Hi Swistle! I can’t believe I FINALLY get to email you a baby name question. Hooray!
I’m Julia, husband is Niall. Baby Clover (nickname) is due 10/16/16. Surname is Faygan (spelled without the y).
So far we seem to be doing okay with naming discussions. Nobody has a hill to die on, YET. We don’t know the sex of the baby but we will find out in about 2 weeks (hopefully!!!), so it seems like we’re in a first name holding pattern until then– discussions are pretty hypothetical.
My surname is G0dl3y (but obviously spelled with letters instead of numbers). I haven’t legally changed my surname and I’m not sure if I’m going to, but I’ve adopted Faygan as my stage name. The baby will get Niall’s last name, even though mine is clearly better. He moved to California from Ireland away from his whole family and he’s putting down roots here and making it his home and having a family here, and oh fine the baby gets your last name.
Niall did agree to having G0dl3y be a middle name for this child and any others we may have. AND he also told me, and I quote, “The baby can have as many middle names as you want.”
I think he meant it as somewhat of a joke, because he doesn’t care about middle names, but I’m taking this and running with it. I have a whole list of potential middle names.
And this brings me to my question (finally)– How many middle names is too many?
To be clear, this is not an OPINION question. What I want to know is, logistically and legally speaking, what is the maximum number of middle names a person can have? I’ve tried to look it up online, but I keep getting suckered into message boards where people ask “can I give my baby three middle names?” and the responses vary from “Sure! Give you kid as many names as you want” to “What are you, BRITISH ROYALTY?” There seems to be some consensus that two middle names is good/great/fine, but three is COMPLETELY UNREASONABLE.
(Why, though? Who cares? How is it hurting you if someone’s child has two or zero or seven middle names? I like middle names. I think they’re decorative. But I digress.)So, anyway. I’m not interested in reading a comment war about what a terrible mother I am if I saddle my child with four or five middle names. What I want to know is, CAN I? How big are the name spaces on the baby’s birth certificate? Where do I write multiple middle names? Do I have to do something extra in order to add extra names? I’m fine with doing that, but I’d rather know now than ask some harassed hospital personnel when I’m exhausted and post-childbirth. Is the child going to have to write ALL of his/her names on legal forms or can he/she choose a favorite and stick with that one for forms and keep the others for decoration?
Just for fun, here are some of the middle names I’ve got in mind:
Stoneburner- my grandmother’s maiden name. I used to think it would make an awesome first name for a boy, but after living in SF it just seems to give off too much of a stonery or pottheadsih vibe.
Amethyst- from one of my favorite books, The Ordinary Princess. I’ve always loved the name and it REMINDS me of my grandmother because the book makes me think of her.
Raffetto- My mother’s maiden name. I had thought about it as a first name for a boy, but I don’t love the nicknames Ralph or Raffy, so… nah.
David, John, Robert, Charles- Niall’s and my fathers’ and grandfathers’ names.
Jane, Frances, Kathleen, Maureen, Marie, Eve, Florence – Niall’s and my grandmothers’ and mothers’ first and middle names.
Clover- I actually like it as a first name, but it might be better as a middle name.
Rainbow- Niall said “Why don’t we just call the baby Clover?” as a joke and I perked up and said “Great! Sure!” and then he backpedaled. So then I jokingly suggested Rainbow, which I really do like.
Poppy- Very close to my heart as a Californian.
Athlone- Niall’s town in Ireland where he grew up.
Okay, so now just imagine for a moment wee baby boy __________ Stoneburner Charles Clover G0dl3y Faygan. Or little baby girl __________ Frances Florence Rainbow Kathleen G0dl3y Faygan. HOW ADORABLE IS THAT? (Very. It’s very adorable. Somebody come with me on this.)
Thank you for your help!!
Love,
Jules
So! I did not know the answer to this. And when I tried to find out the answer, I too got distracted by a bunch of comments sections filled with people saying what they THOUGHT was true, or thought SHOULD be true, rather than what they had reason to KNOW was true. Typically the comments section of a name blog is (and should be) filled with opinions, but what is needed here is a gear-change into FACTS. Here are the facts I have so far:
Birth certificates and their application forms vary by state. Each state has their own way of doing it. In my state, I was very annoyed to find that they could not print my full name on my children’s birth certificates, because they will print only one middle name in the field for parent name, and I have two. This drives me crazy. But anyway, here’s the baby name field for a baby born in California:
Not a whole lot of space. I think you could squeeze four middle names in there if you wrote small. After that, I think you’d have to ask for help from the person who assists parents with the form, and hope you got a helpful, experienced, problem-solving type of clerk instead of a stubborn, inflexible type of clerk. Some states have their forms available online, to be partially filled out ahead of time. This seems like a great idea if you want to practice writing tiny. Also, I vote that your husband be put in charge of being firm yet charming with any clerk who proves stubborn. Although I’ll add that exhausted postpartum crying can be a very effective technique.
Furthermore, I looked up images for “California birth certificate,” and it looks to me as if the printed certificate looks very similar to the application:
It looks to me as if the child’s legal birth certificate will not have room for multiple middle names. I don’t know what they’ll do instead. Maybe just print the first one? Maybe print as many letters as will fit in the field? But I think it’s likely that the birth certificate would not show all the middle names, which I find disappointing.
Here is the second fact, and this is the one that will be a little difficult for many of us to hear: according to the United States government, middle names are not part of a person’s legal name. This also applies to suffixes such as Jr., III, IV: they’re not part of the legal name, even though they’re permitted to appear on legal documents. You can put them wherever you want, but legally-speaking they’re only decorative. This means that the government takes no official stance on how many middle names your child may have. This is a little odd coming from an entity that cares what color pen you use to fill out the forms, but okay.
And it’s good news, in that it means you are not legally prevented from using four or five middle names. It’s also bad news, in that the government is not motivated to get it right or help you get it right. On the page I just linked to, it literally says that it does not matter if the middle name(s) or suffix(es) are incorrect or omitted on government forms and cards. It may matter to the bank, or it may matter to a particular government clerk who mistakenly thinks it matters, but it does not matter to the government itself.
So no, the child will not have to use all middle names on all forms, though he or she is very likely to regularly run into problems with people who think consistency IS required. Many forms allow for only one middle initial; I’d recommend picking one to consistently default to.
In the early stages of this research, while still bogged down in sites full of people saying what they THOUGHT about multiple middle names, I asked Paul to help me figure out how to figure this out. He found two interesting things to contribute:
1. One of Uma Thurman’s children has many middle names: Rosalind Arusha Arkadina Altalune Florence Thurman-Busson. So she must have found a way to fill out the form.
2. There’s also this gentleman, whose name is so long it is often written with an “etc.” in it.
Name update:
Hi Swistle!
I’ve been meaning to send this for ages, but things kind of got away from me.
“Baby Clover” was born on 10/14/16 after 43 hours of labor (oof). His name (are you ready for it?) is Tiernan Jack Stoneburner G0dl3y Faygan.
Niall and I had agreed on the first name Tiernan a couple of months before his birth, but managed to keep it a secret until he was born (we had to make SURE that was his name once we got a look at him on the outside). We wanted something Irish that wouldn’t be too terribly difficult to pronounce or spell.
Jack is for Niall’s middle name (John), his dad’s name (John), and his grandfather (Jack).
Stoneburner is my grandmother’s maiden name.
G0dl3y is my last name, but it is one of Tiernan’s middle names, not a surname.
In case you are wondering, ‘Jack Stoneburner G0dl3y’ represents the maximum number of middle name characters you can have on a birth certificate (in CA)! The lady doing our forms told us we would probably have to drop one of Tiernan’s middle names (which caused newly postpartum me to weep), but they all ended up juuuuuust fitting! Whew.Thank you so much for all your help!
Jules
“[A]ccording to the United States government, middle names are not part of a person’s legal name”–WHAT?!?!?!?! Well this is really a shock. I have two middle names, as I have been told my whole life, and I have never questioned this for a second but have also suddenly realized that I have never been provided with a single, standard way to represent these two names on forms, etc. For example, I have filled out plenty of forms where I was made to squish both names into a single box, and (though I have always taken care to print them accurately, including a space in between them) I have seen many documents treat them as though that’s what they are, one single ridiculous word–so I guess it makes sense, the government’s not recognizing them as part of my name at all. Mind blown!
I know this isn’t fact and thereby probably not all that helpful. But…
My husband has 2 middle names. (Born in a different country than the US.) Some of his legal US documents (naturalization certificate, passport) have both middle names printed in that “middle name” space; others (driver’s license) have just one, but he picked which one to put there. In practice, he generally drops the second middle when filling out forms, because it’s just easier and he doesn’t really care about his middles.
Based on that, I’d say it’s safe to assume that your child will not be required to use all 12 middle names on every legal document for the rest of their life.
Anecdotal, but I know a 30-something year old woman in California who has at least three, and I think it’s actually 4 or 5 middle names, all given to her by her parents rather than added on when she got married. I have never asked to see her birth certificate though = /.
Alright, so she has 5 middle names…28 letters in all, not counting the spaces. Still not sure how it got handled paperwork-wise though, or if anything has changed since things have gotten more computerized.
WAIT! WHAT? Middle names are literally meaningless? Does this mean that I just give myself a new middle name to use and it wouldn’t matter one iota? I thought the whole point of names was to differentiate oneself from everyone else, and if middle names don’t even count, then what is the point? *SIGH
I wouldn’t say they’re literally meaningless: as you mention, they can be used to differentiate between different people. And middle names still ARE your names, even though the government doesn’t care about them.
Middle name matters❤️
My brother has two middle names, my sons have two middle names, and it was common in my grandfather’s family to have two middle names for both his brothers and sisters. My brother was upset for a period of time when he had to pick because there was only space for one. So far for my sons I’ve been able to have both listed. We also accidentally did the same starting initial of the middle names for our first born, so we consciously continued that so that it could work as a stand in for both on those forms that simply want a middle initial. You could always do a double first name in order to get some of the names listed and have the effect of two middle names. It seems more acceptable for double first rather than double middle.
We gave our firstborn two middles and even though we had room to put both middles on the birth certificate and Social Security card, on things like her school forms, they usually ask for one middle initial, and we just use the initial of her first middle name. I think you’re probably going to HAVE to ask the birth certificate person at the hospital what you’re supposed to do, especially if you have more than two middles, so be prepared to do that. It’s very likely you won’t be the first parents to ask them that question.
Seems that the facts say use however many you want. I would suggest, however, that you put as the first middle name the one that you’d like to see regularly and most-often used.
That way, if a single middle name or initial is used in the future, either through convenience, government personnel laziness, or deliberate choice by your child, it will be the one that you most wanted.
I found the same disappointing news Swistle did when I went to the Social Security office to legally change my name (not only taking my husband’s last name but also a request to replace my given middle name with my maiden name). They did not acknowledge that part of the form, mentioned that the “government” doesn’t care about middle names when I asked, and flat out only changed my last name. Everywhere else – passport, drivers license, bank, credit cards were happy to oblige. Except for social security and therefore my legal name for work purposes, taxes, etc. I would hope that the first time a name is issued there would be a bit more care, perhaps the people issuing newborn social security numbers are generally happier with their job than those face to face with the masses asking for what may seem to them an insignificant change. However, I would prepare that only the first of many middle names may be represented in the social security card and that your child may not be able to choose their favorite later in life, legally at least.
I would hesitate to call middle names simply decorative, regardless of what the official position is. I have heard of people getting onto no-fly lists because they have the same first/middle/last as someone else. I also queried law enforcement types I know, and they all agreed that someone with Clover X. Lastname on their driver’s license would have problems if other forms of ID (passport, checks, credit cards, etc) were printed with Clover R. Lastname. So, I think if you decide to do this, consistency would have to be the key. This would mean that he/she would not get to pick for themselves which middle name would be the default-you’ll need to do that when he/she is still young. Another option would be to simply plan on always using all of the middle initials in the same order. So something like John S.C.C.G. Faygen and then always stick with it. Sidenote-how cute would it be if the middle initials actually spelled a name?
It also occurred to me that you may want to consider if you want more kids later. If you use up all of your favorite names as middles for this baby, you might struggle to come up with middles for the next. If you do want more kids and you don’t think you’ll have a problem coming up with a bunch of middle names for subsequent kids, you may also want to think about if you would want each child to have some family names as middles. If it would be important for you that all children have a family name as at least one of the middles, it’d be a good idea to keep some of the family names in reserve.
And, in thinking about ways to reduce some of the hassle of multiple middles, you could move your surname out of the middle position and give all of your children 2 last names. This could be done with or without the hyphen. At the very least, it would free up more space in that tiny middle name box on the form.
Finally, another thought I had was if you will be seeking dual citizenship for your children. If you think you might (or think there is even an outside chance your child would want to pursue it as an adult) if might be a good idea to look into how the process for multiple middle names in Ireland works.
Shoot, I got so distracted thinking about the multiple middle name issue I forgot to add that I love the name Clover. I think it would be adorable on a little girl.
My son has two middle names, John + my maiden name. Unfortunately, maiden name is very long–12 letters. When we filled out his birth certificate, that was fine. However, the Social Security Administration limited us to 16 characters. John + maiden name, with a space in between, is 17 characters. We were basically asked how we wanted to change his name to make it 16 characters–lose the last letter, use initials, no space in between, etc. So, you might be able to have as many middle names as you want as long as they are less than 16 total characters.
If you don’t mind, what state was this in?
Oh nevermind! SSA ! I was a thinking a state org said this
Since we’re not giving opinions on the number of middle names, I’ll give my opinion on the ORDER of them. Given your name choices, I prefer a more whimsical first name with family/last names as the middle. Example: Amethyst Jane Florence Go0dl3y Faygan. That’s beyond adorable. I agree with you that Stoneburner, while a rockin’ middle, is not so great as a first — not because of pothead vibes, but because if I saw “Faygan, Stoneburner” on a class list, I simply wouldn’t believe it. I’d assume it was a data-entry error. That would have to get tiring over the course of his life. Raffetto, on the other hand, would make a great first name — how about Etto as a nn? Rainbow makes me think of the “rainbow baby” concept.
I agree with the other commenters: use as many middle names as you want, but maybe have one “default” middle name that you use on forms where you can only put down one.
I LOVE the idea of multiple middle names. LOVE LOVE LOVE. Even if they don’t legally count for anything, there are plenty of situations in which you’d be able to use them all. Graduations, for example! Middle names almost always appear on college and high school diplomas, and in my experience whoever is calling the names at graduation will read whatever middle name you write on the form. Or birth announcements! Or even wedding invitations (should he or she choose to get married)! I say use them ALL.
This is an AWESOME thread. First, because I have a daughter named Clover and love it. You should use it. Second, because I’ve long thought that I should start the tradition of giving my children a second middle name when they turn twelve as a maturation ritual. All my children have family honor middles, which I am very happy about, but when you are picking a name you don’t know your child yet. A second middle when they are older to reflect something wonderful that you see in them would be a fun tradition. A little gift I give them so they know how wonderful I think they are. Since the government doesn’t care anyway, I could add the second middle without having to change anything legally. Fabulous.
I already picked my oldest child’s new middle: Muse, because she is beyond creative. Miriam Nicole Muse. My boy who is turning 12 soon would become Cowen Timothy Moroni (Moroni is his favorite scripture hero and would basically mean defender of the faith in this situation). My 9 year old would become Emeline Beckie Sunshine–because she’s so happy all the time and because book-worm doesn’t make a good name. :) The rest of the kids are harder, but I have time.
I love this so much!!!!
Oh this is awesome!
LOVE this!
Hmm, I legally changed my name in Massachusetts – same last name, new first and middle. My new middle name was printed on the forms, so I assumed that it did “matter” to the government.
My grandmother was given the middle initial of “F” and throughout her life she used to make up different names for the F to stand for (Fern, Frances, Fanny, etc).
After living in the SF bay area, I would also have to say NOOOO to Stoneburner. ;)
Also, I recently heard the name of my friend’s friend’s baby (this is real I swear):
El@r@ Gr@y L@ser B@am (lastname) (lastname) Expl0si0n.
Funny story. When I was changing my name after marriage, I was not paying attention filling out forms. When I received new social security card, I managed to change my middle name from Alane to A. Just A, no period, no nothing. I have not cared enough to change it back.
Lol my old boss actually did this too but on purpose.
It’s been confusing sometimes when people have insisted on needing her “full middle name”.. To which the answer is still “just m” but otherwise fine!
When I got married last year and went to social security to change my last name, they also told me that middle names are part of your legal name because I wanted to move my maiden name to a second middle name. They didn’t care that I did that, but they group first and middle name together and I believe give you 24 characters for the combination. Even though the first, middle, middle I wanted was 22 characters, they would have ended up cutting off the last 2 letters so I had to make my original middle name just an initial. So on legal documents it’s like Jane K. Smith White (not my actual name). Anyway, so I think you can say your child has as many middle names as you want to give them but on legal documents they are only going to allow so many letters.
Glad to see I may have just gotten someone on a bad day at my social security office. :)
You only get 16 characters for the first, 16 for the middle, and 21 for the last in Social Security’s records. You can use letters, spaces, hyphens, and apostrophes: no other characters. See https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0110205125. The card itself has 26 lines for first and middle, and 26 for last and suffixes, according to https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0110205120 so if the first + middle are too long, middle(s) may be omitted.
I think it would be a lot easier to have a legal name that could be the same on the birth certificate, Social Security records, and the SS card itself. Reading about people tripped up by voter ID laws shows how these things can really haunt you down the road.
But what you CALL your baby–that could have as many names as you want! So maybe you could arrange all the names you like into a pleasing acronym for the official documents and know that the middle name actually spells out a whole bunch more. That’s what I’d do.
Examples: Clover Sara Fagan (Sara= Stoneburner Amethyst Raffetto/Rainbow Athlone)
Robert Jeff Fagan (Jeff= John Eve Frances Florence)
I love this idea! How amazing would it be to have a secret code in your name? In addition to Sara and Jeff, you could do Emma (Eve Maureen Marie Amethyst), Jack (John Athlone Clover Kathleen), James (John Athlone Marie Eve Stoneburner)… Peak (Poppy Eve Amethyst Kathleen), so many more.
My middle initial growing up was L—just L—and the idea was I’d choose my own when I grew up, because my mother said choosing a first name was hard enough, thanks. We played with it so much, and ultimately ended up joking it stood for “Lacy Magee”. But I’ve never changed it, because I’ve never found anything I liked as much as L alone.
I babysat kids who had 3 middle names, incl their father’s surname (because all agreed their mother’s was better). Also they were both named after knights, with literary and familial honor names in the middle.
This was covered on an episode of that old show, “The Dick Van Dyke Show”. Their son Ritchie found his birth certificate and learned his middle name was Rosebud. It turned out to be an acronym for all of the middle names the grandparents wanted: Robert Oscar Sam Edward Benjamin Ulysses David (thanks Google, I only remembered Ulysses).
I remember listening to a Freakonomics podcast episode on names and there was a sociologist who named his son Yo Xing Heyno Augustus Eisner Alexander Weiser Knuckles Jeremijenko-Conley. That’s seven middle names!
(P.S. it’s awesome to see you on here, Jules! Congratulations on the pregnancy! I sent you a pair of orange socks once, many years ago…)
Also, have you heard of the Tollemache-Tollemaches? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Tollemache
No Latinx readers of this blog? I’ll have to get in touch with my friends who have something like five middle names. I *think* that basically for most of them, anyway, only the first middle name is listed on their government forms and the rest are just what they use culturally. That said, I’ll have to check in with them and see.
But. BUT.
What do you mean the government DOES NOT CARE?
I KNOW. It is quite upsetting.
Oh my gosh, this reminds me of an episode of the Dick Van Dyke Show (I’m only 34 but obsessed with Dick Van Dyke) in which Richie finds out his middle name is Rosebud. ROSEBUD!
From wikipedia: his middle name is an acronym for “Robert Oscar Sam Edward Benjamin Ulysses David,” all the names suggested by members of Rob and Laura’s families in the episode “What’s in a Middle Name?”.
An acronym is an option for the forms – then you could expand the names when you tell people your child’s name!
I live in the state of Oklahoma and for two years I filled out the Birth Certificates on the maternity ward. Right after I was hired everything became done electronically, I remember that this IS a character limit but I cannot remember what it is. My son has two middle names consisting of 16 letters including a space.
One of my daughters has two middle names, but together her middle names sound like three different names (like Jane Marybeth, but those aren’t her actual middle names). I think having more than one is fine. Keep in mind that if you want to have more kids, you might not want to use all your favorites on your first baby. It might become difficult to find names you like for additional children. It was for us, we have four daughters.
Congratulations, I’m so happy for you!
I haven’t read all of the comments so I hope this isn’t a repeat of anything but I have 3 middle names! Four if you count my maiden name (which is complicated and Polish so I often drop it…). I consider them all part of my name. Only one middle name was on my birth certificate, and I kept just that middle name (it’s meaningful to the family) when I changed my name officially when I got married. But I also don’t regard what the government says too much :P We got married in a church one day, but our marriage papers say a date 14 days later. We didn’t get around to sending them in until after our honeymoon. Do I think we went on our honeymoon unmarried? No way.
Anyway, I was born with a middle name. It’s my mom’s middle name and part of my aunt’s name. Confirmation is pretty serious in our faith tradition. That’s where name #2 happened. I got confirmed and had to write an essay about why I wanted the name I chose and that had to be approved by the bishop and all this stuff. Then we had this weird separation in our family and I got confirmed again in another place, secretly (half of my family still doesn’t know this happened…). But I got name #3 there. I know I could have used the same name twice, but I wanted to represent it somehow because I’m weird. And because I like names.
Anyway, for most of my life now, I’ve had 3 middle names. I guess that isn’t the same as my parents giving me all 3 at birth ..but most of my family uses their confirmation names as a second middle name very sincerely. Some folks drop their original middle name when they get confirmed and use their confirmation name instead ..so those people only have one.
Buuuut I think you should go for it. It would be fun. When people ask the kiddo for his/her middle name, they can just respond with the one they like best and leave it at that. No one is going to force them into telling the rest because they probably won’t even know the others exist until he/she gets their own wikipedia page ;)
I know you didn’t ask for suggestions but since you like Raffetto but not Ralph have you thought of Rafe (Rayf). I know a little chap by that name and I think it is great.
Not relevant here, but FYI in New Zealand the legal limit for first middle/s and last names is 100 characters including spaces & hyphens.
I think you should use as many as you want, unless you’re planning more children and then I think you shouldn’t use all your favourites up in one go. I do love the idea of using the initials to spell out another name for paperwork purposes.