be in a book of discussion questions for groups, which is what made me think of doing the post.
Here is what happened: I took four of the kids to see a school play. The cost to get in was $3 per person, maximum $10 per family. As we approached the door (so, no time for thinking things over), one of Rob’s friends said (in a pleasant, charming voice), “Hey, can I be part of your family?” Meaning: Could he come in with our group and not pay his $3.
My assessment: Obviously that’s ethically wrong. But it would be extremely awkward to tell him no. And it’s minor, not major. Also, I’m a slow thinker and can’t figure this out.
I said yes. Then I felt a little conflicted about it, but not conflicted enough to do anything, though if I were I could put $3 in an envelope and mail it anonymously to the theater club, since that would at least patch up the money part. So far I’m not that worried about it, but might do it just because it would be pleasing and would remove the element of someone losing out on this situation.
One issue here is the division of ethical responsibility. Rob’s friend is the one who came up with the plan, and the one who involved someone else in a pressured situation, and the one who benefited from it; I paid the same amount of money either way. If anyone were to reimburse the theater club, it should be him. Which is another element that made it harder to say no: it cost me nothing, so it would have been nothing but ethical prissiness behind the no. But it also brings two more details into this: my role was accomplice (as opposed to primary ethics violator), and also it’s important to note that I don’t have authority over the behavior of the teenager involved.
On the other hand, my mom pointed out that one does not want to behave in front of a teenager (one’s own or another) as if such things are no big deal. But then we also agreed that acting in front of a teenager and his friends as if such things ARE a big deal can backfire. And, frankly, such things probably AREN’T such a big deal: this is probably on par with finding after you get home from the store that the cashier charged you for one $2 plastic plate when you bought two. Except since I was not oblivious in this case, it’s more like noticing that the clerk rang up one plate instead of two, but noticing it when it would be awkward and uncomfortable and some minor hassle to fix it (like, after putting my credit card through) and deciding not to. Or maybe it’s like if the clerk winked and rang up both plates as one. Yes, that’s a little better, because it captures the prissiness of response that would be required to Do The Right Thing, and that I’d be bossing/criticizing someone ELSE’S ethical behavior.
You could probably also factor in that for the same $10 the theater club would have let me bring in two more people: Paul and Henry. This doesn’t factor in directly (i.e., the obvious response is “Yes, but that’s because they’re in your family; this other kid was not”), and yet it does add another detail to consider.
So! Isn’t that kind of interesting? We kept circling back to, “Well, it WAS wrong, and I should have said no”—but then getting to “Yes, but then what would I have SAID? Like, what ACTUAL WORDS?” and the fact that it was not a huge deal and that it wasn’t fully my own ethical decision. Which is why it’s so good for thinking through: I DON’T wish in this case to go back in time to do it differently; even with time to think, I would make the same choice in this particular situation. But there could LATER be another situation where I DID consider it a big deal, and all this thinking-it-through NOW can help counteract my slow on-the-spot thinking.
I think I would have done the same thing you did, up to and including feeling that it wasn’t the right thing to do.
With time to prepare, I think I would have smiled and said something like “that wouldn’t really be fair to the group that’s counting on the income from attendance, would it?” (Of course, if I knew what that group was, I would be more specific and if I knew where the money was going, I might have gotten on a little soapbox about how they wouldn’t be able to pay for the cost of the costumes if too many people did this sort of thing and then I would have later felt guilty about getting soapbox-y. Because it’s not possible to win at this sort of thing.)
I think there’s a minor difference in your cashier example. If the person at the gate had known you (or the other teenager) and waved you all in as “a family”, that would have been like the cashier winking as they rang up your order wrong. As it is, I think it’s more like the customer behind you quietly putting an extra plate in your cart.
I also think the fact that you have more family members who you could have brought is beside the point. Those sorts of family caps are intended to allow families like yours (and mine!) to attend this sort of event without having to make financially based decisions on who can attend. (Susie’s best friend is in the play, so she wants to go and Mom or Dad should go with her but we can only afford to spend 15 dollars on the tickets and they’re $5 each, so we can only take one of Susie’s siblings, which should it be? No. The school wants you to be able to say you’ll take as many of Susie’s siblings as you think are of an appropriate age to attend.)
As I write this, I’m realizing that I have strong feelings about entrance fees to school events. My husband coaches a high school sport and is lucky enough to be in a private school that provides him a budget, so he doesn’t charge admission to home games. But a lot of the public schools they play against don’t have a budget. They charge admission (usually paid mostly by the parents of the players) because that’s how they buy their uniforms and pay their travel costs. Hence, my soapbox-y thoughts about how they may not be able to buy costumes without this teenager’s $3. :)
Actually, to your point, I’d suggest
– charging adults a reasonable fixed amount for each of one or two parents
– charging children a nominal amount – perhaps $1 – $3 per child over the age of ____
– providing a way for lower income families to attend / participate WITHOUT being ashamed
I’m not in any of the above categories, so this is just a suggestion. :)
This is interesting. I’m usually very rigid in my principals, for example: a few weeks ago I refused to use an envelope from work for a private letter and my coworker ridiculed me for it. Later I did use the envelope after I remembered I made some phonecalls for work on my private phone so that balanced it out :)
In this case I don’t think I would’ve said anything though. Because it’s a miracle the boy is willing to tear himself away from his computer to go to the theater. Because you also could’ve taken Paul and Henry. Because you’d lose points in Robs eyes and it’s not worth it. And if it makes you feel better you could send in extra applenets or whatever the school needs now :)
Yes, Rosa, exactly! I feel bad about using work supplies, but then I also bring in supplies FOR work on my own dime, so then and only then do I feel totally justified because it balances. I am SO GLAD you do this too! I feel so much better!
I probably would have done the same thing, and then spent the days afterward having this same dialogue with myself. I think that it wasn’t a huge deal, for the reasons you mentioned – you could have taken more people. And honestly, I have some museum/zoo memberships that allow for 4 kids and I only have 2, so I let the kids bring friends (none of them actually state that it should be your own kids), but I don’t stress for the same reason.
I think my dilemma here would be less about if I were cheating out the theater group and more about the lesson I was teaching this other kid (and my own). Still, I don’t think it is a huge deal, and refusing to allow him would have probably caused more trouble than it was worth – with him, his parents, my kids, etc. I would probably be fretting about how to handle it if it happened again, and most likely would end up paying for the other kid so I didn’t feel like I did something wrong, rather than making a big deal about it, but that is TOTALLY not the right thing – for me to shell out money rather than just say no. Sometimes I am perfectly OK with confrontation, but other times, it’s paralyzing. I am so weird.
I’d have said, “Sorry, but no.” But say it a kind way. If I wanted to be nice to him, I’d have asked if he wanted me to pay for his entrance fee instead.
Wow, this is a good one–on the one hand, you don’t want to embarass your teenager (although having a teenager of my own I realize that we embarass them already just by existing, LOL). But on the other hand, you want to set a good example by refusing to do something unethical and you don’t want this kid (or your own) to think this type of thing is okay.
Being put on the spot like that, I probably would have done the same thing you did–I’m not a quick thinker, either. But in hindsight I’d think the best thing to do would have been to say, “Oh, we do think of you as family! But I’ll pay for your ticket; I don’t want to cheat the theater out of their money.” That way you’d be setting a good ethical example while still being warm and nice toward Rob’s friend. Note that if we were talking about $10 instead of $3, my answer might have been different–I’d ask if he had money with him before offering to pay myself.
I’m thinking what I would have liked to have done in that situation would have been to say “no, you aren’t in our family so that would be wrong, but I’d be happy to pay for your ticket.” But who knows if I would have thought of that at the time? Probably I would have actually done exactly what you did.
I saw your title and thought “oooh a nice ethical dilemma for Monday morning”
First a question and then a few thoughts. Where did the kid come from? Was he alone? Was he not with his OWN family? Was he dropped off with $3 to see the play?
I have a few thoughts:
* Were I in your position exactly how it went down, then I would have said “Oh honey, that’s not the right thing to do. Did your Mom give you money for the play?” I wouldn’t make a production out of it, more a concerned kind Mom voice. My thoughts on this one are that I’m always teaching my kids. If his Mom hadn’t given him money (why else was he there?) then I would have paid for him if I were able to do so. If his Mom had given him money I would have sort of guided him into paying for his ticket. I’m not prissy mcprisserson, but if I break the rules, my kids are ON THAT and they start to doubt me.
* Now, had the situation been that we had plans beforehand to pick up another child and have that child be a part of our group, I probably would have paid the family price. I’m not sure what the technical difference is but it feels okay ethically. The first option felt like cooperation of breaking the rules vs. this one feels like we are a group together pre-formed.
He was dropped off and on his own, but I don’t know if he was given $3 or not.
“Now, had the situation been that we had plans beforehand to pick up another child and have that child be a part of our group, I probably would have paid the family price. I’m not sure what the technical difference is but it feels okay ethically.” – yes! totally! That’s so weird to me, but definitely true.
For me, a good response would have been “Ha ha, no.” and acted like he was kidding to help him save face. Although allow me to admit, I would have done exactly what you did and thought of that after.
At this point, I would send them the 3 bucks. You’ll feel better. If you don’t want to do that, give 3 bucks to a homeless person to make the universe even. Sort of.
I think (had I been given a moment to think), that I would have asked him if he had $3, and if not, I would have paid it for him. I still feel guilty about a time in college that the girl I barely knew who worked at McDonald’s didn’t charge me for my meal. I would have insisted on paying, but I didn’t want to get HER into trouble for cheating her employer.
I feel like the main issue here is not the loss of $3 to the school theatre club (and I do not think you have an obligation to refund the lost money), but rather the concern about confirming the boy’s impression that it’s okay to circumvent rules in this way. In that sense, it’s relevant to consider how he would likely respond to your reaction to his suggestion, but at the same time one should not set the bar too high: he does not have to be overcome with the conviction that he will never again try to save himself $3 by fraudulently entering a theatre. Your obligation is to avoid encouraging fraudulent behaviour; all you need to aim for is neutrality. Of course, if you were his parent, there would be a higher obligation: you would have to take some steps to encourage his capacity to think ethically.
My inclination would be to pretend that he was confused about the rules. “Oh, I’m pretty sure the family admission only applies to blood relatives.” Then you’re not rebuking him or assuming a sermonizing stance, and he can save face without feeling that he’s been called out for something.
this post is making me feel guilty, since i am broke and therefore a total moocher.
NO. I’m not taking it that this is what the post is about at ALL. I think everyone has said that if they were able to, they’d gladly pay FOR the child. The question is more about the way to do it that is fair and right all around.
I think most people go through times in their lives when they are broke and lean on friends, and we all hope that someday our friends will be able to lean on us. <3
This is the exact type of conundrum I relish in fleshing out — the stuff of meaty conversations with a girlfiend (or mother) over the phone as I attempt to busy myself away from dishes/laundry/other more pressing tasks at hand.
I love your comparison to a follow-up question at the end of a story. So true. I also love your admitting that you don’t think fast enough, as that is usually my biggest regret when assessing why something didn’t go the way it should. I never, ever, ever think fast enough. Total deer-in-headlights, I am.
You definitely did the same thing I would have done — allow the minor bend of ethics and let the friend slide in with my family. And, like you, I would have felt the subtle tug at my conscience as it was all playing out, suggesting that maybe it wasn’t the completely right thing to do. However — in thinking it over more fully, how about this: Other people’s children become my children when temporarily under my wing, thus, they are in those moments my “family.” No fudging here, just the truth. On further inspection, I see no real dilemma in ushering in the friend. Especially because it seems it was a friend of your child (as opposed to an adult friend of yours, which would then of course be a different story).
Just my two cents. Oh — I also completely relate to the notion that this friend put you in the awkward position of going along with the plan because it was sprung so spur-of-the-moment. Funny how our need to appease even “iffy” ideas trumps our instinct to gut-check.
Hmm. As someone who works in theatre, I can bring another interesting issue in to play here. Getting the rights for the production of a show is a fairly complicated process, and the rights holders will use ticket prices as part of the equation for figuring out how much to charge for rights. I can’t see any copyright companies being ok with the idea of “$10 for everyone in the family!” with no strict limits on a family. So that makes me think that the school did NOT go about getting the proper rights to perform the show.
OR it could have been an original production written by someone connected to the school/a show in the public domain, which means rights would have been free, and their costs would have been kept way down, and it was likely they were seeing any money made from tickets as entirely profit and were EXPECTING (and not worrying about) the occasional moral fudging of their family ticket.
Not that any of that makes what the kid did any more right, but will hopefully make your agreement to it feel less wrong.
I don’t know if you ever use the Bible for guidance on ethical matters, but there’s a little verse I like to keep in the back of my mind for situations like this: “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.” It makes a lot of sense to me in many situations. Luke 16:10 (NIV)
I don’t feel like this is TRUE, though. Like, if I see I’ve been undercharged 50 cents on a Target receipt, I don’t go back; but I went back when they accidentally put a pair of $3 clearance earrings in my bag without charging me. I think many people will let small things go without worrying about it, and yet be ethical people in larger matters and overall.
Sorry, just read your comment. You can disregard my other comments if you think the $dollar amount is relevant to ethics.
Oh, don’t you think so? I definitely do think so. I’d say there is a significant ethical difference between choosing to ignore a 50-cent bank error in my favor and choosing to ignore a $500 one. I think there are many things that increase or decrease the severity of an ethical choice, and that “amount of money involved” is one of them.
First of all, sorry for all the many comments. Guess I had too much time on my hands.
And secondly, you have a good point. I don’t even notice the small overcharges on my credit card statement. Probably I should; however if I miss them, no big deal.
I feel like the ethical part of the dilemma is the message the other boy is getting, rather than the money. Probably the IDEAL thing to do would be to say something like, “Do you have the $3?” and if he did not, to give it to him rather than let him come in as part of your $10 payment.
My initial thought is that it’s not that big of deal, but then I read the other comments and I really liked the ones who said they would ask if he had the $3 or not, and offered to pay. Of course, I wouldn’t have thought of that in the moment, so I’m going to file this away in the back of my head should the situation arise.
Also, that works well with children/teenagers, but what about peers/friends? I would have a MUCH harder time with that.
I guess the main thing is I’d want to talk to my kids about it and say, “You know, I was put on the spot in that situation. Do you understand how your friend’s request was a bit in the gray area?” It’s hard to say if the kid was grifting his mom out of $3 or if it was more like innocent flakiness. I’d want it to be clear to my kids that I didn’t think it was cool and why. I had a shady housemate in college who did things similar but worse than this. She’d try to add extra money to the bills she was in charge of paying for the house. Like we owed her some sort of processing fee. It was awful and awkward to deal with. Well, there isn’t much helpful there, I would have been caught off guard too. But mostly, I’d just want to make sure my kids didn’t think this was how I’d want them to go about things.
I did this on the way home!
I really like Jen’s answer above. I’m not sure I would have thought of that on my own.
H took Ren to see a movie a few weeks ago. Ren is four, but kids under four are free. The ticket seller said to H, “Are you SURE your kid isn’t three? Three-year-olds are free.” H was like, “Fine, he’s three.” Then Ren asked H a ton of quesitons and H felt bad about the whole thing. So we decided that if something like that happens again, we’ll say, “No, we’ll buy two tickets” or whatever.
So though I would have liked to though of Jen’s answer, what I probably would have said was something like, “Oh, sorry, we have a Family Rule against that.” Remember Tessie’s thing about Rules? I miss Tessie.
At first my response is that I would have asked the kid if he had the $3 and if not offered to pay, but I just imagined someone asking my 15-year-old-self “Oh honey, don’t you have $3?” and DYING OF EMBARRASSMENT either way (if I didn’t have it I’d feel terribly ashamed and poor, if I did have it I’d feel terribly ashamed of being accused of doing something wrong). So although I might have asked I would have probably backed down when the kid appeared embarrassed.
I think in this case, the theater probably expected a lot of this behavior. Creating a family-group rate means they didn’t care about specific costs and were happy to let in 4 or 5 people to occupy 4 or 5 seats and only pay for 3ish of those seats. There is no way to ask a family to PROVE they are all a legal family at a ticket counter and the theater company is obviously aware of that fact and decided they were OK with it. I am positive you were not the only family group that wasn’t related.
I think there are situations where something like this is right, and situations where it is wrong(ish). Ed and my brother take the kids to a racing event every year. They buy the family admission because they are 2 adults responsible for between 2 and 4 kids. I think this is ok.
Also ok is if another child is accompanying your family to an event. We (remember, Ed and I run the PTA) do a family price at a lot of our school events and fully expect one mom to bring a whole gaggle of kids. We expect to charge the family price in those situations.
Wrong is lying about a child’s age for free admission and things along those lines.
Grand scheme, I don’t think including the other boy is a big deal, but I get the ethical dillema. I’m having a hard time deciding what I would do if I were in the same situation. It’s a tough call!
In an effort to put the responsibility where it belongs/give opinionated children a chance to make their own choices before those choices have serious consequences, in situations like this, I like to look at the person who asked and say something like, “What do YOU think?” or “Would that be the right/honest thing to do?” or “Is your integrity worth $3?” or something else that would likely make me unpopular with my kids’ friends (but might keep them from trying to put me in a position like that again!).
If I thought the child didn’t have the money, I would offer to pay for his ticket, but if he was just trying to keep his $3 by being sneaky, I would ask one of those questions…if I wasn’t so surprised by the charming attempt at sneakiness that I was rendered speechless.
I’m not sure what I’d have done because my little brain bluescreens when asked to think that fast. But, I think in my heart I have a role to not allow that, to explain that’s wrong and why, and how the theater deserves every bit of the money they get, and how many people work on this etc. I would say I’d be happy to pay his $3. If I didn’t want to speak directly to him I’d tell the attendant, here’s the $10 for us and $3 for him. But I do think it was rather shitty of him to even put you in that position in the first place. I absolutely cannot stand people who do what they can to circumvent admissions restrictions… this is right up there with parents telling their kids to lie about their age so they can get in free.
If I could think of it quickly enough I would probably have done what several other commenters said. “Oh, do you need $3 to get in?” My kids are only 4 and 6 but I’ve worked with teenagers quite a bit. I would want to phrase my response to sound like I assume they would do the right thing, and the problem must be that they don’t have the ability to pay. I find that this gets my point across with the added benefit that they learn to view me as a person who expects integrity from them. If the kid does have the $3 but wants to scam you out of another $3 he can do that, but YOU are ethically in the clear and you’ve set as good an example as you can for someone else’s kid.
Another way to do the “paying for him anyway” angle would be to pretend you thought he was asking you to pay for him. You’d just go up and say, “Here’s $10 for my family, and $3 for my son’s friend.” You wouldn’t talk about it ahead of time, you’d just pretend that’s what you thought he meant.
That approach would suit my (admittedly passive) conflict resolution style, because I don’t have to be prissy or make a big gesture out of it, but I’m still giving the school their due and taking a minor hit for it myself. If the kid is the kind of conscientious that worries about taking stuff from friends but doesn’t worry about taking stuff from institutions (common!) he’ll feel a little embarrassed that you paid for him instead of just giving him a free ride, and will likely think twice before doing such a thing again. (It also requires that, if that situation were to exactly duplicate itself, he’d have to spell out exactly what he meant: “Can you pretend that I’m part of your family so I can get in for free?” Making people spell out the exact slightly-dishonest thing they’re planning is a great deterrent in a lot of cases.)
I would NEVER have thought of this in the moment, so I’m glad to have had the opportunity to consider it ahead of time!
Agree with Jen. :)
I am a rule follower, so i’d have probably said no in that particular situation. (I like the idea of offering to pay for him).
BUT! If you’d invited him to come to the theater and drove him there, then i’d have had no problem with counting him with your family, so…. I guess i’m kind of wishy-washy. :)
i *definitely* would not have been able to come up with anything in the moment, so would have said “oh. uh… yeah, ok, fine” and then felt weird about it but not known why. I think Annika is spot on: it’s because i’d have been demonstrating slightly-not-ok morals to my kids & the friend kid, NOT because what was happening was inherently terrible or anything. interesting situation & discussion!
How about, “Oh, yeah, but you’re REALLY EXTENDED family, so I have to pay for you separately.” Like make a joke of the “in your family” thing. And I agree with those who said it wouldn’t have been a bad idea to ask if his parents sent the $3, but also not really necessary to make a production out of it.
If the tickets cost more than three dollars (i.e. five or ten dollars) I might have said “oh, well, maybe make a donation to the cause anyways?” with a big smile but since it was only three dollars I don’t think it was worth it. I think you made the right call.
Side note: I don’t feel bad using family rates for non-biological family units. I think as long as there is an adult and some combination of offspring/friends/cousins that it’s okay to use the family rate.
What I like to think that I would think of in the moment but actually would not: “Oh, I don’t know! Here, we’ll ask when we get to the ticket window.” I like this because it shows rule-abidingness while acknowledging that it was, in fact, a good/thrifty idea (assuming it is allowed), and is welcoming to the friend. At the ticket window something like: “Five of us and our friend are sitting together/seeing the play together. Does he count as “family”?”
So, once inside, did this other kid sit with you all? Or did Rob go sit with him separate from the rest of you? I’m not sure exactly why I’m asking, but it seems sort of relevant. Like, basically he came with you, and now you’re responsible for him. If he was behaving badly, or had gotten ill during the play, wouldn’t you have now sort of felt like you had to be the one to handle it?
Was his mom/dad around at all, or did s/he just drop him off? Do you know this kid well enough tto speak to the parents about it? Does this kid know that you do have a large family and no one would have been the wiser? Do you feel it was premeditated or just kind of random thing?
Was this a school-related type of event? Or a production with “real”actors (by which I mean, not people getting paid to act, but people who love to act and do it in their spare time for a small theater company)?
I’m not trying to muddy the waters, these are all just questions that seem relevant to how I would feel about the situation if I were put in that position.
-He and Rob sat separately from us.
-I didn’t think of him as coming with us, or of me being responsible for him–either before or after he joined our group briefly at the ticket table.
-He was dropped off.
-This was the first time I’d met him.
-I’ve never met his parents.
-Yes, he knows we have a large family.
-I don’t know for sure, of course, but my impression was that it was impulsive.
-It was a school play, put on by the theater club; the whole audience was family members of people in the play. (Or at least, I don’t think anyone else would have wanted to attend!)
The fact that it was a small school production would likely erase my worry/concern that I had handled it wrong. I bet if the kid didn’t get in with your family rate, and maybe didn’t have $3, he would have just told them he didn’t have any money at the ticket table, and they would have let him in. Maybe, maybe not. I’m now seeing the admission cost as more of a “free will” offering…
Ok, I’m not reading all the comments before posting, so I may repeat what someone else has said.
In a sense, I have been that kid – not really, was never in a situation like that – but: my parents would have done that to me. We were always poor AND my parents were the kind to say “she’s 12” when I was 13 or 14 so they could get the 12 and under discount, etc. I could easily see them pushing me towards a large family and saying, “Look, there is Susie’s family, join them and get in free…go on now: go!” and I would have had no choice. If the family said “no” it would have been so embarrassing and knowing my mom, would have meant I couldn’t be friends with those “mean” people anymore. All I’m saying is: drama a plenty for a measly $3.
You know this boy and maybe none of this applies, but my point is only that you never know what kids are dealing with and what seems normal and rational to you – is not the world he/she is living in. Choosing to get on a moral high horse and embarrass a kid seems a shittier thing to do than just nod and let it go.
I would have told the kid sure and added $3 to what I paid without making a scene about it or even letting the kid know. I would talk to my kids later and ask about it – what did they think – and make a gentle point to let them know I did not think it was ok to cheat to get anyone in without paying and let them know I did pay for the ticket. It’s a good situation to discuss with kids too –
kim
This is a very good point, and something that hadn’t yet occurred to me. Yes, I would REALLY hate to have gone the shaming/lecturing/questioning route on a kid whose parents had put him in that position.
This was my concern, too! In the moment, I probably wouldn’t have thought to do anything other than an uncomfortable ‘um, sure.’ But! If the situation were to arise now, I’d go with a variation on ‘oh, sure we can cover the cost of your ticket’ for a cheap thing, or ‘yeah, we can loan you the money for this’ for a bigger one. I also like the idea of being explicit at the ticket window, so that the cashier can decide whether to be generous as well.
For me, there’s a minor ethical issue with the school – I’d want to give them the $, but that’s because I can totally afford it. I don’t think that it’s ‘wrong’ for someone who really doesn’t have the money to squeeze in under lax rules.
I think the ethical issue is potentially with the kid – if he isn’t making the best of a bad situation, but is instead consciously manipulating you, then it’s a problem. You’re not going to change him, but having a response that shows that you find the rules to be important could help Rob if this friend pushes him to break bigger rules. (I loved that my parents always told me to ‘blame them’ if I needed to say no to something but felt uncomfortable.) Great question to ponder!
I feel like if he had $3 to go to the play and was just trying to keep it for himself, that even in hindsight I would think he was a brat and want him to pay his own $3.
If he wasn’t given $3, my feelings are different.
If you had a family museum/attraction membership that you paid for monthly/yearly/etc and you took your kids and one of their friends, would you include the friend as “family” or would you insist on buying a separate ticket for them?
For me, I assume that if tickets are “$X each or a maximum of $Y for a family” or “membership is $Z a year and covers C amount of kids in the family” or whatever, they know that some people are going to fudge a bit and bring kids who aren’t related by blood/adoption as part of the group. And maybe that kid is going to be a step kid whose other parent has custody 90% of the time, or a cousin, or your youngest kid’s BFF who practically lives at your house, or your neighbor’s kid who you’re watching while said neighbor is in the hospital or whatever. I assume that the cost is factored in and reasonable people have a bit of flexibility wrt it. Life is messy and sprawling and things come up and families aren’t neatly defined.
So for me, personally, lumping another kid into your family group isn’t a big deal. If you were bringing in, like, five extra kids? That’d be more of a problem. But one kid isn’t such a big deal.
It sounds like you feel you were being put on the spot/taken advantage of, though. Here’s this kid you don’t know who made assumptions about you and got in for free as a result. He’s now, in theory, $3 richer because he didn’t spend that $3 on the play. And he didn’t arrange it ahead of time, he just maneuvered you socially into paying for him which is a bit intrusive.
So if something like this happened to me, I’d talk to my kid(s) about socially manipulating people and how it can be rude, and what he did was invasive and why it made me feel uncomfortable. And I might drift into fiscal ethics, but again, I think orgs like that expect people to fudge their groups a bit.
After thinking about it for a bit, I’ve decided I’d go with “Oh no! Did you forget your money? I’m sorry! I can loan you $3!” I like how it isn’t interrogating (Did your mom give you money? Do you have it right there? Are you trying to be a cheater?) and insinuates that of course this kid isn’t trying to cheat the system, there must be extenuating circumstances. I would of course know that’s likely NOT the case, but am implying that I assume people are honest. Sort of a “if your expectations are high, maybe the kid will be inspired to live up to them” kind of thing.
Also, if he takes me up on the offer to “loan” $3 then I would later make it clear – maybe when I’m buying the ticket and the kid is standing next to me or something – that he doesn’t need to worry about paying me back this time. I really don’t like the “I’ll pay for your ticket!” terminology, though. I’m trying to discourage mooching in this situation, not reinforce that it works.
Nothing to add to the debate, but I must tell you, the image of you and your mom discussing this at length pleases me greatly. I love that you have her to discuss scenarios, etc. which you clearly love to do. You seem to be a perfect match. That is all.
For some reason, to me the fact that you don’t know this boy and have never met him or his family before colors my feelings. If it was a kid that was good friends with my son and we knew his family or similar, I’d probably phrase it like “oh, no, did you forget your money?” Because that would be the most likely explanation for all my son’s friends that I know well. With someone unknown who, unplanned, maneuvered my into that situation I’m afraid my mouth would get ahead of my brain and I’d end up saying something like “you know you’re just cheating your own school, right?” I’d likely regret it later, but that kind of social manipulation pushes my buttons and my mouth gets ahead of me sometimes.
Upon cool reflection here in the comments, I think the “oh no, did you forget your money” and then paying for him route would be the one I was most comfortable with.
I certainly doubt I would have been able to think quickly enough on my feet to do anything other than what you did, either. However, after the fact, I find myself feeling kind of hard-hearted about it. No, it’s not my job to police another kid’s behavior or teach him a lesson, and neither would I want to embarrass him or my own children, especially without knowing the friend’s circumstances. Maybe his family *did* drop him off at the play without money and expect him figure out something on his own. But, if that is the case, then I agree with previous posters’ suggestions of offering to pay his $3 for him, whether asking him about it blatantly (which I would if I felt in the moment that the kid was trying to scam me/his parents) or just paying for the ticket without comment. It might even be that a sympathetic ticket taker, on hearing “5 tickets at the family rate plus one for my son’s friend” would just charge the family price any way. And on realizing that’s probably what I would/should have done after the fact, I might feel more responsible for finding a way to repay the theater group now.
I also don’t personally feel comfortable making the shopping analogy. I agree with everything you wrote about not making a fuss when you’ve been undercharged a very small amount or ended up with two stacked items when you were only charged for one (which actually happened to me, even though I only INTENDED to get one, which somehow made me feel it was ok to keep the second? I don’t know, I was a college student at the time, and didn’t discover it for weeks after the fact) . But those cases involve unintentional screw ups and weighing the costs of fixing the screw up (holding up the line, embarrassing the cashier, hauling three kids back into the store when I just got the car loaded, whatever) against what the store is actually losing. The case under discussion feels more like deliberate cheating to me, and being put in the position of having to either publicly (at least in front of my kids) condone or condemn said cheating. It seems more analogous to running into my kid’s friend at the store and having him hang out while we do our shopping, then just before getting to the counter, grab a pack of gum and ask me to put it in my purse. Yes, it’s a very small amount of money, and it would VERY likely embarrass me, my kid, and the friend to call it out in that moment, but neither would I want to aid the friend in shoplifting in front of my own kids, either. (In such a case, I think a very innocent, cheerful “Oh, you want me to buy you this pack of gum? SURE!” would save everybody face while also not making me an accomplice to a misdemeanor). I doubt most people would equate the theater situation with outright stealing or shoplifting, and legally it’s obviously not the same. But it is gaming a system that’s put in place to help large families save some costs on seeing a play that one member is participating in. Just like shoplifting drives up prices for everybody, trying to cheat a family-friendly system could ultimately result in that system going away when it’s no longer cost-effective. I realize this is more likely to happen at, say, Disneyland or the San Diego Zoo than for school theater productions, but I’m just trying to look at it from a perspective of the actual, abstract ethics. With that said, this really is only my “principle of the thing” perspective. As I said upfront, I don’t know that I would have had the wherewithal to do anything differently to begin with, nor the energy or guts to deal with it after the fact. From a practical standpoint, it really doesn’t seem like a big deal … except the part where I admonish my kids that they better not try pulling anything like that with their own friends’ parents, etc.
I think that this is a great opportunity to be an example of both generosity and honesty to your kids.
Without making a big deal or putting the teenager on the spot, say of course you can come in with us. Then when it comes time to pay you say, I’ve got one family admission and one extra teenager. No problem and no big deal.
I don’t see any reason that you need to worry about ‘teaching the kid a lesson’ or worry that they are taking advantage of you. It’s a friend of your child and you have an opportunity to be generous.
So many unknowns! Put on the spot at the theater! I probably would have done exactly what you did – because what else could you have done? You didn’t know if he had $3, or if his parents told him to find some big family and sneak in, or if he was trying to cheat them out of it. I would have liked it if i did what others have said, which is to say, of course you can and then just pay the $3 for him, but I don’t know that I would have thought that quickly. When we were little, my mother wouldn’t cheat on ONE thing. She is the most honest person I know, and she just was such a pain! One time we wanted to win a radio contest and we had already won so we wanted her to give her name as her maiden name and she wouldn’t do it. She would never take one piece of paper from her office, etc., and we thought she was a *total* square but I had total respect for that. I’d like to be that kind of mother, I’d like my kids to grow up thinking that’s the way it should be. I figure even if I would be more, ahem, flexible about it, the world is WAY more flexible than I, so maybe to achieve a morals balance, I should err on the side of over-justice and over-honesty.
I am apparently going to be the person that will be labeled as the cheater, but I would have included the kid on the family price and not really thought too much about it. Mainly because that is what I would think someone would do for my kid. I suppose I might have paid the $10 and then an additional $3, but I would have paid for the kid.
I never want to make a scene so in situations like this I’d assume the boy was asking to be included because he didn’t have the money. I wouldn’t ask him in front of my kids if he had the money (how embarrassing if he didn’t), I’d just agree to include him but give the cashier the extra $3 if I had it with me. If the ticket price was more, say $10 or over, I don’t carry extra cash with me, so in that case I would have said “sorry, no”.
I think I would want to know the motivation of the friend. Were his parents/family there and he just didnt want to sit with them? In which case he was technically paid for anyway. If they werent there, had his parents given him the $3 and he wanted to keep it? Or did he simply want to hang out with your son and didnt especially think of the $3 factor. I would base my decision on that answer (or at least my instinct about which answer was the truth). Either way I would have let him sit with us, but I’d either have paid the $3 myself (if he wanted to hang out with my son) or said “We’d be happy to have you sit with us, but you need to pay to get in.”
YES. That’s one of the major elements here that makes it so difficult to figure out the answer: we DON’T know his motivation. The ethical puzzle has to be solved without knowing—or by including a comfortable way of finding out on the spot.
Wow. I’m sooooo impressed with all of the clever and insightful responses.
I definitely would not have been quick witted enough to have done anything other than agree at the time.
I grew up in a very poor family and we were always encouraged to try to find and utilise loopholes like this. In fact, in cases like this as a kid the only way I could watch the show would be if I found a “family” to include me – usually by going with a friend and their parents. So if this happened to me I would have been worried about being “caught” but not about the ethical side of it.
However, now that I have read your post and the comments I have realised that it IS ethically wrong – and I wouldn’t want to encourage my daughter (who is 7) to think that it was OK.
Using this new world view I think that (if I could think quickly enough – which I certainly couldn’t, so it’s a bit of a moot point!) I would go with what HereWeGoAjen, Bea, or JMT suggested. I like the idea of saying something that removes any embarrassment for the kid – I know that I was always deeply embarrassed as a child to have to pretend to be younger, or to “get around” paying full price for things, and I would go to great lengths to avoid people knowing how poor we were. I also like the idea of offering to pay, but only if there is a way to do it without it coming off as “charity” (which, again, I desperately tried to avoid as a kid), for example asking at the counter “does he count as family as we’re together?” and then just paying the extra without saying anything to the kid if the person at the window said no.
I know that there’s no reason to think that the kid was poor or was in any way similar to my childhood self, but I would err on the side of caution “just in case” – if that isn’t the reason (for example, the kid has the $3 but wants to keep it to spend on something else) I wouldn’t care about that because it’s not my job to teach that kid, and I’m not bothered if the kid thinks I’m a mug for it.
I’m posting before reading any responses so I can go with my gut, but I think the most ethical thing to have done (not necessarily what I’d have done in the moment) would be to say “Aw Rob’sFriend, you know you’re one of the family but I like supporting the theatre club so I’ll just pay an extra £3 for you” (obviously depends on how close the friend actually is…)
Obviously you’re still paying when it should have been him, but you’re pointing out that in this case the money is going to a good cause so it’s not like trying to cheat a big corporation.
Let me start by saying that I object on principle to the fact that we would charge school-aged kids to attend a school theatre performance. I get that there are good reasons and it may be necessary, but I still object.
I don’t know that I’d have thought of it in the moment, but I think the right way to deal with this would absolutely be to say, “Oh we’d love to have you join us! I hope you’ll let me pay for your entry!” and then pay the extra $3 as if it would never occur to you that someone wouldn’t Honestly, I think taking that welcoming, generous and responsible approach sets a good example in so many different dimensions. Now I just hope I can remember it when I am similarly situated.
It’s interesting to me that some people think the parents would drop their kid off without the means to get into the play and just expect him to somehow cheat his way in, since I was raised by parents who were scrupulously honest. I would just tell my kid she couldn’t go. I guess that’s why I’m assuming the kid is just trying to keep the money his folks gave him by schmoozing you into letting him be part of your family – my parents’ honesty has made me permanently naive. And I don’t see it as being the same as a situation where you invited him to accompany you, in which case his parents might have assumed you were offering to pay for him and neglected to give him any money (and I would just quietly pay for him).
My immediate thought was, there’s nothing wrong with letting said teenager into your group. Here’s my reasoning, ethical or not :D : had you had two more family members with you, that would have been the maximum number of people you could bring, and you would still have to pay your 10 hard-earned dollars (which, personally, I find crazy, but I’m also a goodwill-shopper, so…). HOWEVER, you did not have those two people, but you still had to pay $10, so why not allow someone else to join you? AND from a teen’s perspective, it earns you major cool-parent points :D
One the other hand (darn that hand! Too many options!), as Elizabeth said, Friend may have been twisting a few ethical rules himself, keeping the money his parents gave him and squeezing in with your family for free.
Now that I’ve switched sides on my own argument – just viewing all angles to better formulate my opinion! – I think letting Friend be part of your family for one night was just fine. There.
•Pëáçē•
I’m so glad I’m not the only one that find these gray areas upsetting. Usually, it discomfits me, I say no, and then everyone gives me dirty looks. I don’t have kids, and I’m sure the “parent” to “kid’s friend” angle changes things quite a bit. I like the idea of “oh, do you not have the money, we’ll spot you!”
As a teenager, my parents had membership at a gym that allowed member’s (teenage) children to join for $1. I wanted a workout buddy and was old enough that both me and my friend were driving (ie: not coming in with parents). My mom talked to the store manager and he let my friend be an additional child in my parent’s family for the $1. So he knew she wasn’t family, but corporate didn’t. It earned him goodwill from my parents and, as our plan fell apart within a few months, didn’t really tax the gym. Still, my mom and I both would have felt weird if we had just straight up lied on the application.
So Swistle, after a few days and a whole bunch of comments…would you change how you handled it? Have you come to any conclusions?
So far none of the suggested scripts have been ones I can imagine myself saying while in the actual situation, so I’m still thinking that even with forethought I would have done the same thing. The one I would have done with forethought AND if the boy hadn’t been standing right next to me is to hand over $13, saying “One family and one individual, please.” I like the non-confrontational/non-embarrassing ethical tidiness of that. (But with him right next to me, it instead seems pointed/passive-aggressive/embarrassing, so still doesn’t work for me and the actual situation.)
Would “one family and one guest, please” feel less passive aggressive? I mean, if you suddenly (in response to his request to join your family) were struck by a generous impulse (as I am attempting to endorse!) felt moved to include him as your guest … what is passive aggressive about that?
I’ll be honest, I’m astonished at how many commenters perceive an important “teach the [malingering] teen a lesson” angle here, because I just … don’t. I do agree there is a lesson to be learned/taught about not bending/breaking rules for personal advantage, but I also consider it entirely appropriate for community adults to be routinely and enthusiastically generous toward community kids. Given that, the thought that any adult who is asked the “can I join your family” question would (naturally and inherently) perceive that as a request for care and togetherness (rather than cheapness or cheati-ness) and would therefore spontaneously feel inclined to cover the kid’s cost as a simple gesture of generosity continues to strike me as the logical way to go.
For me it’s because he’s asking to be included in our “family rate,” knowing it won’t cost me anything; if I suddenly pay extra for him, it’s embarrassing for him: he didn’t mean to cost me money, and there I am paying for him. And to me, it would feel like I was trying to make a “teaching a teen a lesson” point without saying it outright—that’s where the passive-aggressiveness comes in.
Right, I get it, but that’s not in fact what he asked — right? He asked if he could be part of your family, which is why playing absolutely dumb and acting as if you assumed he meant he wanted to be part of your group — to enjoy your company, and share his with you — while generously figuring of course you’d just go ahead and treat him because obviously he could not possibly (remember, playing dumb here) have meant to suggest not paying the required entry fee, but of course he’s just a kid, and good heavens, you’d be delighted to treat him, is a solution that (again, assuming I would be on-my-toes enough to grab it in the moment, which is a big assumption) completely avoids the passive-aggressive problem in my book, while also modeling a lot of other good traits.
Admittedly, this approach does require the ability to portray a certain perhaps not entirely genuine enthusiastic and maternal naivetee. Can you tell I’ve lived in the (US) South virtually my entire life?
Yes, but you asked me what was passive-aggressive about it, and deliberately misunderstanding him in order to make a point is exactly what’s passive-aggressive about it to me.
Ah, OK. I guess that just doesn’t feel passive-aggressive to me. My Southern roots showing.
This bit is the most interesting part of the whole discussion for me–as another lifelong Southerner, I realize that by definition this IS a passive-aggressive move, but to me it’s a way of maintaining the polite fiction that he wasn’t asking you to be dishonest, he was just asking to hang out with your group.
Southeners are big on polite fiction; sometimes it can a nice way to smooth over social snafus. And sometimes it’s the reason you don’t find out until you’re 15 that your aunt is actually your cousin and you have an uncle you never knew existed. Hypothetically.
After reading all the comments, I decided that this was actually the right thing to do. I might have been more vague and said “these are all with me” while handing over the £10, but yeah. Everything else is nice in theory but can’t actually imagine it happening.
I’ve been mulling this over and just like many commenters, I am ambivalent. It didn’t cost the school or yourself anything, per se. The only glitch is that his attendance with your family is that it wasn’t arranged ahead of time.
Knowing teenagers, his parents may not have even known that there was a charge so his using the possibly money “saved” isn’t a factor in my head. Also in the teenager category: they don’t plan well, usually and it’s not like this was a nefarious act.
I guess if one was to support something perhaps “non-ethical”, I guess entry to a school play is a good thing in the long run. It’s not like you bought him a ticket to Marilyn Manson for goodness sake.
What does Rob think of what happened? I guess I’d gauge my opinion on what his response was.
Hmmm. Put on the spot, I probably would have said yes to him (although I hope I would have paid a separate fee for him, so I could explain that privately to my own children). I have a little problem with the “slippery slope” breaking of rules – cheating on taxes, shoplifting small items, breaking line, lying about whether you in fact DID drop your phone/laptop/etc.. It’s true breaking rules that don’t directly hurt someone else (at least physically, some of these could hurt others financially) doesn’t seem as bad as those that could (running a red light, speeding, talking on the cell phone while driving), but just feeling rules don’t apply to one personally might lead from the non-dangerous to the dangerous rule violations. The sense of entitlement and not having to play by the same rules as everyone else is something I find irritating in others. I try to tell my daughter it’s better to keep it simple – tell the truth, follow rules meant to make life flow more evenly (as opposed to rules in Nazi Germany, for instance), realize you’re no better or worse than anyone else. On the other hand, I realize this was a minor situation, and I don’t think very fast on my feet.
I think it’s less like a slope and more like stairs. It doesn’t seem like it’s as if we’re standing on level ground as long as we’re perfect, and one step onto the slope of non-perfection makes us struggle for our footing and possibly lose it altogether, as in the slippery slope visualization; it seems to me that in actual practice it’s more that we all start at a step (based on our life experiences/training/personalities), and we go up or down until we’re at a spot that feels okay to us. I suppose some people might take one wrong step and go tumbling all the way down, as with, say, a first try at hard drugs that leads to a ruined life. But for most of us it doesn’t seem like people go sliding way down from minor misbehaviors to terrible ones. Most of us fudge a little here or a little there in small ways (white lies, keeping the 50-cent overcharge) at whatever level feels basically okay to us, without it leading to ever-worsening behavior—or into feeling outside the law/rules, which I find extremely irritating (<--- understatement) too. The stairs analogy still works with what people are worried about when they say slippery slope, because certainly it's easier to go down another step once you're down a few---but it also better reflects what I see when I look at the people around me, which is that people seem like they go to a certain level of misbehavior and then stay basically at that same level their whole lives.
I just wanted to provide a gripping update and tell you that upon further reflection, I really don’t care at all, and would feel no lingering guilt or even feelings. If not paying $3 is the wayward act of villainy in which this teen is partaking, I’d say Rob has some pretty high quality and straight-and-narrow friends. I might have felt all of your feelings, but I quickly would have gotten over it. If the $3 itself seemed to be at issue, I would pay it, sure, but I really don’t think that NOT paying for it is going to send your children (or the add-on teen) down a path of shoplifting or hard drug use or even disrespect for others.
Plus I WANT teens to go to school plays. Yes! Attend!
Although this IS interesting to discuss, and I’ve been checking back in on the comments, and my feelings vary based on the motivation of the child in question, etc.
He probably didn’t have the money. I would think that, and think you did a helpful, kind thing for this kid.
Wow, I’m surprised by how many people are bothered by this! Maybe I’m just a renegade, but stuff like that doesn’t bother me at all. I routinely sneak food into the movie theater, skipped school in high school, etc. Never shoplifted though, so not a totally lost cause.
I probably would have just said, “Sure, just don’t get caught.” and gone about by business unless someone called us out on the plan. But then, I don’t have teenagers to set an example for.
I’ll also add one more possible motivation for the teenager. He might have just been embarrassed/unsure of himself to be alone when most everyone else was with a family, and latched onto Rob so that he could be part of a group. In that case it would have nothing to do with the money, but more a sense of belonging, which is very important for teenagers.
I just wanted to note my support of the point, that some others have raised, that the kid in tis situation may have been put there by his parents.
When I was a kid, my parents often dropped me off places without the money/food/supplies that were required. I was expected to either (somehow) provide my own or mooch off of another family. I was embarrased and would usually try to get by on my own, spend my own money if if i had any/just not eat because I didn’t have a lunch/hope no one would notice that I didn’t bring appropriate clothing/equipment. My point is, while I would never have had the audacity to ask a friend’s parent outright to get me into an event as part of their family, I was so grateful to the many who did just that without my asking them too. And, when you don’t have three dollars, it is embarrassing to have anyone find out. So, I would suggest saying to the boy “I can get your ticket, if you don’t have the cash on you?”
I don’t have anything to add to the answers, as there have been some very good ones.
However, this reminds me of a situation I found myself in when I was 9 years old. I was at church with my family, but church had ended and I was playing with a girlfriend. We stumbled upon a package of cupcakes that was left in a classroom, clearly leftovers from a Sunday School class. My friend suggested we each take a cupcake, and as 9 year olds do, I wanted a cupcake and without thinking anything about it, I took one! Later, when driving home with my family, somehow I mentioned I had eaten this cupcake, and my parents started asking questions. As I answered, I still remember how it suddenly dawned on me that was I was describing was stealing! My parents thought so too. I ended up writing to that particular SS teacher and apologizing, and sent $1 to pay for my cupcake. I still remember the day I got a letter back from that teacher, thanking me for my honestly, and returning the $1 back to me! I got to keep my money but sure felt a whole lot better! And I learned an important lesson. For what it’s worth, just thought I’d share…. :-)
Hi, This comment most likely won’t show up on your blog. I just linked to your blog from another one, and I don’t actually know you.
And, I haven’t read the many comments above. However, it seems that a few comments agree with allowing your child’s friend to, well, lie or freeload. What kind of lesson is that? I’m certain that wasn’t your point.
So, here are a few quick thoughts:
First, our church sometimes has events that require ‘$10 per adult and $1 per child; maximum $12 per family’. Hmm. So, a single person with one child pays $11. A couple with one child pays $12. Why don’t we charge $5 or $6 per adult, and $1-$2 per child over 2 years old? AND more importantly, provide a private and respectful way for lower income families to also attend?
I’m certain that most or all of us truly love to see the kids. However, why should single parents pay SO much more than two parent families? And no, I’m not a single parent.
Secondly, why encourage your child’s friend to get in free? Did he not have $3? If so, certainly offer to pay for him. Perhaps he can babysit for 15-30 minutes in order to earn $3?
Finally, would you, or your child’s friend’s parents, lie in order so that their small child can attend ________ event for free? Children under 5 years old get in free. He / she is VERY VERY tall for his / her age. I’ll just say that my child is 3. That would be unethical, right??
Oh, just re-read your statement that ‘it’s important to note that I don’t have authority over the behavior of the teenager involved.’
This might be true – after all, he isn’t your child.
However, you do have authority over your behavior, and over the guidance that this provides to your children and to their friend.
Again, wow – a teenager?
Not judging – though my comment probably seems to be rather judgmental. Just suggesting that we as adults have choices to make. In this case, you didn’t seem to know whether your choice was the best. If you think it was, then that’s aok.
I haven’t read all the comments but I am thinking (now, in the comfort of my own home and not on the spot with pressure) that I would say “How about we go and ask if that is ok”.
That way, the clerk can be the one to say “no” and you can deal with alternative arrangements.
Or “yes” and you can be thoroughly grateful for the grace bestowed upon you!
:D